1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Abraham_uk]

I like the Dalish representation.
Down trodden group of Elves desperately trying to protect their way of life.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 22 janvier 2014 - 09:58 .

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry is the ONLY reason the Elves weren't slaughtered to a man by the Orlesians.

There is not a single part of what the Chantry preaches, that invovles racism towards Elves. The one thing the Chantry did, was removing the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant, since Shartan's people had just butchered, maimed, and raped their way half across Orlais.

It was the Chantry that decreed all elves had to live in alienages.

Exactly.  As an alternative to being eradicated.  Unless you consider being slaughtered to a man as preferable to living.

I would prefer elves live in equality with humans if they are forced to give up their culture and religion. If they have to live with humans, they should be allowed to be craftsmen, merchants, military, rather than be relegated to 2nd class citizens, slaves/serfs, and forced to live in slums. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry is the ONLY reason the Elves weren't slaughtered to a man by the Orlesians.

There is not a single part of what the Chantry preaches, that invovles racism towards Elves. The one thing the Chantry did, was removing the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant, since Shartan's people had just butchered, maimed, and raped their way half across Orlais.

It was the Chantry that decreed all elves had to live in alienages.

Exactly.  As an alternative to being eradicated.  Unless you consider being slaughtered to a man as preferable to living.

I would prefer elves live in equality with humans if they are forced to give up their culture and religion. If they have to live with humans, they should be allowed to be craftsmen, merchants, military, rather than be relegated to 2nd class citizens, slaves/serfs, and forced to live in slums. 

You honestly think the humans would EVER let the Elves, which just almost destroyed their nation, live in their towns as equals?
The Elves should prize themselves lucky that they were even given the cahnce for survival. From the alienages things might actually change, and if not for the alienages then the Elves would surely have been eradicated.

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I would prefer elves live in equality with humans if they are forced to give up their culture and religion. If they have to live with humans, they should be allowed to be craftsmen, merchants, military, rather than be relegated to 2nd class citizens, slaves/serfs, and forced to live in slums. 

None of which had anything to do with the Chantry.  The Chantry forced humanity to build enclaves in their cities and allow the Elves to live there, with the only condition being that the elves convert.  Which, given that the Chantry is an organized religion with conversion being a primary goal and had just saved the elves from total annihilation, is an entirely reasonable request.

The rest is neither the responsibility nor the result of the Chantry.

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I would prefer elves live in equality with humans if they are forced to give up their culture and religion. If they have to live with humans, they should be allowed to be craftsmen, merchants, military, rather than be relegated to 2nd class citizens, slaves/serfs, and forced to live in slums. 

None of which had anything to do with the Chantry.  The Chantry forced humanity to build enclaves in their cities and allow the Elves to live there, with the only condition being that the elves convert.  Which, given that the Chantry is an organized religion with conversion being a primary goal and had just saved the elves from total annihilation, is an entirely reasonable request.

The rest is neither the responsibility nor the result of the Chantry.

And I've said plenty of times in the past that I give Orlais more blame. The Chantry haven't helped in recent times, but they were the ones who called the Exalted March when Orlais was losing the war. And the Chantry HAS aided Orlais in every major conflict, and we can see how they help Orlais in a war in "The Stolen Throne." 

And there are plenty of prominent characters from the games and books (mainly the books) who make it clear that the Chantry isn't seen as a religious organization, but an Orlesian one. 

I give humans and Orlais a huge chunk of the blame, but saying that the Chantry is blameless when they're the ones who removed the Canticle of Shartan, decreed all elves HAD to live in alienages and were the ones who called the Exalted March that ended up making the Dalish lose the war to be equally naive as saying they have all the blame. 

[The Elder King]

Faerunner wrote...
Again, I find it amazing how many people think the elves need to just shut up and accept being the bottom dregs of human society with smiles and gratitude, where if the positions were reversed they would call for genocide in two seconds flat. Heck, many people already think elves deserve genocide just for speaking rudely to humans occasionally, like somehow rudeness is equal to thousands of years of on-going slavery and subjugation.

I'm against genocide in any forms. I'm against the way Andrastian society treats elves. That doesn't mean I justify those dalish who are racists in regards of humans (as I don't justify the opposite.Elves should have in my opinion their own state. But as the Chantry and the humans have to change their stance, the elves should too. 
 

Modifié par hhh89, 22 janvier 2014 - 10:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Gaspard is offering the elves their own sovereign state, I wonder what his ultimate goal is.

With the Dalish gathering in the Dales and a rumored elven rebellion in the former elven kingdom, it keeps coming to mind as a likely goal for the Elvhen.

If he can rope in the Dalish to fight for him, then he's a genious. 

The perfect tool to send to do all those horribly dirty things humans generally already believe the Dalish are capable of. Drive off people to force Celene to spend resources caring for refugees, burn fields, kill nobles and so forth. 

...and then when he's emperor... he becomes an agent of "justice" and a "protector of his people" and wipes them out. Allowing him to keep the Dales as his own. 

Clever really. 

This is naturally just blatant speculation with me at my most cynical. But it's not that unplasuible.  

I'm suddenly reminded of why I want to help the Elvhen while leaving Orlais to rot.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't believe there's ever been mention of the Chantry helping Orlais with their wars with Nevarra.

[ianvillan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I would prefer elves live in equality with humans if they are forced to give up their culture and religion. If they have to live with humans, they should be allowed to be craftsmen, merchants, military, rather than be relegated to 2nd class citizens, slaves/serfs, and forced to live in slums. 

None of which had anything to do with the Chantry.  The Chantry forced humanity to build enclaves in their cities and allow the Elves to live there, with the only condition being that the elves convert.  Which, given that the Chantry is an organized religion with conversion being a primary goal and had just saved the elves from total annihilation, is an entirely reasonable request.

The rest is neither the responsibility nor the result of the Chantry.

And I've said plenty of times in the past that I give Orlais more blame. The Chantry haven't helped in recent times, but they were the ones who called the Exalted March when Orlais was losing the war. And the Chantry HAS aided Orlais in every major conflict, and we can see how they help Orlais in a war in "The Stolen Throne." 

And there are plenty of prominent characters from the games and books (mainly the books) who make it clear that the Chantry isn't seen as a religious organization, but an Orlesian one. 

I give humans and Orlais a huge chunk of the blame, but saying that the Chantry is blameless when they're the ones who removed the Canticle of Shartan, decreed all elves HAD to live in alienages and were the ones who called the Exalted March that ended up making the Dalish lose the war to be equally naive as saying they have all the blame. 

Plus they also kept trying to force their brothers into the dales even after the Elves said no, they then sent in a military force to make sure that their missionaries could do as they pleased.

So I would say that the Chantry struck the first blow by sending armed military personal into another nation after they were told not too.

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And I've said plenty of times in the past that I give Orlais more blame. The Chantry haven't helped in recent times, but they were the ones who called the Exalted March when Orlais was losing the war. And the Chantry HAS aided Orlais in every major conflict, and we can see how they help Orlais in a war in "The Stolen Throne." 

And there are plenty of prominent characters from the games and books (mainly the books) who make it clear that the Chantry isn't seen as a religious organization, but an Orlesian one. 

I give humans and Orlais a huge chunk of the blame, but saying that the Chantry is blameless when they're the ones who removed the Canticle of Shartan, decreed all elves HAD to live in alienages and were the ones who called the Exalted March that ended up making the Dalish lose the war to be equally naive as saying they have all the blame. 

look at those goalposts move.

nothing you bring up here save the single specific mention of the Alienages, has anything to do with the City Elves.  And, for the third time, the Chantry saved the City Elves from annihilation by forcing humanity to allow them to live in the Alienages.

maybe you haven't figured it out yet, but the Chantry is big on segregation to promote safety.  It's a recurring theme.  One not born of malice, but because it is often the best solution at the time.  In the case of the Alienages, nothing else would have worked, and once they were entrenched in human culture, removing them has become an unnecessary and ugly battle, well outside the remit of the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

Faerunner wrote...
Again, I find it amazing how many people think the elves need to just shut up and accept being the bottom dregs of human society with smiles and gratitude, where if the positions were reversed they would call for genocide in two seconds flat. Heck, many people already think elves deserve genocide just for speaking rudely to humans occasionally, like somehow rudeness is equal to thousands of years of on-going slavery and subjugation.

I'm against genocide in any forms. I'm against the way Andrastian society treats elves. That doesn't mean I justify  the dalish who are racists in regards of humans (as I don't justify the opposite.Elves should have in my opinion their own state. But as the Chantry and the humans have to change their stance, the elves should too.  

And yet, the Dalish raised Aveline, signed a treaty with the Wardens when the Blights threatened the human nations, ostracized Velanna over her bigotry towards humans, and welcomed Feynriel into the Sabrae clan (and protected him). I don't get why some people act like the Dalish are one-dimensional racists. Or why anyone is surprised that the Dalish expect hostility from strangers when templars pursue them and Andrastians threaten them to convert.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't believe there's ever been mention of the Chantry helping Orlais with their wars with Nevarra.

It could be a lot like what they did in "The Stolen Throne." They preached constantly against Ferelden's nobles who supported Queen Rowan and Maric. The allowed Orlais all the mages they felt they needed from the Circle while denying Ferelden any mages period, which is also probably why Wilhelm was given special exemption to live free of the circle after the war because he fought on behalf of Ferelden and the Chantry was busy kissing Maric's and Loghain's butt in order to be allowed to remain in Ferelden, had increased tithes on those supporting the rebels and so on. Or have rumors spread that the Dragon Age was named thus as a way to support the Orlesian occupiers of Ferelden, that sort of thing. 

They really change their tune when it becomes obvious Orlais is losing, however. 

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

look at those goalposts move.

nothing you bring up here save the single specific mention of the Alienages, has anything to do with the City Elves.  And, for the third time, the Chantry saved the City Elves from annihilation by forcing humanity to allow them to live in the Alienages.

I'm not going to thank the Chantry for criminalizing the elven religion or giving the elves the right to live in servitude to humanity. And if the Dalish historical account is correct, that only further damns the Chantry.

TK514 wrote...

maybe you haven't figured it out yet, but the Chantry is big on segregation to promote safety.  It's a recurring theme.  One not born of malice, but because it is often the best solution at the time.  In the case of the Alienages, nothing else would have worked, and once they were entrenched in human culture, removing them has become an unnecessary and ugly battle, well outside the remit of the Chantry. 

I suppose segregation isn't a surprise when you consider that they view non-humans as being further away from the Maker, per WoT.

[The Elder King]

@LobselVith: With 'dalish who are racists' I meant those dalish that are racists, not that every dalish is racist. I'll edit my post to clarify it.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 janvier 2014 - 10:15 .

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
And I've said plenty of times in the past that I give Orlais more blame. The Chantry haven't helped in recent times, but they were the ones who called the Exalted March when Orlais was losing the war. And the Chantry HAS aided Orlais in every major conflict, and we can see how they help Orlais in a war in "The Stolen Throne." 

And there are plenty of prominent characters from the games and books (mainly the books) who make it clear that the Chantry isn't seen as a religious organization, but an Orlesian one. 

I give humans and Orlais a huge chunk of the blame, but saying that the Chantry is blameless when they're the ones who removed the Canticle of Shartan, decreed all elves HAD to live in alienages and were the ones who called the Exalted March that ended up making the Dalish lose the war to be equally naive as saying they have all the blame. 

look at those goalposts move.

nothing you bring up here save the single specific mention of the Alienages, has anything to do with the City Elves.  And, for the third time, the Chantry saved the City Elves from annihilation by forcing humanity to allow them to live in the Alienages.

maybe you haven't figured it out yet, but the Chantry is big on segregation to promote safety.  It's a recurring theme.  One not born of malice, but because it is often the best solution at the time.  In the case of the Alienages, nothing else would have worked, and once they were entrenched in human culture, removing them has become an unnecessary and ugly battle, well outside the remit of the Chantry.

I moved goalposts? On what issue? The Chantry? I give Orlais, and many humans majority blame for how elves are treated, but make it clear that I don't hold the Chantry completely at fault or completely blameless. I point out that many people in the games see the Chantry largely as an Orlesian organization before a religious one, and this same organization has a very strong history of supporting Orlais in major conflicts, which is the country that destroyed the Dales, after an Exalted March was declared I might add, and was called when Val Reayeaoux itself was threated, which is home of the Grand Cathedral. 

And I haven't addressed the Chantry saving elves from annihalation simply because there is no argument to be made against it. It's true, and that's why the Chantry isn't as much to blame for the racism. (Overlooking the templars who say they don't care one whit for 'those knife-ears' on Sundermount obviously.)

But they don't do anything to stifle it either. 

Everything I have said is a matter of fact in the history of Thedas. The Chantry removed the Canticle of Shartan, decreed all elves had to live in alienages, and while it may have saved them from complete genocide by vengeful Orlesians, it wouldn't have need to happen at all if they hadn't declared an Exalted March against the Dales the moment it was obvious Orlais was losing the war, and was about to lose its capital, where the Chantry is also housed. 

It's just that simple.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm suddenly reminded of why I want to help the Elvhen while leaving Orlais to rot.

After that bit of speculation, who wouldn't ?

Mind... just because that's what Gaspard -might- want doesn't mean it's going to be what he gets. You can hope for aces all you want, you have to play with the hand you're dealt. Not to mention that there will be other players about.

For all we know... Celene might be the one to give the elves a homeland. Even if they fight against her. It'd be a great way to bribe them after all.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

And yet, the Dalish raised Aveline, signed a treaty with the Wardens when the Blights threatened the human nations, ostracized Velanna over her bigotry towards humans, and welcomed Feynriel into the Sabrae clan (and protected him). I don't get why some people act like the Dalish are one-dimensional racists. Or why anyone is surprised that the Dalish expect hostility from strangers when templars pursue them and Andrastians threaten them to convert.

Aveline is the only instance where the Dalish weren't blatantly self-serving, and we know nothing about their motives in doing so.

The Wardens are not a human organization, and not only accept all races without concern, but more importantly are race blind when it comes to protection from the Darkspawn.

Velanna was ostracized because her actions posed a direct threat to her clan.  By indescriminately murdering humans, she was setting her clan up to be wiped out by the inevitable human reprisal.  It had nothing to do with being upset some shemlen died, and everything to do with not wanting to be wiped out because of her stupidity.

it's telling that Feynriel was only accepted by the Dalish after they discovered he was the rarest and most powerful Mage they'd seen in generations.  Prior to that, he was unwelcome among them.

every example you gave, save the one we have almost no information on, was an example of the Dalish being self-serving rather than tolerant.

[In Exile]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
Except when it isn't / doesn't - unless a government exercising its right of eminent domain meets those criteria.

Eminent domain is quite different from country-to-country and, ignoring how it is very rare and applies at the scale of individuals and not nations, often involves some form of financial compensation. Not always, so there is a wealth transfer from individuals to government, but that's a very different kind of abuse (if we can even call it that). 

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
You mean the Chantry in which only one priest ever comes out to or ministers at the Alienage in Denerim, making it very likely that many/most priests in most places don't bother with elves, therefor they have to rely on the good will of the occasional cheritable individual instead of the whole Chantry? (The Chantry which deliberately wrote positive elven involvement out of the Chant of Light to promote anti-elf sentiment, and never bothered to put back in?)

To add to that, this is also the Chantry that had a military force and sufficient political pull to stop kidnapping, rape and murder from happenining but did not care. Vaughn, when he appears, is committing a crime. Elves aren't chattel. The inherent racism in Andrastian society - and the fundamental indiference, if not absolute disregard, of the Chantry - is exemplified in the fact that they took absolutely no action to interefere with someone who committed serious crimes in a public forum with over one hundred witnesses. 

Or over seven centuries, apparently.

Or ever, if the issue isn't forced. The elves won't ever be equal until they force humans to recognize that. Which is why the CEs rising up and arming themselves is the right step, even if it's dangerous. 

[In Exile]

TK514 wrote...
None of which had anything to do with the Chantry.  The Chantry forced humanity to build enclaves in their cities and allow the Elves to live there, with the only condition being that the elves convert.  Which, given that the Chantry is an organized religion with conversion being a primary goal and had just saved the elves from total annihilation, is an entirely reasonable request.

Telling Orlais to build a ghetto for a group of marginalized citizens isn't something that's worth praising. Yes, I suppose the Chantry was involved in something that was less of a crime against humanity (so to speak) than Orlais was, but they were still instrumental in forcing a complete eradication of the Dales' culture on the elves that they coralled in prison pens. 

If Orlais was planning on killing every elf in the Dales, the Chantry isn't a hero for stopping it, Orlais is a monstrous evil for even contemplating it. 

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

Aveline is the only instance where the Dalish weren't blatantly self-serving, and we know nothing about their motives in doing so.

Their motive in raising an abandoned human baby?

TK514 wrote...

The Wardens are not a human organization, and not only accept all races without concern, but more importantly are race blind when it comes to protection from the Darkspawn.

And the Wardens help protect human nations from the darkspawn and are comprised of a fair number of humans.

TK514 wrote...

Velanna was ostracized because her actions posed a direct threat to her clan.  By indescriminately murdering humans, she was setting her clan up to be wiped out by the inevitable human reprisal.  It had nothing to do with being upset some shemlen died, and everything to do with not wanting to be wiped out because of her stupidity.

Velanna fights the humans after she left the clan, since they didn't want her to retaliate against the humans. Her clan is surprised to see her among humans when she accompanies the Warden-Commander, and none of them show any disdain for humanity.

TK514 wrote...

it's telling that Feynriel was only accepted by the Dalish after they discovered he was the rarest and most powerful Mage they'd seen in generations.  Prior to that, he was unwelcome among them.

every example you gave, save the one we have almost no information on, was an example of the Dalish being self-serving rather than tolerant. 

Feynriel was accepted in the clan in Act I. We find out he's a Dreamer in Act II, after Marethari looks into it because of his growing nightmares.

[Beerfish]

I still don't know exactly what the Dalish want. Do they actually want a piece of land to settle in for good? A nation of their own?

One thing that bugs me about them is their seeming disregard or looking down on their city brethern who have it worse than the Dalish.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...
it's telling that Feynriel was only accepted by the Dalish after they discovered he was the rarest and most powerful Mage they'd seen in generations.  Prior to that, he was unwelcome among them.

Then pray tell, why did Marethari want to send him to Tevinter so that he could be safer then? Why would they give up such a "powerful" mage?

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
And the Wardens help protect human nations from the darkspawn and are comprised of a fair number of humans.

They also protect the Dalish, and all of the elves, and one of their greatest heroes (if not the greatest hero, beside the Warden) is an elf (and possibly Dalish; we don't know that for sure).

Velanna fights the humans after she left the clan, since they didn't want her to retaliate against the humans.

She fights humans after she leaves because her clan refused to follow her lead in fighting humans. "Your insane crusade will get us all killed!" is not the same as "We refuse to participate in racial based violence". 

Feynriel was accepted in the clan in Act I. We find out he's a Dreamer in Act II, after Marethari looks into it because of his growing nightmares.

Yes, and Merrill tells us that the Dalish will might accept him because (a) his mother was Dalish but ( the clan will hold his being a human against him (paraphrasing, "it is your humanity that will mark you among [the people]" or something to that effect). 

Edit: 

That is not to say that this is proof that the Dalish are somehow racist - it's certainly not. It's just that your examples aren't proof that the Dalish are anymore tolerant of humans that humans are of CEs. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 janvier 2014 - 10:41 .