1258 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

In Exile wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
I never said the Dalish should go to war with all humans. I said that if they want land of their own, they'll have to seize it themselves, or give someone with power a very good reason to give them land. Going to war against one group of humans is not the same as going to war with all humans. Humans themselves war with each other more than other races.

For the Dalish to take lands it'll mean slavery or ethnic cleansing. How exactly the rest of the human nations in Thedas see that would be pretty iffy. If there's an expansionist neighbour, the Dalish's conquest is a pretty good justification for basically annexing the territor (the elves are attacking, we're here to save our fellow humans! the land is in disorder, we'll just keep troops here to maintain order! keeping you safe is costly, pay us taxes!). 

It seems to me that for the Dalish to suceed in carving out a homeland for themselves, they'll need political and military backing from at least some powerful nations. 

At any rate, I do agree with the general tenor of the rest of your post. 

It would'nt be slavery or ethnic cleansing if the elves take over a land humans barely inhabit.Of course the downside to this is the humans will never leave them alone once the Dalish establish a home on those lands.

[LobselVith8]

Threat300 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I actually disagree with that. Since when are the Wardens Andrastian? 

They converted during the 2nd blight when drakon saved the anderfels from destruction.

Given that present day Wardens consist of dwarves, Dalish, and (rumored) Tal-Vashoth, it's not an organization that mandates conversion to the Andrastian faith, it doesn't currently focus on spreading the faith of Andraste, nor is it currently a branch of the Chantry of Andraste.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
In which you and I will simply have to disagree on the importance of the Dalish signing a treaty in the wake of all they lost. The only group that fights the darkspawn 24/7 are the dwarves; I give them tremendous credit for that.

The dwarves don't have a lot of choice either. And yeah, we can disagree on the Dalish agreeing to help fend off the apocalypse when it comes about, as if it was somehow in their best interest to let the darkspawn win. 

They're politically neutral (with a few obvious exceptions) and conversion to the Chantry isn't mandated for their members; non-Andrastians aren't expected to give up their culture or religion to be a member.

Right. I'm not disagreeing with you here, I just think it's funny that you see the Wardens as being non-Andrastian. 

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're not. They may have been started by the Chantry a few centuries, yet they are no longer a part of it nor do they answer to it anymore; I thought the fact blood mages/apostates were allowed in their ranks made it fairly obvious, Exile. 

They're officially Andrastian. They're not non-demoninational. Tevinter allows blood magic too, but that doesn't somehow stop them from being Andrastian. 

[Vandicus]

In Exile wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
I never said the Dalish should go to war with all humans. I said that if they want land of their own, they'll have to seize it themselves, or give someone with power a very good reason to give them land. Going to war against one group of humans is not the same as going to war with all humans. Humans themselves war with each other more than other races.

For the Dalish to take lands it'll mean slavery or ethnic cleansing. How exactly the rest of the human nations in Thedas see that would be pretty iffy. If there's an expansionist neighbour, the Dalish's conquest is a pretty good justification for basically annexing the territor (the elves are attacking, we're here to save our fellow humans! the land is in disorder, we'll just keep troops here to maintain order! keeping you safe is costly, pay us taxes!). 

It seems to me that for the Dalish to suceed in carving out a homeland for themselves, they'll need political and military backing from at least some powerful nations. 

At any rate, I do agree with the general tenor of the rest of your post. 

Depends how taking works. For instance, it seems possible for city elves in Kirkwall and Fereldan to own property. The elves living in most places presumably already own property, and the issue here is not one of elves working as migrant farmers. I was referring to what is essentially a change in leadership. The problem seems to be that the law and local citizens treat elves as second-class citizens. An elven nation, is not necessarily a nation entirely composed of elves. Likewise, the human nations, as far as we've seen, all have populations of elves inside them. So no ethnic cleansing or slavery necessary. Well, being Dalish, I'm sure they'd do it anyways. But if it were regular, sane, rational elves who wanted to establish a country ruled by elves, there wouldn't necessarily be slavery or ethnic cleansing.


As for big nations eating the small nations, I imagine that it'd be about as hard for the elves as it is for Kirkwall to maintain its independence from Orlais. Sovereignty isn't the easiest thing in the world to acquire, and then hold.

Modifié par Vandicus, 18 janvier 2014 - 10:31 .

[cjones91]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Most humans are rude jerkasses to elves so it kind of evens out IMO.Besides not all Dalish are hostile to humans since some are willing to trade goods with them.

[In Exile]

Vandicus wrote...
Depends how taking works. For instance, it seems possible for city elves in Kirkwall and Fereldan to own property. I was referring to what is essentially a change in leadership. The problem seems to be that the law and local citizens treat elves as second-class citizens. An elven nation, is not necessarily a nation entirely composed of elves. Likewise, the human nations, as far as we've seen, all have populations of elves inside them. So no ethnic cleansing or slavery necessary. Well, being Dalish, I'm sure they'd do it anyways. But if it were regular, sane, rational elves who wanted to establish a country ruled by elves, there wouldn't necessarily be slavery or ethnic cleansing.

Right, I agree with you that an elven-nation doesn't require any of these things, but for the Dalish to take lands, it's going to have to be by military conquest. It's not as if they're open to having CEs as part of their elven utopia without converting them to their culture and religion, so the idea they'd tolerate humans around is pretty far-fetched.

As for big nations eating the small nations, I imagine that it'd be about as hard for the elves as it is for Kirkwall to maintain its independence from Orlais. Sovereignty isn't the easiest thing in the world to acquire, and then hold. 

Yeah, agreed, but the Dalish aren't the type to swear fealty to a place like Orlais in return for some measure of autonomy. 

[KiwiQuiche]

In Exile wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're not. They may have been started by the Chantry a few centuries, yet they are no longer a part of it nor do they answer to it anymore; I thought the fact blood mages/apostates were allowed in their ranks made it fairly obvious, Exile. 

They're officially Andrastian. They're not non-demoninational. Tevinter allows blood magic too, but that doesn't somehow stop them from being Andrastian. 

No they aren't. As a Warden I could tell the Chantry to stuff it or insult their members. You can allow Dalish elves to become Wardens; they don't convert. Neither do dwarves or apostates. The Chantry may have a self entitled attitude as usual towards the Wardens, but the Warden's do not answer to them.

Also, the Tevinter Chantry follows a different interpretation of the Chant; they aren't the same as the rest of Thedas.

cjones91 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As
some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and
rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their
image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous
elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting
insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's
'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Most humans are
rude jerkasses to elves so it kind of evens out IMO.Besides not all
Dalish are hostile to humans since some are willing to trade goods with
them.

Most are incredibly rude, though. They could remain standoffish and cold, but many are outright hostile and insult you. You shouldn't delibertly provoke people. Humans can be rude, yes, but the Dalish are extremely racist and stuck up in return. If they remained fairly neutral i.e didn't intentionally verbally attack you, then people would probably be less hostile towards them.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 18 janvier 2014 - 10:36 .

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Most humans are rude jerkasses to elves so it kind of evens out IMO.Besides not all Dalish are hostile to humans since some are willing to trade goods with them.

Every Dalish first encounter involves the word shemlen. Not every first encounter between a city elf and a human involves either knifeears or shem in the conversation.

Now it might be that the Dalish we met are more obsessed with their Aryanism(city elves aren't blond or blue-eyed enough to be Dalish) than the norm, but it seems that they go past the line of rational caution into actively antagonizing anyone who isn't Aryan enough.

[Cainhurst Crow]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

In Exile wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're not. They may have been started by the Chantry a few centuries, yet they are no longer a part of it nor do they answer to it anymore; I thought the fact blood mages/apostates were allowed in their ranks made it fairly obvious, Exile. 

They're officially Andrastian. They're not non-demoninational. Tevinter allows blood magic too, but that doesn't somehow stop them from being Andrastian. 

No they aren't. As a Warden I could tell the Chantry to stuff it or insult their members. You can allow Dalish elves to become Wardens; they don't convert. Neither do dwarves or apostates. The Chantry may have a self entitled attitude as usual towards the Wardens, but the Warden's do not answer to them.

Also, the Tevinter Chantry follows a different interpretation of the Chant; they aren't the same as the rest of Thedas.

You mean your freshly recruited and didn't even get a week of actual warden guidance warden?

[LobselVith8]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Humans hunt them down or threaten them to convert, as we know from Merrill mentioning templars hunting them as part of the reason for their nomadic existence (and Ariane stopped a templar who hunted her clan down) and the treatment of the Sabrae clan by Andrastians. That isn't exactly conducive for the People to welcome humans with open arms. However, it's not like this is always the case; the historical Aveline was adopted by the Dalish, and Arianni's son was taken in (if Feynriel goes to the clan), despite technically being human.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Most humans are rude jerkasses to elves so it kind of evens out IMO.Besides not all Dalish are hostile to humans since some are willing to trade goods with them.

Every Dalish first encounter involves the word shemlen. Not every first encounter between a city elf and a human involves either knifeears or shem in the conversation.

Now it might be that the Dalish we met are more obsessed with their Aryanism(city elves aren't blond or blue-eyed enough to be Dalish) than the norm, but it seems that they go past the line of rational caution into actively antagonizing anyone who isn't Aryan enough.

And in human lands it's perfectly okay to kidnap elven women in broad daylight so you can rape them(bonus points if the city guard lends a helping hand).Like I said before the humans have been bigger ****s to elves than vice versa.

[KiwiQuiche]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

In Exile wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're not. They may have been started by the Chantry a few centuries, yet they are no longer a part of it nor do they answer to it anymore; I thought the fact blood mages/apostates were allowed in their ranks made it fairly obvious, Exile. 

They're officially Andrastian. They're not non-demoninational. Tevinter allows blood magic too, but that doesn't somehow stop them from being Andrastian. 

No they aren't. As a Warden I could tell the Chantry to stuff it or insult their members. You can allow Dalish elves to become Wardens; they don't convert. Neither do dwarves or apostates. The Chantry may have a self entitled attitude as usual towards the Wardens, but the Warden's do not answer to them.

Also, the Tevinter Chantry follows a different interpretation of the Chant; they aren't the same as the rest of Thedas.

You mean your freshly recruited and didn't even get a week of actual warden guidance warden?

And the freshly recruited Warden with no real guidance ended the Blight. Who da thunk it.

[cjones91]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Humans hunt them down or threaten them to convert, as we know from Merrill mentioning templars hunting them as part of the reason for their nomadic existence (and Ariane stopped a templar who hunted her clan down) and the treatment of the Sabrae clan by Andrastians. That isn't exactly conducive for the People to welcome humans with open arms. However, it's not like this is always the case; the historical Aveline was adopted by the Dalish, and Arianni's son was taken in (if Feynriel goes to the clan), despite technically being human.

Don't forget that elves can be raped and murdered without anyone giving a damn either way.

[Vandicus]

MasterScribe wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Their plight is horrible, which is why they're rising up (and good for them). The Dalish still don't have a monopoly on what it means to be elven.

The Dalish are certainly the only hope for what they think elves should be, but that isn't saying very much.

The Dalish elves are the remnants of the Dales, the most recent elven nation. They are effectively the representatives of the elves.

The Grey Wardens didn't have a treaty with any city elves. 

There's no evidence that the number of elves are getting smaller over generations. At most, there's evidence that's happening to the dalish, but  they're not the elves.

As far as we know, an elf breeding with a non-elf produces a child of the non-elf race, which has been the case with every known coupling of this type. This notion alone suggests that they are endangered.

Only if they breed extensively outside their race. In the United States for example, mixed breeds(of which I myself am part of) are outnumbered by most of the other widesweeping ethnic groups we use today. And those populations of "pure" minorities have grown numerically, though not proportional to the overall population.

On a side note, I thought elves could only couple with humans and result in human offspring, has there been confirmed Dwarf/elf or qunari/elf offspring?

[Sir JK]

eluvianix wrote...

I actually disagree with that. Since when are the Wardens Andrastian?

Roughly since emperor Kordilius Drakon I saved their order when he relieved Weisshauppt and defeated the blight armies during the second blight. They officially converted in 1:33 Divine and worked closely together with the Chantry to bring order to Anderfels for the next 50 years.

Sources are WoT page 65 and 66, page 113 and 114 and page 157. Also seen here: http://dragonage.wik.../Second_Blight. Under the "Relief of Weisshauppt"-section.

It might be a very tolerant group and not require much in the way of conversion from it's members, but it's been a thoroughly Andrastian organisation since before the Dales were conquered.

[KiwiQuiche]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Humans hunt them down or threaten them to convert, as we know from Merrill mentioning templars hunting them as part of the reason for their nomadic existence (and Ariane stopped a templar who hunted her clan down) and the treatment of the Sabrae clan by Andrastians. That isn't exactly conducive for the People to welcome humans with open arms. However, it's not like this is always the case; the historical Aveline was adopted by the Dalish, and Arianni's son was taken in (if Feynriel goes to the clan), despite technically being human.

Yeah, the Chantry sucks all over the place.

That's the Chantry's fault, not average joe farmer.

But now with the Chantry burning down they can get a grip on everything.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Threat300 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I actually disagree with that. Since when are the Wardens Andrastian? 

They converted during the 2nd blight when drakon saved the anderfels from destruction.

Given that present day Wardens consist of dwarves, Dalish, and (rumored) Tal-Vashoth, it's not an organization that mandates conversion to the Andrastian faith, it doesn't currently focus on spreading the faith of Andraste, nor is it currently a branch of the Chantry of Andraste.

Id say it depends on the individual, humans like duncan & alistair would be andrastian but a dalish elf warden would not. although it was always weird to me that a dalish warden would say andrastian phrases in dialog alot

[cjones91]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

In Exile wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're not. They may have been started by the Chantry a few centuries, yet they are no longer a part of it nor do they answer to it anymore; I thought the fact blood mages/apostates were allowed in their ranks made it fairly obvious, Exile. 

They're officially Andrastian. They're not non-demoninational. Tevinter allows blood magic too, but that doesn't somehow stop them from being Andrastian. 

No they aren't. As a Warden I could tell the Chantry to stuff it or insult their members. You can allow Dalish elves to become Wardens; they don't convert. Neither do dwarves or apostates. The Chantry may have a self entitled attitude as usual towards the Wardens, but the Warden's do not answer to them.

Also, the Tevinter Chantry follows a different interpretation of the Chant; they aren't the same as the rest of Thedas.

cjones91 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As
some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and
rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their
image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous
elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting
insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's
'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Most humans are
rude jerkasses to elves so it kind of evens out IMO.Besides not all
Dalish are hostile to humans since some are willing to trade goods with
them.

Most are incredibly rude, though. They could remain standoffish and cold, but many are outright hostile and insult you. You shouldn't delibertly provoke people. Humans can be rude, yes, but the Dalish are extremely racist and stuck up in return. If they remained fairly neutral i.e didn't intentionally verbally attack you, then people would probably be less hostile towards them.

Elves in human society are considered to be vermin so it goes both ways.Both sides are jerks to each other but the humans treat the elves as if they were animals.

[AresKeith]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yeah, the Chantry sucks all over the place.

That's the Chantry's fault, not average joe farmer.

But now with the Chantry burning down they can get a grip on everything.

Or we can weed out the corruption in the Chantry, seems quicker

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Most humans are rude jerkasses to elves so it kind of evens out IMO.Besides not all Dalish are hostile to humans since some are willing to trade goods with them.

Every Dalish first encounter involves the word shemlen. Not every first encounter between a city elf and a human involves either knifeears or shem in the conversation.

Now it might be that the Dalish we met are more obsessed with their Aryanism(city elves aren't blond or blue-eyed enough to be Dalish) than the norm, but it seems that they go past the line of rational caution into actively antagonizing anyone who isn't Aryan enough.

And in human lands it's perfectly okay to kidnap elven women in broad daylight so you can rape them(bonus points if the city guard lends a helping hand).Like I said before the humans have been bigger ****s to elves than vice versa.

Humans have done to that to other humans in real life.

OMG, elves are treated as badly by humans as humans treat each other. Clearly the elves have justification to believe that all humans are out to get them, as well as those dirty city elves who live alongside humans. Blood traitors aren't worthy of the presence of a true Dalish. 

Fact of the matter is, jackasses with power act exactly like jackasses with power. No special hate crime sauce necessary. Dalish have exhibited dramatically higher levels of racism than anyone else we've encountered. They are effectively the Tevinter of the elves.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Every Dalish first encounter involves the word shemlen. Not every first encounter between a city elf and a human involves either knifeears or shem in the conversation.

Shemlen is the word for human, as we know from elven lore and elven writings; Andraste is the shemlen prophet, for example. You're thinking of the derogatory slang of shem.

This reminds me of how people misconstrue Merrill's opposition to the word 'demon' when it's cultural and religious distinction of the Andrastian faith that isn't shared by the Dalish.

Vandicus wrote...

Now it might be that the Dalish we met are more obsessed with their Aryanism(city elves aren't blond or blue-eyed enough to be Dalish) than the norm, but it seems that they go past the line of rational caution into actively antagonizing anyone who isn't Aryan enough. 

The Dalish are focused on not surrendering their cultural and religious views to Andrastian society, who outlawed their religion.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 18 janvier 2014 - 10:43 .

[cjones91]

Faerunner wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Humans hunt them down or threaten them to convert, as we know from Merrill mentioning templars hunting them as part of the reason for their nomadic existence (and Ariane stopped a templar who hunted her clan down) and the treatment of the Sabrae clan by Andrastians. That isn't exactly conducive for the People to welcome humans with open arms. However, it's not like this is always the case; the historical Aveline was adopted by the Dalish, and Arianni's son was taken in (if Feynriel goes to the clan), despite technically being human.

Don't forget that elves can be raped and murdered without anyone giving a damn either way.

Yeah, but occasionally they're rude to humans because of the way they've been treated, so that makes them just as bad and deserving of further maltreatment. [/sarcasm]

Not to mention they did'nt help humans out nearly a thousand years so those uppity knife ears deserve what they get.