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[The Elder King]

In Exile wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I have a question for everyone. What alliance/compromise do you believe is more likely to be a choice in DAI, elves-humans or mages-templars?

Technically elves-humans exists, at least sort of between Gaspard and the CEs. 

Yes, but the upcoming book might change things. And I put another question in the edit.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 janvier 2014 - 06:06 .

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

I have two questions for everyone. What alliance/compromise do you believe is more likely to be a choice in DAI, elves-humans (meaning dalish/CE with one of the contender for the Orlesian throne) or mages-templars?

Humans and elves, given the completely opposing goals of the mages and the templars.

hhh89 wrote...

And do you think that in The Masked Empire/DAI it could happen that CE and dalish fight against each other, by allying with Gaspard and Celene? 

I was originally thinking one Orlesian political faction might side with the elves, and the other with the mages, but you could be correct. Although I'm not really all that interested in helping Celene or Gaspard (perhaps due to playing as a Ferelden before, as well as my intention to play as a Dalish mage); I'd completely forgo both if I could focus on helping the elves.

[dragonflight288]

Conscripts would undoubtably return home, since they would still have farms that needed tending to.

And until we have some additional info on Red Templars, and the situation in the Dales in general, then I would say we MIGHT want to postpone the handing it over to Elves and leaving the inhabitants there to genocide.

*bangs head against the wall* You are not listening.

No one has EVER said that the humans would be victims of genocide in the Dales if the elves took over. Lobsel said he doesn't believe any civilians need to die, I have said that I don't see any reason why the elves can't take it back humanely as the humans are abandoning the Dales as a result of a human civil war, add in that there is an elven rebellion already going on.

Giving them land may actually be a large step to restoring world peace.

Facts of the world as of now, the end of Asunder are

1. Orlais is in a civil war between Gaspard and Celene
2. The elves in Orlais are rebelling
3. Mages and Templars are at war over idealogical differences and where mages exist in the world
4. The Chantry has lost control of all its armed forces.
5. The humans in the dales are leaving the Dales.

This seems like the best time to give elves their land in a humane, no-killing-lots-of-people fashion.

[Pasquale1234]

dragonflight288 wrote...

They are total isolationists. They believe that the longer they stay apart from humans, the closer they can get to their lost 'immortality.'

This is the reason they cannot escape their plight.  Unless and until they get past this barrier, and learn to live harmoniously - or at the very least, maintain diplomatic relationships - with humans, they will continue to be nomadic squatters.

I'm not sure what it is about human contact that they think causes them to lose their mythical immortaility, but I've always found some of the back and forth traveling fairly interesting.  The Warden and Hawke are allowed into their camps, so does that mean those clans are 're-infected'?  They also allow Feynriel and Ariana to join them, and invite Merrill to return, even though they have lived amongst humans and could potentially be carriers.

This isolationism, along with their antagonistic attitiudes toward humans, postures them as racists, and noone will be able to support or assist them until they are willing to change.

As I've mentioned before in this thread, I've played some Cousland Wardens who would have gone to bat for them - set aside some land in Highever and / or Amaranthine, and allowed them to settle, protecting their rights to practice their culture, religion, and magic, and helped them toward economic success.  It is their isolationism that prevents them from taking any such place in society.

[LobselVith8]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

They are total isolationists. They believe that the longer they stay apart from humans, the closer they can get to their lost 'immortality.'

This is the reason they cannot escape their plight.  Unless and until they get past this barrier, and learn to live harmoniously - or at the very least, maintain diplomatic relationships - with humans, they will continue to be nomadic squatters. 

I think the elven pantheon being outlawed by Chantry law and free mages being illegal are factors that play into the schism between the Dalish and the human kingdoms. It's easier said than done to establish diplomatic relations with nations where your religious beliefs alone make you an outlaw.

[The Elder King]

@LobselVith8: I understand your view, but I doubt that you'll be able to not involve yourself in Orlais's matters. The choice would likely be about supporting one between Celene or Gaspard (of the civil war doesn't end in the book, which I doubt it'll happen). Making both factions having an elven ally could make things more interesting, in my opinion.

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

@LobselVith8: I understand your view, but I doubt that you'll be able to not involve yourself in Orlais's matters. The choice would likely be about supporting one between Celene or Gaspard (if the civil war doesn't end in the book, which I doubt it'll happen). Making both factions having an elven ally could make things more interesting, in my opinion.

I suppose that's true. I'd wonder what each would offer to incentivize their elven ally... 

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
*bangs head against the wall* You are not listening.  

You're actively ignoring every piece of IRL evidence we have about what happens in forcible relocations, with is what was advocated. The fact that, as of right now, the Dales might be dealing with a huge outflux of human refugees is irrelevant because the Lob openly endorsed and advocated for this view on the basis that all of the human residents lived there. 

And even if a lot of humans are leaving the Dales, unless the number of humans remaining in it are zero, then there will be death. Think about it: if these people aren't driven out by open war, do you think elves asking nicely will get them to leave? Absolutely not. They'll stay and die to protect their homes. 

No one has EVER said that the humans would be victims of genocide in the Dales if the elves took over. Lobsel said he doesn't believe any civilians need to die.

The spin that someone puts on the crime against humanity they're advocating is irrelevant. Forced relocation can't happen without death and suffering on a massive scale, especially when it's perpetrated along racial lines. 

There is no IRL example of a forcible relocation that wasn't a death march. 

This seems like the best time to give elves their land in a humane, no-killing-lots-of-people fashion.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Conscripts would undoubtably return home, since they would still have farms that needed tending to.

And until we have some additional info on Red Templars, and the situation in the Dales in general, then I would say we MIGHT want to postpone the handing it over to Elves and leaving the inhabitants there to genocide.

*bangs head against the wall* You are not listening.

No one has EVER said that the humans would be victims of genocide in the Dales if the elves took over. Lobsel said he doesn't believe any civilians need to die, I have said that I don't see any reason why the elves can't take it back humanely as the humans are abandoning the Dales as a result of a human civil war, add in that there is an elven rebellion already going on.

Giving them land may actually be a large step to restoring world peace.

Facts of the world as of now, the end of Asunder are

1. Orlais is in a civil war between Gaspard and Celene
2. The elves in Orlais are rebelling
3. Mages and Templars are at war over idealogical differences and where mages exist in the world
4. The Chantry has lost control of all its armed forces.
5. The humans in the dales are leaving the Dales.

This seems like the best time to give elves their land in a humane, no-killing-lots-of-people fashion.

SOME humans are fleeing the Dales, obviously they aren't ALL leaving the Dales. The Elves will NEVER be able to retake the Dales without having to commit genocide on all humans still living in the Dales. I don't care wether the amount of huamsn currently lviing in the Dales are diminished, I will NEVER let the Dalish take it, just because casualties now would be lesser than otherwise.

[Pasquale1234]

In Exile wrote...

History is unequivocal that forcible relocation is (a) a crime against humanity of the highest order; ( involves death and rape and violation on a scale that's unheard elsewhere; and © that pretending it like it is OK just means you're endorsing war crimes.

Except when it isn't / doesn't - unless a government exercising its right of eminent domain meets those criteria.

[cjones91]

Lol,I find it hilarious how people are discussing war crimes regarding the elves taking back the Dales(hey that rhymed a bit).If that's the case then Orlais and the Chantry are guilty of:killing hundreds of men,women,and children over the years,ethnic cleasing of the original inhabitants of the Dales,etc;

So don't talk about elves commiting war crimes while at the same time glossing over the skeletons nations like Orlais have in their closet.

[The Baconer]

cjones91 wrote...

Lol,I find it hilarious how people are discussing war crimes regarding the elves taking back the Dales(hey that rhymed a bit).If that's the case then Orlais and the Chantry are guilty of:killing hundreds of men,women,and children over the years,ethnic cleasing of the original inhabitants of the Dales,etc;

So don't talk about elves commiting war crimes while at the same time glossing over the skeletons nations like Orlais have in their closet.

Exactly, more death is definitely the solution here.

[Veruin]

cjones91 wrote...
So don't talk about elves commiting war crimes while at the same time glossing over the skeletons nations like Orlais have in their closet.

Yea, I think the actual reason is two wrongs don't make a right, but whatever.  Continue to think they are biased beyond a doubt.

[cjones91]

Not exactly the point I was making,my point was don't be throwing stones when you are just as guilty.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

Exactly, more death is definitely the solution here.

I don't think anyone is advocating the mass murder of innocent people. Given the harsh reality of racism, religious intolerance, and purges against the populace of the elves, I think that a homeland could give them a sanctuary.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 janvier 2014 - 06:40 .

[The Baconer]

cjones91 wrote...

Not exactly the point I was making,my point was don't be throwing stones when you are just as guilty.

TIL I am actually Orlesian.

[Dave of Canada]

cjones91 wrote...

Lol,I find it hilarious how people are discussing war crimes regarding the elves taking back the Dales(hey that rhymed a bit).If that's the case then Orlais and the Chantry are guilty of:killing hundreds of men,women,and children over the years,ethnic cleasing of the original inhabitants of the Dales,etc;

So don't talk about elves commiting war crimes while at the same time glossing over the skeletons nations like Orlais have in their closet.

So because crimes were committed in the past, it should continue in the present? Will elves still claim the high ground after slaughtering / forcibly relocating everyone and the Orlesian army comes to wipe them out for attacking it's innocent citizens?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 janvier 2014 - 06:42 .

[LobselVith8]

Veruin wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

So don't talk about elves commiting war crimes while at the same time glossing over the skeletons nations like Orlais have in their closet.

Yea, I think the actual reason is two wrongs don't make a right, but whatever.  Continue to think they are biased beyond a doubt. 

I think the persecution of the elves is precisely the reason why I support the elves having their own kingdom - full autonomy for the Elvhen where they won't be killed - right down to the children - simply to keep them in line, and where they can follow their gods without it being a criminal offense.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 janvier 2014 - 06:44 .

[The Elder King]

cjones91 wrote...

Not exactly the point I was making,my point was don't be throwing stones when you are just as guilty.

Nobody here is Orlesian, or a member of the Chantry. I haven't touched the subject, but if someone say that what Orlais and the Chantry did was wrong, why they couldn't say that the hyphothesis of the elves doing it now is wrong too?

[The Elder King]

@LobselVith8: Veruin didn't say that the elves shouldn't have their own country. He stated that they shouldn't get it by doing the same things the humans did.

[cjones91]

Again not the point I was trying to make.How many here gleefully supported the extemination of groups like mages,templars,etc?And I already know you have done so Dave so don't deny it,anyway accusing Lobsel of supporting ethnic cleansing when he has said he wants the elves to peacefully take the lands is pretty hypocritical when several of you have went on several threads talking about how you want to kill all elves,mages,templars,and qunari.

[Pasquale1234]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

They are total isolationists. They believe that the longer they stay apart from humans, the closer they can get to their lost 'immortality.'

This is the reason they cannot escape their plight.  Unless and until they get past this barrier, and learn to live harmoniously - or at the very least, maintain diplomatic relationships - with humans, they will continue to be nomadic squatters. 

I think the elven pantheon being outlawed by Chantry law and free mages being illegal are factors that play into the schism between the Dalish and the human kingdoms. It's easier said than done to establish diplomatic relations with nations where your religious beliefs alone make you an outlaw.

My point is that even if / when the religious and free mage issues are resolved, the isolationism will continue to be a barrier to their success.  Did you read the rest of my post?

[Mirrman70]

I believe that if any group of elves were to be given a nation of their own (bad idea in the first place) the City Elves should get since they seem to have the best chance at coexistence. The Dalish are classic model of "these people repressed me so I'm going to repress them given the chance". I remember in the Dalish Origin that you were able to kill those two dudes without even batting an eye if you wanted to, which to me shows that due to the repression caused by men the Dalish have developed a sort of tunnel vision when it comes to dealing with humans. Not all Dalish are this hostile to humans but the majority of the ones seen so far are. Giving them an artificial homeland out of pity would only end badly as they would try to do the isolation thing again and eventually the humans would see that as a form of aggression and would reconquer them.

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

@LobselVith8: Veruin didn't say that the elves shouldn't have their own country. He stated that they shouldn't get it by doing the same things the humans did.

Except I don't think anyone is suggesting that innocent people should be killed to produce an independent elven kingdom, so I don't understand why it's the topic of discussion.

[The Elder King]

cjones91 wrote...

Again not the point I was trying to make.How many here gleefully supported the extemination of groups like mages,templars,etc?And I already know you have done so Dave so don't deny it,anyway accusing Lobsel of supporting ethnic cleansing when he has said he wants the elves to peacefully take the lands is pretty hypocritical when several of you have went on several threads talking about how you want to kill all elves,mages,templars,and qunari.

Who are the people that support to kill all elves, qunari, mages, templars etc. that are present in the thread?