1258 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
Some people are basically equating the notion of self-determination (minus any other ancillary philosophy espoused by each individual clan) with a form of prejudice (in this case racism), which I think is overly simplistic.

The racial prejudice is part and parcel of Dalish mythology. While the clans might differ in culture, there is no indication that any of the clans (a) have a different account about the fall of Arlathan; ( a different account about what elves were before their so-called quickening; or © a different account of how the elves became who they are today, e.g. mortal and not all mages. So in that regard, the racial purity ideology is baked into their very identity as Dalish.

Of course, some people are just jumping on individual elves, being quite bitter about their situation, their historical abuse, and their treatment in general, and blaming them for being racist hostile (e.g. the hostile reception some of the Dalish in DA:O can give you if, as an outsider, you question their beliefs - human or CE). That's not racist. What Zathrian and Velanna do is racism, for a host of (unrelated) reasons, but those are the only two examples we see of individual Dalish being racist, beside the racism built into their shared culture. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 janvier 2014 - 10:50 .

[The Elder King]

@MasterScribe: I don't believe that every dalish is racist, and I'm not equating the Notion of self-determination with racism. When I said that some dalish are racist, I'm referring to the instances in-game were those dalish show racism about humans.
Edit: I agree with in Exile that showing hostility to humans isn't a sign of racism. I don't recall if there are other dalish in the games like Zathrian and Velanna, but those are the type of dalish I was talking about.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 janvier 2014 - 10:56 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't believe there's ever been mention of the Chantry helping Orlais with their wars with Nevarra.

That is because there never were any.

dragonflight288 wrote...
I moved goalposts? On what issue? The Chantry? I give Orlais, and many humans majority blame for how elves are treated, but make it clear that I don't hold the Chantry completely at fault or completely blameless. I point out that many people in the games see the Chantry largely as an Orlesian organization before a religious one, and this same organization has a very strong history of supporting Orlais in major conflicts, which is the country that destroyed the Dales, after an Exalted March was declared I might add, and was called when Val Reayeaoux itself was threated, which is home of the Grand Cathedral. 

Considering that the Chantry was barely a century old at the time, and had not even spread that far yet, I would say that the Chantry itself was threatened with destruction with the possible destruction of Val Royaux. So you fault the Chantry, and Orlais, for using the resources at their disposal to win a war, that was going badly for them both at the time?

dragonflight288 wrote...
And I haven't addressed the Chantry saving elves from annihalation simply because there is no argument to be made against it. It's true, and that's why the Chantry isn't as much to blame for the racism. (Overlooking the templars who say they don't care one whit for 'those knife-ears' on Sundermount obviously.)

But they don't do anything to stifle it either. 

The Elves are to blame for the racism that they face. At first they raid the town of Red Crossing, during which they are said to have commited unspeakable atrocities. I would normally be willing to pass that off as propaganda from Orlais, but then we later hear about Dalish banditry and murdering of humans. Why exactly should the humans NOT be wary of Elves? Sadly the actions of the Dalish reflect badly upon the innocent City Elves, which are the ones that really suffer the consequences.

dragonflight288 wrote...
Everything I have said is a matter of fact in the history of Thedas. The Chantry removed the Canticle of Shartan, decreed all elves had to live in alienages, and while it may have saved them from complete genocide by vengeful Orlesians, it wouldn't have need to happen at all if they hadn't declared an Exalted March against the Dales the moment it was obvious Orlais was losing the war, and was about to lose its capital, where the Chantry is also housed. 

It's just that simple.

No it is not that simple. Not by a long shot.

The Chantry had every reason concievable to remove the Canticle of Shartan. Why would the Chantry continue to honour Shartan, when his people had just recently raped, murdered and pillaged their way across the country? Shartan is still remembered by the historians, so it is not like he is being written out of history.

The Chantry also had every reason to aid Orlais in the war against the Dales, but then again, it was still only Orlesians who joiend the Exalted march, so they probably would ahve joined the war sooner or later anyway.

And given the atrocities the Elves are said to have commited during the war, which may not be true but the people believes in it, then the act of showing the ELves mercy and ordering all nations loyal to the Chantry to give the Elves land to live on, shows an  incredible amount of clemency from the Chantry's part. That the nations chose only to give the Elves the alienages to live in, is not the fault of the Chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I give humans and Orlais a huge chunk of the blame, but saying that the Chantry is blameless when they're the ones who removed the Canticle of Shartan, decreed all elves HAD to live in alienages and were the ones who called the Exalted March that ended up making the Dalish lose the war to be equally naive as saying they have all the blame.

Nope.
No HAD.
There is no law that forces the elves in the alianage,and certanly not any law decreed by the Chantry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MasterScribe wrote...

This isn't directed at any one person or group of people, but believing that the Dalish are a monolithic group incapable of progress is racist.

It denigrates the Dalish as merely elves who aren't conforming to what is socially (or rather, humanly) acceptable.

It's a belief saying that elves shouldn't be Dalish. That they should instead be X or Y or Z, like other elves, because those don't frighten the humans as much.

Saying someone is stupid because of the way they conduct themselves is not racist just because the person happens to be black.
The same goes for the Dalish in this case. The way the Dalish act and interact with others, prevents them from ever advancing. And that is stupid.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 janvier 2014 - 11:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

In Exile wrote...

Faerunner wrote...
You mean the Chantry in which only one priest ever comes out to or ministers at the Alienage in Denerim, making it very likely that many/most priests in most places don't bother with elves, therefor they have to rely on the good will of the occasional cheritable individual instead of the whole Chantry? (The Chantry which deliberately wrote positive elven involvement out of the Chant of Light to promote anti-elf sentiment, and never bothered to put back in?)

To add to that, this is also the Chantry that had a military force and sufficient political pull to stop kidnapping, rape and murder from happenining but did not care. Vaughn, when he appears, is committing a crime. Elves aren't chattel. The inherent racism in Andrastian society - and the fundamental indiference, if not absolute disregard, of the Chantry - is exemplified in the fact that they took absolutely no action to interefere with someone who committed serious crimes in a public forum with over one hundred witnesses.

a) proof that no oneelsefrom the Chantry cares orvisits an Alianage?

proof that most in the Chantry are even aware what Vaughn isdoing

c) proof that they have proof to act againt him? A dozen alianage elves vs. lord knows how many "witnesses" Vaughn could provide? Let's not forget that moving against a noble might be an unpopular move in Ferelden.

[cjones91]

A Chantry sister was there when Vaughn showed uped to kidnap the elven girls,she could've easily went to the Chantry that is in the Denerim townsquare.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MasterScribe wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The same goes for the Dalish in this case. The way the Dalish act and interact with others, prevents them from ever advancing. And that is stupid.

That's still racist. You believe that the actions of some elves (those that are NOT Dalish) should be the actions of all elves (non-Dalish AND Dalish).

It really isn't though. And what you describe is neither my stance, nor is it even remotely related to racism..

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

A Chantry sister was there when Vaughn showed uped to kidnap the elven girls,she could've easily went to the Chantry that is in the Denerim townsquare.

And what exactly would the Chantry be suppsoed to do about it in those two whole hours they had before the Elves decided vigilantism was the best idea? It isn't eactly like secular law enforcement is the territory of the Chantry. But by all means, keep blaming the Chantry for things they aren't even remotely a part of.

[cjones91]

Who said I was blaming the Chantry?I simply stated they did very little to prevent Vaugh.But you seem to think the City Elves should've sat on on their hands while a noble rapes and murders their women.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

Who said I was blaming the Chantry?I simply stated they did very little to prevent Vaugh.But you seem to think the City Elves should've sat on on their hands while a noble rapes and murders their women.

Not really. They only had two choices, since the city guard certainly wasn't going to help, and that was to either do nothing, or take matters into their own hands. I cannot fault them for their actions given the circumstances.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think people seriously overestimate the power the Chantry has over every day life in various nations if they think it could have done anything about Vaughn's behavior. At least in time to make a difference.

[The Hierophant]

I doubt a lowly sister's accusations would mean much against a respected noble. Even if the local Grand Cleric or Knight Commander were told of what transpired they'd have to run that by the city watch due to jurisdiction, and the latter are likely to be paid to look the other way.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 23 janvier 2014 - 12:49 .

[Mirrman70]

ianvillan wrote...

Mirrman70 wrote...

I believe that if any group of elves were to be given a nation of their own (bad idea in the first place) the City Elves should get since they seem to have the best chance at coexistence. The Dalish are classic model of "these people repressed me so I'm going to repress them given the chance". I remember in the Dalish Origin that you were able to kill those two dudes without even batting an eye if you wanted to, which to me shows that due to the repression caused by men the Dalish have developed a sort of tunnel vision when it comes to dealing with humans. Not all Dalish are this hostile to humans but the majority of the ones seen so far are. Giving them an artificial homeland out of pity would only end badly as they would try to do the isolation thing again and eventually the humans would see that as a form of aggression and would reconquer them.

So because the Elves would want to be left alone to worship who they want and have their own customs it is fine for the Humans to kill them.

Why is it justified for Humans to force their beliefs and customs on the Elves and if the Elves refuse to allow it the Humans can kill them with no consequence.

I also don't believe that Orlais will allow the city elves to leave anyway because their whole infrastructure relies on the Elven slave labour.

I am not saying it is ok but inevitable if they choose isolationism. They can believe whatever they want for all I care, that is not what I am pushing it is hard for a nation that shares borders with others to maintain peaceful relations as well as practice isolationism. the only way isolationism would be a plausible choice is if they were an island nation and had no adjacent neighbors. Isolationism breeds distrust just as much as open hostility. how would you feel if your neighbor who you never saw eye to eye with suddenly built a wall around their property 30 feet high with electrified razor wire at the top. you would most likely become suspicious.
 

[TK514]

The Hierophant wrote...

I doubt a lowly sister's accusations would mean much against a respected noble. Even if the local Grand Cleric or Knight Commander were told of what transpired they'd have to run that by the city watch due to jurisdiction, and the latter are likely to be paid to look the other way.

On top of the fact that the Chantry in Fetelden has so little prestige vs the Nobility that the birth city of Andraste Herself has a Chantry house smaller than a visiting noble's "city home"'.

The Chantry sister would need to return to the Chantry, report in, have that message work it's way to the Revered Mother who would then have to send someone to the secular authorities, which would then have to work its way to the head of the Guard, since no commoner guard would have the clout or stupidity to dispatch an accusation against a noble.  Then the Guard Captain would have to send someone to investigate, under his seal, while they in turn would have to contact the Arl.

And before any of the meaningful parts of that could have happened,the elves have already dealt with the situation.

Modifié par TK514, 23 janvier 2014 - 02:13 .

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I doubt a lowly sister's accusations would mean much against a respected noble. Even if the local Grand Cleric or Knight Commander were told of what transpired they'd have to run that by the city watch due to jurisdiction, and the latter are likely to be paid to look the other way.

On top of the fact that the Chantry in Fetelden has so little prestige vs the Nobility that the birth city of Andraste Herself has a Chantry house smaller than a visiting noble's "city home"'.

Well, the Chantry has such little power in part because of how they supported Orlais over Ferelden during the last occupation.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...
it's telling that Feynriel was only accepted by the Dalish after they discovered he was the rarest and most powerful Mage they'd seen in generations.  Prior to that, he was unwelcome among them.

Then pray tell, why did Marethari want to send him to Tevinter so that he could be safer then? Why would they give up such a "powerful" mage?

I know, right?  Why would Marethari send away a guy who she told Hawke to kill if he couldn't be saved because he would be so terrifyingly powerful?  A guy with not one, not two, but three major demons in his head at once, and who was one human and one rare and dangerous ritual away from succumbing to either of two of them.

I can't imagine why she would want someone so dangerous and at risk every night of his life as far away from her clan as possible.

 Which, amusingly enough, is why normal people want Mages in Circles.

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...

This isn't directed at any one person or group of people, but believing that the Dalish are a monolithic group incapable of progress is racist.

Yes. 

It denigrates the Dalish as merely elves who aren't conforming to what is socially (or rather, humanly) acceptable.

No. It could, but that depends on the actual reason offered for believing the Dalish are a monolithic group. 

It's a belief saying that elves shouldn't be Dalish. That they should instead be X or Y or Z, like other elves, because those don't frighten the humans as much.

Yes, but saying that elves shouldn't be Dalish (if someone says that) doesn't mean that elves should be subservient. One could support far more militant elves that abandon the idea of the Dales and push for a renewned Arlathan (like me, for the CEs). 

[In Exile]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
a) proof that no oneelsefrom the Chantry cares orvisits an Alianage?

The fact that Duncan is an unwelcome spectacle, only allowed in because of his friendship with the Elder. 

proof that most in the Chantry are even aware what Vaughn isdoing

There is a Sister who witnessed it. Unless her word is worthless, that's all that's enough, combined with the elves. 

c) proof that they have proof to act againt him? A dozen alianage elves vs. lord knows how many "witnesses" Vaughn could provide? Let's not forget that moving against a noble might be an unpopular move in Ferelden. 

You mean, Vaughn could convince the elves to testify for him? Because if he prevents a veritable army of humans that were all ostensibly there, well, that's unbelievable in itself. 

And while moving against a criminal noble might be unpopular, the Chantry allowed the elves to be abused and raped like chattel for realpolitik reasons is absolutely dispicable. 

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I doubt a lowly sister's accusations would mean much against a respected noble. Even if the local Grand Cleric or Knight Commander were told of what transpired they'd have to run that by the city watch due to jurisdiction, and the latter are likely to be paid to look the other way.

On top of the fact that the Chantry in Fetelden has so little prestige vs the Nobility that the birth city of Andraste Herself has a Chantry house smaller than a visiting noble's "city home"'.

Well, the Chantry has such little power in part because of how they supported Orlais over Ferelden during the last occupation.

True, but irrelevant when accusing them of not helping in an instance when they had little or no power to help.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You have a skewered of view of how the justice system works in Ferelden. Vaughn is a noble, the son of an Arl. An Elf would NEVER win a case against Vaughn, much less even be allowed to prosecute him. As a noble Vaughn basically gets a free pass on anything he does, unless other nobles are offended by his actions. Vaughn focusing on Elves, pretty much ensures that no other noble is going to care what he is doing, and as such no case would ever arise from it.