1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

cjones91 wrote...

Again not the point I was trying to make.How many here gleefully supported the extemination of groups like mages,templars,etc?And I already know you have done so Dave so don't deny it,anyway accusing Lobsel of supporting ethnic cleansing when he has said he wants the elves to peacefully take the lands is pretty hypocritical when several of you have went on several threads talking about how you want to kill all elves,mages,templars,and qunari.

i want the Dalish as an idea wiped out and integrated into human society. Just like how my slaughter of mages is for the benefit of everyone rather than some gleeful support of killing things.

If they joined human society peacefully, it wouldnt need killing.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 janvier 2014 - 06:53 .

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@LobselVith8: Veruin didn't say that the elves shouldn't have their own country. He stated that they shouldn't get it by doing the same things the humans did.

Except I don't think anyone is suggesting that innocent people should be killed to produce an independent elven kingdom, so I don't understand why it's the topic of discussion.

It depends on where the new kingdom is located. If it's in the Dales, unless it's completely disabitated (which it seems it isn't), the forced relocation will cause deaths. It's impossible to prevent it.

[LobselVith8]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the elven pantheon being outlawed by Chantry law and free mages being illegal are factors that play into the schism between the Dalish and the human kingdoms. It's easier said than done to establish diplomatic relations with nations where your religious beliefs alone make you an outlaw. 

My point is that even if / when the religious and free mage issues are resolved, the isolationism will continue to be a barrier to their success.  Did you read the rest of my post? 

You mean about your Cousland Warden, which would only apply to Ferelden? Given how many times we know the Dalish have interacted with humans (from Aveline to Feynriel, and the treaties) I'm not seeing the Dalish as some impenetrable group that completely forbids non-elven contact.

[Pasquale1234]

Dave of Canada wrote...

i want the Dalish as an idea wiped out and integrated into human society. Just like how my slaughter of mages is for the benefit of everyone rather than some gleeful support of killing things.

If they joined human society peacefully, it wouldnt need killing.

Been studying the Qun?

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean about your Cousland Warden, which would only apply to Ferelden? Given how many times we know the Dalish have interacted with humans (from Aveline to Feynriel, and the treaties) I'm not seeing the Dalish as some impenetrable group that completely forbids non-elven contact.

They haven't been, at least not in game.

But my point stands.

Irrespective of any other factors, the Elves will not be successful unless / until they are willing to forego their isolationism.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 22 janvier 2014 - 07:13 .

[The Baconer]

hhh89 wrote...

Who are the people that support to kill all elves, qunari, mages, templars etc. that are present in the thread?

Well...

[Mirrman70]

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Isolationism

try to find a good and friendly aspect.

[LobselVith8]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean about your Cousland Warden, which would only apply to Ferelden? Given how many times we know the Dalish have interacted with humans (from Aveline to Feynriel, and the treaties) I'm not seeing the Dalish as some impenetrable group that completely forbids non-elven contact.

They haven't been, at least not in game.

But my point stands.

Irrespective of any other factors, the Elves will not be successful unless / until they are willing to forego their isolationism. 

If the Dalish are willing to sign a treaty to aid humans and even raise humans in their clan, I'm not sure why isolationism is viewed as the primary problem. I think templars and narrow-minded Andrastians who see them as heathens who need to be converted are more of an issue, since I've repeatedly seen the Dalish interact with non-elves.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 janvier 2014 - 08:09 .

[ianvillan]

Mirrman70 wrote...

I believe that if any group of elves were to be given a nation of their own (bad idea in the first place) the City Elves should get since they seem to have the best chance at coexistence. The Dalish are classic model of "these people repressed me so I'm going to repress them given the chance". I remember in the Dalish Origin that you were able to kill those two dudes without even batting an eye if you wanted to, which to me shows that due to the repression caused by men the Dalish have developed a sort of tunnel vision when it comes to dealing with humans. Not all Dalish are this hostile to humans but the majority of the ones seen so far are. Giving them an artificial homeland out of pity would only end badly as they would try to do the isolation thing again and eventually the humans would see that as a form of aggression and would reconquer them.

So because the Elves would want to be left alone to worship who they want and have their own customs it is fine for the Humans to kill them.

Why is it justified for Humans to force their beliefs and customs on the Elves and if the Elves refuse to allow it the Humans can kill them with no consequence.

I also don't believe that Orlais will allow the city elves to leave anyway because their whole infrastructure relies on the Elven slave labour.

[ianvillan]

Dave of Canada wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lol,I find it hilarious how people are discussing war crimes regarding the elves taking back the Dales(hey that rhymed a bit).If that's the case then Orlais and the Chantry are guilty of:killing hundreds of men,women,and children over the years,ethnic cleasing of the original inhabitants of the Dales,etc;

So don't talk about elves commiting war crimes while at the same time glossing over the skeletons nations like Orlais have in their closet.

So because crimes were committed in the past, it should continue in the present? Will elves still claim the high ground after slaughtering / forcibly relocating everyone and the Orlesian army comes to wipe them out for attacking it's innocent citizens?

Well the Chantry and Orlais claim the high ground after slaughtering / forcibly relocating the Elves and it is accepted so why should the Elves be any different.

[HiroVoid]

ianvillan wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lol,I find it hilarious how people are discussing war crimes regarding the elves taking back the Dales(hey that rhymed a bit).If that's the case then Orlais and the Chantry are guilty of:killing hundreds of men,women,and children over the years,ethnic cleasing of the original inhabitants of the Dales,etc;

So don't talk about elves commiting war crimes while at the same time glossing over the skeletons nations like Orlais have in their closet.

So because crimes were committed in the past, it should continue in the present? Will elves still claim the high ground after slaughtering / forcibly relocating everyone and the Orlesian army comes to wipe them out for attacking it's innocent citizens?

Well the Chantry and Orlais claim the high ground after slaughtering / forcibly relocating the Elves and it is accepted so why should the Elves be any different.

Can I say what Orlais did was awful and it would be awful for the Dalish to do the same thing (and incredibly dumb)?

[Pasquale1234]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the Dalish are willing to sign a treaty to aid humans and even raise humans in their clan, I'm not sure why isolationism is viewed as the primary problem. I think templars and narrow-minded Andrastians who see them as heathens who need to be converted are more of an issue, since I've repeatedly seen the Dalish interact with non-humans.

I'll see if I can clarify.

Assuming that the Elves did have their own homeland, refusal to maintain diplomatic relations with humans and human lands would ultimately lead them to not only economic stagnation for want of trade, but also to them once again being routed.  Closing themselves off to any friendly relationships with other nations would leave them with no allies, no aid when the crops fail, no outside support, no lifelines.

What we see today with the nomadic clans is sort of a microcosm of that.  Both the Warden and Hawke needed special circumstances to be allowed to interact with them.

Your point about the view of templars and narrow-minded Andrastians is also problematic for them, but I think their isolationism is a bigger issue.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 22 janvier 2014 - 08:12 .

[dragonflight288]

 

I also don't believe that Orlais will allow the city elves to leave anyway because their whole infrastructure relies on the Elven slave labour.

Serfs. Elven serfs, based entirely on a conversation Leliana has with a Dalish warden and how she tries to defend the practice, as she is quite adament that Orlais doesn't practice slavery....

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

I also don't believe that Orlais will allow the city elves to leave anyway because their whole infrastructure relies on the Elven slave labour.

Serfs. Elven serfs, based entirely on a conversation Leliana has with a Dalish warden and how she tries to defend the practice, as she is quite adament that Orlais doesn't practice slavery....

If you really believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

I also don't believe that Orlais will allow the city elves to leave anyway because their whole infrastructure relies on the Elven slave labour.

Serfs. Elven serfs, based entirely on a conversation Leliana has with a Dalish warden and how she tries to defend the practice, as she is quite adament that Orlais doesn't practice slavery....

If you really believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

Not so. You see, I own the river so by rights of crossing said bridge, you really ought to pay me the toll. 

But no, I don't really believe that. I was actually just making a point that Orlais are just as much slavers as Tevinter is, but they call it a different name to make them feel better about themselves.

[ianvillan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

I also don't believe that Orlais will allow the city elves to leave anyway because their whole infrastructure relies on the Elven slave labour.

Serfs. Elven serfs, based entirely on a conversation Leliana has with a Dalish warden and how she tries to defend the practice, as she is quite adament that Orlais doesn't practice slavery....

Brother Genitivii a respected Chantry scholar who many people say can be trusted says it is slavery in a different name.

[dragonflight288]

ianvillan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

I also don't believe that Orlais will allow the city elves to leave anyway because their whole infrastructure relies on the Elven slave labour.

Serfs. Elven serfs, based entirely on a conversation Leliana has with a Dalish warden and how she tries to defend the practice, as she is quite adament that Orlais doesn't practice slavery....

Brother Genitivii a respected Chantry scholar who many people say can be trusted says it is slavery in a different name.

As I just told eluvianix, that was the point I was making. Orlais does practice slavery, they just call it a different name to feel better about themselves. 

[ianvillan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

I also don't believe that Orlais will allow the city elves to leave anyway because their whole infrastructure relies on the Elven slave labour.

Serfs. Elven serfs, based entirely on a conversation Leliana has with a Dalish warden and how she tries to defend the practice, as she is quite adament that Orlais doesn't practice slavery....

Brother Genitivii a respected Chantry scholar who many people say can be trusted says it is slavery in a different name.

As I just told eluvianix, that was the point I was making. Orlais does practice slavery, they just call it a different name to feel better about themselves. 

I saw that after I posted to you sorry.

But I think that if the city Elves were to leave that Orlais would collapse because the Elves are so ingrained into their way of life it would be impossible for them to carry on without them.

[Dave of Canada]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Been studying the Qun?

I care very little about the Qun, it's just that the Dalish are malignant on Thedas. They spread racist ideologies, myths and what say you in the belief that they're inherently superior to humanity and any elf living in human cities--whether they chose themselves or their ancestors did--in the hopes of... what? Achieving some homeland?

They're not working toward any goal, they're roaming around and attacking humans in the name of some long-dead heritage which might not even be true to begin with and making humans hate the city elves even more through association. Any hopes of building some peaceful rapport between the two races cannot continue while the Dalish remain a thorn in everyone's side.

We might see progressive changes in the name of elven rights afterwards.

ianvillan wrote...

Well the Chantry and Orlais claim the high ground after slaughtering / forcibly relocating the Elves and it is accepted so why should the Elves be any different.

We're talking about a crime that was commited generations ago which they have no real clue as to what really happened, who started what and who's done anything. What's relevant now is that the land has belonged to humans for generations, elves coming along and slaughtering or moving these people because they "started it" is insane.

The proper response to this elven aggression would be to slaughter the Dalish and then they'd just start roaming again, using their victim complex to demonize humanity even though they've started it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 janvier 2014 - 08:28 .

[LobselVith8]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the Dalish are willing to sign a treaty to aid humans and even raise humans in their clan, I'm not sure why isolationism is viewed as the primary problem. I think templars and narrow-minded Andrastians who see them as heathens who need to be converted are more of an issue, since I've repeatedly seen the Dalish interact with non-humans.

I'll see if I can clarify.

Assuming that the Elves did have their own homeland, refusal to maintain diplomatic relations with humans and human lands would ultimately lead them to not only economic stagnation for want of trade, but also to them once again being routed.  Closing themselves off to any friendly relationships with other nations would leave them with no allies, no aid when the crops fail, no outside support, no lifelines.

What we see today with the nomadic clans is sort of a microcosm of that.  Both the Warden and Hawke needed special circumstances to be allowed to interact with them.

Your point about the view of templars and narrow-minded Andrastians is also problematic for them, but I think their isolationism is a bigger issue. 

Lanaya settled disputes between humans and elves, and appeared at court, so I don't think isolation is necessarily an issue if an independent elven kingdom arises. Given the stigma that Velanna faced in her anti-human crusade from her own clan, I think the Dalish have the potential for a more prosperous future than the Dales did. I would certainly like to think an Inquisition lead by a Dalish elf can help foster and forge alliances and ties with other kingdoms. How the current Chantry and templars respond to an elven nation with followers of the Creators and free mages would be another factor, though. 

[dragonflight288]

 

I saw that after I posted to you sorry.
But I think that if the city Elves were to leave that Orlais would collapse because the Elves are so ingrained into their way of life it would be impossible for them to carry on without them.

No worries.  

And I think Orlais is already on the brink of collapse. They DO have a civil war AND an elven rebellion going on. The elves of Orlais are rebelling. 

[ianvillan]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Been studying the Qun?

I care very little about the Qun, it's just that the Dalish are malignant on Thedas. They spread racist ideologies, myths and what say you in the belief that they're inherently superior to humanity and any elf living in human cities--whether they chose themselves or their ancestors did--in the hopes of... what? Achieving some homeland?

They're not working toward any goal, they're roaming around and attacking humans in the name of some long-dead heritage which might not even be true to begin with and making humans hate the city elves even more through association. Any hopes of building some peaceful rapport between the two races cannot continue while the Dalish remain a thorn in everyone's side.

We might see progressive changes in the name of elven rights afterwards.

ianvillan wrote...

Well the Chantry and Orlais claim the high ground after slaughtering / forcibly relocating the Elves and it is accepted so why should the Elves be any different.

We're talking about a crime that was commited generations ago which they have no real clue as to what really happened, who started what and who's done anything. What's relevant now is that the land has belonged to humans for generations, elves coming along and slaughtering or moving these people because they "started it" is insane.

The proper response to this elven aggression would be to slaughter the Dalish and then they'd just start roaming again, using their victim complex to demonize humanity even though they've started it.

Any hope of understanding between Humans and Elves is impossible while the Chantry is around because of their racist and superior attitude to the Elves.

Orlais would also refuse any compromise that would take the City Elves from being slaves to them, which they view as a natural place for them.

[LobselVith8]

ianvillan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

As I just told eluvianix, that was the point I was making. Orlais does practice slavery, they just call it a different name to feel better about themselves. 

I saw that after I posted to you sorry.

But I think that if the city Elves were to leave that Orlais would collapse because the Elves are so ingrained into their way of life it would be impossible for them to carry on without them. 

I can live with that. I think Ferelden and Nevarra could, too.

[Dave of Canada]

ianvillan wrote...

Any hope of understanding between Humans and Elves is impossible while the Chantry is around because of their racist and superior attitude to the Elves.

The same Chantry which marries City Elves and was upset when Vaughan intercepted the marriage? The one which provides for them across both games?

Orlais would also refuse any compromise that would take the City Elves from being slaves to them, which they view as a natural place for them.

Societal change doesn't occur overnight.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 janvier 2014 - 08:35 .

[ianvillan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

As I just told eluvianix, that was the point I was making. Orlais does practice slavery, they just call it a different name to feel better about themselves. 

I saw that after I posted to you sorry.

But I think that if the city Elves were to leave that Orlais would collapse because the Elves are so ingrained into their way of life it would be impossible for them to carry on without them. 

I can live with that. I think Ferelden and Nevarra could, too.

It could be the Elves who achieve what Tevinter and the Qunari couldn't, the Destruction of the Orlisian empire.

[The Elder King]

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

I saw that after I posted to you sorry.
But I think that if the city Elves were to leave that Orlais would collapse because the Elves are so ingrained into their way of life it would be impossible for them to carry on without them.

No worries.  

And I think Orlais is already on the brink of collapse. They DO have a civil war AND an elven rebellion going on. The elves of Orlais are rebelling. 

I honestly doubt Orlais will collapse. And isn't the elven rebellion supported by Gaspard?