1258 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

hhh89 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

I saw that after I posted to you sorry.
But I think that if the city Elves were to leave that Orlais would collapse because the Elves are so ingrained into their way of life it would be impossible for them to carry on without them.

No worries.  

And I think Orlais is already on the brink of collapse. They DO have a civil war AND an elven rebellion going on. The elves of Orlais are rebelling. 

I honestly doubt Orlais will collapse. And isn't the elven rebellion supported by Gaspard?

I think it is, but that's the thing about rebellions. They tend to take on lives of their own. I don't know much about Gaspard, but if he's offering the elves a land to call their own, he'll probably have a lot of supporters among gamers. But Celene's got Morrigan....

[ianvillan]

hhh89 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

I saw that after I posted to you sorry.
But I think that if the city Elves were to leave that Orlais would collapse because the Elves are so ingrained into their way of life it would be impossible for them to carry on without them.

No worries.  

And I think Orlais is already on the brink of collapse. They DO have a civil war AND an elven rebellion going on. The elves of Orlais are rebelling. 

I honestly doubt Orlais will collapse. And isn't the elven rebellion supported by Gaspard?

When a country like Orlais is reliant on slave labour, and the slave labour leaves then who will take their place.

[The Elder King]

What if Celene manages to strike a deal with the dalish in The Masked Empire?

[ianvillan]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Any hope of understanding between Humans and Elves is impossible while the Chantry is around because of their racist and superior attitude to the Elves.

The same Chantry which marries City Elves and was upset when Vaughan intercepted the marriage? The one which provides for them across both games?

Orlais would also refuse any compromise that would take the City Elves from being slaves to them, which they view as a natural place for them.

Societal change doesn't occur overnight.

Just because they marry Elves does not mean they don't support them being slaves to Humans. The Chantry accepts the alienage's even though the Elves starve and are killed by Humans freely. 

The Chantry does not condemn the slavery of the Elves even though they know it is happening.

I know societal change doesn't occur over night but Orlais and the rest of the Chantry nations have had a long enough time to change if they really cared about the Elves and did not want slave labour.

How long should we continue to wait for the Chantry and Orlais to change for the better.

[The Elder King]

ianvillan wrote...

When a country like Orlais is reliant on slave labour, and the slave labour leaves then who will take their place.

You said  that Orlais' economy relies on slave labour. What I remember and read leads me to agree with you that elven 'servants' are practically slave, but to disagree that Orlais's economy is heavily based on elven 'servants'. Orlais isn't, from what I see, in the same situation of Tevinter in term of reliance of slaves.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 janvier 2014 - 08:52 .

[TK514]

ianvillan wrote...
I also don't believe that Orlais will allow the city elves to leave anyway because their whole infrastructure relies on the Elven slave labour.

I find this claim dubious.  Care to elaborate on how the Orlesian infrastructure relies on City Elf labor?

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think it is, but that's the thing about rebellions. They tend to take on lives of their own. I don't know much about Gaspard, but if he's offering the elves a land to call their own, he'll probably have a lot of supporters among gamers. But Celene's got Morrigan.... 

If Gaspard is offering the elves their own sovereign state, I wonder what his ultimate goal is.

With the Dalish gathering in the Dales and a rumored elven rebellion in the former elven kingdom, it keeps coming to mind as a likely goal for the Elvhen.

Also, I wonder what angle Morrigan is playing in Orlais, given her venture into the Eluvian.

[Pasquale1234]

hhh89 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

When a country like Orlais is reliant on slave labour, and the slave labour leaves then who will take their place.

You said  that Orlais' economy relies on slave labour. What I remember and read leads me to agree with you that elven 'servants' are practically slave, but to disagree that Orlais's economy is heavily based on elven 'servants'. Orlais isn't, from what I see, in the same situation of Tevinter in term of reliance of slaves.

How could Orlais function without elves to serve stinky cheese and ham that tastes of despair at the noble's parties?

[EmperorSahlertz]

hhh89 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

I saw that after I posted to you sorry.
But I think that if the city Elves were to leave that Orlais would collapse because the Elves are so ingrained into their way of life it would be impossible for them to carry on without them.

No worries.  

And I think Orlais is already on the brink of collapse. They DO have a civil war AND an elven rebellion going on. The elves of Orlais are rebelling. 

I honestly doubt Orlais will collapse. And isn't the elven rebellion supported by Gaspard?

Actually that rebellion in particular was just a ruse that Gaspard played against Celene, since she would send a significantly smaller army out to deal with an Elven uprising. It was however Gaspard's army that awaited Celene in Halamshiral. The new novel comming up however, does mention that there are rising unrest amongst the Elven population.
Gaspard himself however is certainly NOT happy about an Elven uprising. As a matter of fact, one of his main grieves with Celene is her diplomatic approach towards the Elven unrest.

[TK514]

ianvillan wrote...

When a country like Orlais is reliant on slave labour, and the slave labour leaves then who will take their place.

the humans who would have gotten those jobs if the elves didn't exist.  Particularly during/after a major conflict, when you have displaced citizens flooding to the cities in search of work.  I would expect violence against City Elves to increase dramatically after any major conflict specifically because of the fact that elves inhabit the strata of servant class.

I would also expect a repeat of what we saw in Kirkwall during/after the Ferelden Blight, were a sudden influx of human labor resulted in Elves being turned away from jobs they normally would have been competitive for.

[The Elder King]

@EmperorSahlertz: thanks for the info.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Chantry is the ONLY reason the Elves weren't slaughtered to a man by the Orlesians.

There is not a single part of what the Chantry preaches, that invovles racism towards Elves. The one thing the Chantry did, was removing the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant, since Shartan's people had just butchered, maimed, and raped their way half across Orlais.

Serfdom is not technically slavery, but it is very close.

Human peasants are also serfs, don't expect Elven serfs' conditions to change before the human serfs'.

[Pasquale1234]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Gaspard is offering the elves their own sovereign state, I wonder what his ultimate goal is.

With the Dalish gathering in the Dales and a rumored elven rebellion in the former elven kingdom, it keeps coming to mind as a likely goal for the Elvhen.

Working out the governing of a new Elvhen nation could be pretty darned interesting.

All the different clans with different viewpoints, each having their own sets of elders, keepers, firsts, etc. - and, presumably beliefs in the Creators and the use of magic...

versus

City Elves, mostly Andrastrian, likely with cultural beliefs and expectations arising from their various backgrounds in different nations throughout Thedas.  Some have been Circle Mages...

versus

Elvhen Viddathari who have converted to the Qun...

versus

Elvhen slaves from Tevinter and various other places...

Could make pretty interesting reading material.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Gaspard is offering the elves their own sovereign state, I wonder what his ultimate goal is.

With the Dalish gathering in the Dales and a rumored elven rebellion in the former elven kingdom, it keeps coming to mind as a likely goal for the Elvhen.

If he can rope in the Dalish to fight for him, then he's a genious.

The perfect tool to send to do all those horribly dirty things humans generally already believe the Dalish are capable of. Drive off people to force Celene to spend resources caring for refugees, burn fields, kill nobles and so forth.

...and then when he's emperor... he becomes an agent of "justice" and a "protector of his people" and wipes them out. Allowing him to keep the Dales as his own.

Clever really.

This is naturally just blatant speculation with me at my most cynical. But it's not that unplasuible.

[TK514]

Sir JK wrote...

If he can rope in the Dalish to fight for him, then he's a genious.

The perfect tool to send to do all those horribly dirty things humans generally already believe the Dalish are capable of. Drive off people to force Celene to spend resources caring for refugees, burn fields, kill nobles and so forth.

...and then when he's emperor... he becomes an agent of "justice" and a "protector of his people" and wipes them out. Allowing him to keep the Dales as his own.

Clever really.

This is naturally just blatant speculation with me at my most cynical. But it's not that unplasuible.

I've often thought the exact same thing.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry is the ONLY reason the Elves weren't slaughtered to a man by the Orlesians.

There is not a single part of what the Chantry preaches, that invovles racism towards Elves. The one thing the Chantry did, was removing the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant, since Shartan's people had just butchered, maimed, and raped their way half across Orlais.

It was the Chantry that decreed all elves had to live in alienages.

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry is the ONLY reason the Elves weren't slaughtered to a man by the Orlesians.

There is not a single part of what the Chantry preaches, that invovles racism towards Elves. The one thing the Chantry did, was removing the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant, since Shartan's people had just butchered, maimed, and raped their way half across Orlais.

It was the Chantry that decreed all elves had to live in alienages.

Exactly.  As an alternative to being eradicated.  Unless you consider being slaughtered to a man as preferable to living.

Modifié par TK514, 22 janvier 2014 - 09:16 .

[ianvillan]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Gaspard is offering the elves their own sovereign state, I wonder what his ultimate goal is.

With the Dalish gathering in the Dales and a rumored elven rebellion in the former elven kingdom, it keeps coming to mind as a likely goal for the Elvhen.

If he can rope in the Dalish to fight for him, then he's a genious.

The perfect tool to send to do all those horribly dirty things humans generally already believe the Dalish are capable of. Drive off people to force Celene to spend resources caring for refugees, burn fields, kill nobles and so forth.

...and then when he's emperor... he becomes an agent of "justice" and a "protector of his people" and wipes them out. Allowing him to keep the Dales as his own.

Clever really.

This is naturally just blatant speculation with me at my most cynical. But it's not that unplasuible.

You could be right or he could create the monster that destroys Orlais and the Chantry.

Its a dangerous game to ignite a revolution and think you can control it.

[The Elder King]

@ianvillain: do you seriously believe that there are chances that Bioware will completely destroy the Chantry in DAI?

[ianvillan]

hhh89 wrote...

@ianvillain: do you seriously believe that there are chances that Bioware will completely destroy the Chantry in DAI?

Not really and I actually hope they don't, I think the Chantry is needed and it does some good, but the Chantry as it is now would need to be destroyed and a new better one created in its place.

[TK514]

ianvillan wrote...

You could be right or he could create the monster that destroys Orlais and the Chantry.

Its a dangerous game to ignite a revolution and think you can control it.

The Chantry wouldn't collapse if Orlais ended any more than Christianity did with the fall of Rome.  It is the dominant religion of the known world.  They'd just set up shop somewhere else, and every Andrastian government would compete for the political coup that would come with being the home of the Divine.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

You could be right or he could create the monster that destroys Orlais and the Chantry.

Its a dangerous game to ignite a revolution and think you can control it.

The Chantry wouldn't collapse if Orlais ended any more than Christianity did with the fall of Rome.  It is the dominant religion of the known world.  They'd just set up shop somewhere else, and every Andrastian government would compete for the political coup that would come with being the home of the Divine.

I'm betting on Nevarra, IF, and that's a heavy IF, that were to occur.

[Dave of Canada]

ianvillan wrote...

Its a dangerous game to ignite a revolution and think you can control it.

Worst case scenario is you end up losing some men as you cull the elves back under control.