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[In Exile]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You have a skewered of view of how the justice system works in Ferelden.

Actually, Bioware has a skewed view of how the medieval justice system worked, but that's a common fantasy trope so no foul there. The problem is the realpolitik analysis you have.

Vaughn is a noble, the son of an Arl. An Elf would NEVER win a case against Vaughn, much less even be allowed to prosecute him.

Vaughn has valuable landholdings and position that is highly coveted by many nobles, even with the Crown on his side, that just means that political opponents of the Crown have an interest in his downfall. Having the arl's son disowned as a murder and removed from the line of succession is a significant win for anyone interest. 

The Chantry can stop the offence through its templars, and bring down Vaughn through his enemies. Crimes are incredible weapons in politics - this is why corru[t regimes always have dissidents brought up on charges and have the losers in political infighting suddenly get charged with things like bribery etc. 

If the Chantry had any interest in protecting the elves, it could. It won't, because it doesn't care. 

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
That's exactly the argument that some are making. They perceive the Dalish as a monolithic group whose beliefs are hindering them and that "bending over backwards" to the humans is the only way to succeed.

I'm aware that this is what some people believe. I'm just saying it's not the only thing one could believe. 

Isn't that what the Dales was supposed to be?

Whatever the Dales were, they don't exist anymore. It's time for the elves to create a new Mecca for themselves that moves them forward, not backwards. The Dales are an echo of an echo. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

In Exile wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You have a skewered of view of how the justice system works in Ferelden.

Actually, Bioware has a skewed view of how the medieval justice system worked, but that's a common fantasy trope so no foul there. The problem is the realpolitik analysis you have.

What makes you think that Ferelden should follow medieval justice systems? Besides, it is a fine enough approximation as it is, in that a noble can get away with basically anything, as long as he doesn't ****** off another noble.

In Exile wrote...

Vaughn is a noble, the son of an Arl. An Elf would NEVER win a case against Vaughn, much less even be allowed to prosecute him.

Vaughn has valuable landholdings and position that is highly coveted by many nobles, even with the Crown on his side, that just means that political opponents of the Crown have an interest in his downfall. Having the arl's son disowned as a murder and removed from the line of succession is a significant win for anyone interest. 

No noble would stand up to defend Elves, since that would mean they would be known as an Elf sympathizer, and that would also weaken them. Furthermore Vaughan didn't kill any Elf himself, which means he never commited any serious crime to begin with. (serious as in it would hurt his father if it came out). So no, there is absolutely no reason for any other noble to intervene on this matter. Not to mention that they didn't even have time to attempt to, before the Elves turned to vigilantism, and turned this entire point moot.

In Exile wrote...
The Chantry can stop the offence through its templars, and bring down Vaughn through his enemies. Crimes are incredible weapons in politics - this is why corru[t regimes always have dissidents brought up on charges and have the losers in political infighting suddenly get charged with things like bribery etc. 

If the Chantry had any interest in protecting the elves, it could. It won't, because it doesn't care. 

You think the Chantry would want to use their Templars to enforce the law if it were humans who had been taken? Dream on. We are talking the Arl of Denerims son here, the son of one of the probably most influential nobles in Ferelden, and you want the Chantry, who already hold a tenious grasp in Ferelden at best, to make enemies with him? What EXACTLY would the Chantry gain from this? You have to pick battles you can win, and of these the ones you profit the most from is favorable. This in particular is an example of neither.

[DPSSOC]

MasterScribe wrote...
I'm not sure where the discussion has gone, but are some people really under the impression that the Dalish are a monolithic group?

The Dalish are comprised of many different clans that "rarely encounter each other", except every decade or so during the Arlathvhen.

Surely, the Dalish clans develop along different paths and have different interpretations of Dalish culture.

We've encountered 2 Dalish clans, can you point out any meaningful difference between them?

MasterScribe wrote...
I think the one commonality amongst the clans (besides race) is the belief in self-determination, much like the mages involved in the mage-templar war. Or hell, the city elves rebelling in Orlais.

I'd disagree.  Their one commonality (if we're going to say they only have one) is a superiority complex.  Despite being beaten down repeatedly they still hold the view that they're better than everyone.  Case in point, both clans we deal with have a problem they're unable to deal with on their own (Werewolves and darkspawn) both of them resent the notion of a Non-Dalish helping.

MasterScribe wrote...
Some people are basically equating the notion of self-determination (minus any other ancillary philosophy espoused by each individual clan) with a form of prejudice (in this case racism), which I think is overly simplistic.

Not really.  Most people don't have a problem with the Dalish wanting to do their own thing, most of those who do have more of an issue with how they want to go about doing it because it's, to be blunt, stupid.  They're considered racist because of their frequent and universal use of racial slurs and the fact that most of them have said something to the effect of, "Things would be better if not for you filthy humans"

MasterScribe wrote...
This isn't directed at any one person or group of people, but believing that the Dalish are a monolithic group incapable of progress is racist.

It denigrates the Dalish as merely elves who aren't conforming to what is socially (or rather, humanly) acceptable.

It's a belief saying that elves shouldn't be Dalish. That they should instead be X or Y or Z, like other elves, because those don't frighten the humans as much.

Not really.  The Dalish are viewed as a monolithic group because that's how they present themselves (We are the Dalish, the last of the Elvenhan).  The conclusion that they're incapable of progress stems from the fact that they adhere to a philosophy of social regression.  They want to recreate an earlier time in their history when things were better for them.  Saying the Dalish are a monolithic group incapable of progress is no more racist than saying the Amish are.

[The Hierophant]

TK514 wrote...

On top of the fact that the Chantry in Fetelden has so little prestige vs the Nobility that the birth city of Andraste Herself has a Chantry house smaller than a visiting noble's "city home"'.

The Chantry sister would need to return to the Chantry, report in, have that message work it's way to the Revered Mother who would then have to send someone to the secular authorities, which would then have to work its way to the head of the Guard, since no commoner guard would have the clout or stupidity to dispatch an accusation against a noble.  Then the Guard Captain would have to send someone to investigate, under his seal, while they in turn would have to contact the Arl.

And before any of the meaningful parts of that could have happened,the elves have already dealt with the situation.

Agreed.

[cjones91]

DPSSOC wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...
I'm not sure where the discussion has gone, but are some people really under the impression that the Dalish are a monolithic group?

The Dalish are comprised of many different clans that "rarely encounter each other", except every decade or so during the Arlathvhen.

Surely, the Dalish clans develop along different paths and have different interpretations of Dalish culture.

We've encountered 2 Dalish clans, can you point out any meaningful difference between them?

MasterScribe wrote...
I think the one commonality amongst the clans (besides race) is the belief in self-determination, much like the mages involved in the mage-templar war. Or hell, the city elves rebelling in Orlais.

I'd disagree.  Their one commonality (if we're going to say they only have one) is a superiority complex.  Despite being beaten down repeatedly they still hold the view that they're better than everyone.  Case in point, both clans we deal with have a problem they're unable to deal with on their own (Werewolves and darkspawn) both of them resent the notion of a Non-Dalish helping.

MasterScribe wrote...
Some people are basically equating the notion of self-determination (minus any other ancillary philosophy espoused by each individual clan) with a form of prejudice (in this case racism), which I think is overly simplistic.

Not really.  Most people don't have a problem with the Dalish wanting to do their own thing, most of those who do have more of an issue with how they want to go about doing it because it's, to be blunt, stupid.  They're considered racist because of their frequent and universal use of racial slurs and the fact that most of them have said something to the effect of, "Things would be better if not for you filthy humans"

MasterScribe wrote...
This isn't directed at any one person or group of people, but believing that the Dalish are a monolithic group incapable of progress is racist.

It denigrates the Dalish as merely elves who aren't conforming to what is socially (or rather, humanly) acceptable.

It's a belief saying that elves shouldn't be Dalish. That they should instead be X or Y or Z, like other elves, because those don't frighten the humans as much.

Not really.  The Dalish are viewed as a monolithic group because that's how they present themselves (We are the Dalish, the last of the Elvenhan).  The conclusion that they're incapable of progress stems from the fact that they adhere to a philosophy of social regression.  They want to recreate an earlier time in their history when things were better for them.  Saying the Dalish are a monolithic group incapable of progress is no more racist than saying the Amish are.

And most humans have the same view yet I don't see people jumping down their throats whenever they use terms like 'knife ears'.It's always the Dalish for some reason.

[TK514]

cjones91 wrote...
And most humans have the same view yet I don't see people jumping down their throats whenever they use terms like 'knife ears'.It's always the Dalish for some reason.

Maybe because people don't start thread after thread, page after page after page, trying to defend humanity's many failings.  Most of us recognize that humanity has done some pretty crap things over the centuries.  Tevinter still is, among others.  We just don't excuse the Dalish for the crappy things they've done, the stupid things they are doing, or the horrific things some people would want them to do in the future.

"He did it to me last week" is the sort of justification you'd expect on a kindergarten playground.

[cjones91]

TK514 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
And most humans have the same view yet I don't see people jumping down their throats whenever they use terms like 'knife ears'.It's always the Dalish for some reason.

Maybe because people don't start thread after thread, page after page after page, trying to defend humanity's many failings.  Most of us recognize that humanity has done some pretty crap things over the centuries.  Tevinter still is, among others.  We just don't excuse the Dalish for the crappy things they've done, the stupid things they are doing, or the horrific things some people would want them to do in the future.

"He did it to me last week" is the sort of justification you'd expect on a kindergarten playground.

So it's totally okay to paint one side as racists because some people have made multiple threads about that particular group?

[addiction21]

TK514 wrote...

Maybe because people don't start thread after thread, page after page after page, trying to defend humanity's many failings.  Most of us recognize that humanity has done some pretty crap things over the centuries.  Tevinter still is, among others.  We just don't excuse the Dalish for the crappy things they've done, the stupid things they are doing, or the horrific things some people would want them to do in the future.

"He did it to me last week" is the sort of justification you'd expect on a kindergarten playground.

This.
 
No one disputes the problems with the Humans, Chantry or Templars. 

The only people that even try to make that a issue are those who are happy to excuse their chosen group (elves or mages) for the same behavior and shift all of that on to a different group.

I call so many of the posters in these threads hypocrites because they are happy to judge and damn one side for the very same things their chosen groups live by.

"there are two sides to ever story" means nothing when you take one side as fact and the other as lies.

Or how "they are not the only ones that are racist" while ignoring that and how perpetuating that belief only harms themselves is moronic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...
So it's totally okay to paint one side as racists because some people have made multiple threads about that particular group?

Has anyone here claimed that humans can't be racists? Has anyone claimed that ALL Dalish by definition are racist?

Dalish CULTURE is what spreads racisms to its adherents. Of course, since they are al individuals, not all Dalish are racist, but their very culture breeds it.
The same goes for humans. But then again, no one is continuesly attempting to excuse and justify human racism..

[Hellion Rex]

Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya

[cjones91]

@Emperor I'm pretty sure several posts in this very thread have claimed only Dalish are racists.

@Addiction,So we're all hypocrites and you are somehow above it all huh?Please,the fact you have acted with hostility towards several posters including me when I have done and said nothing to earn such treatment makes you look the true hypocrite here

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dalish CULTURE is what spreads racisms to its adherents.

I don't think this has been adequately established.  Dalish culture spreads the belief that humans caused the downfall of elves.  But I don't see how we can call that racist if we don't have some reason to think that this belief is false.

[TK514]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dalish CULTURE is what spreads racisms to its adherents.

I don't think this has been adequately established.  Dalish culture spreads the belief that humans caused the downfall of elves.  But I don't see how we can call that racist if we don't have some reason to think that this belief is false.

We've got 45 pages of reasons to think that claim is false, or at the very least to think the Elves are just as responsible for their situation as anyone.

[ianvillan]

addiction21 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Maybe because people don't start thread after thread, page after page after page, trying to defend humanity's many failings.  Most of us recognize that humanity has done some pretty crap things over the centuries.  Tevinter still is, among others.  We just don't excuse the Dalish for the crappy things they've done, the stupid things they are doing, or the horrific things some people would want them to do in the future.

"He did it to me last week" is the sort of justification you'd expect on a kindergarten playground.

This.
 
No one disputes the problems with the Humans, Chantry or Templars. 

The only people that even try to make that a issue are those who are happy to excuse their chosen group (elves or mages) for the same behavior and shift all of that on to a different group.

I call so many of the posters in these threads hypocrites because they are happy to judge and damn one side for the very same things their chosen groups live by.

"there are two sides to ever story" means nothing when you take one side as fact and the other as lies.

Or how "they are not the only ones that are racist" while ignoring that and how perpetuating that belief only harms themselves is moronic.

There have been many people who excuse the Humans, Chantry and Templars in this thread and others about the same subjects.

A lot of people take the Chantry version of the past as fact and call the Dalish liars because one Elf did not like Humans when he told the story, excusing the Chantry who also did not like Elves but their word is accepted as gospel.

A lot of people actually blame the Elves for refusing to convert their beliefs to the Chantry when asked and say that they were wrong to leave Humans alone.

The Chantry and the other nations from the Orlisan empire have shown their racism and hatred towards the Elves but because they won the war they are justified in it, Yet because the Dalish refuse to become slaves and refuse to convert their beliefs they are somehow in the wrong.

Their have been many who have wanted the Dalish wiped out because they refuse to bow to the Chantry, yet they are up in arms about the Dalish being granted a homeland because they say the Elves will go on a bloody rampage and rape and murder every Human around.

[The Elder King]

cjones91 wrote...

@Emperor I'm pretty sure several posts in this very thread have claimed only Dalish are racists.

I didn't read any claim like this, but I haven't read all the pages in the thread. A person should be completely blind to believe that humans (or dwarves) can't be racists in Thedas.

MasterScribe wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Yes, but saying that elves shouldn't be Dalish (if someone says that) doesn't mean that elves should be subservient.

That's
exactly the argument that some are making. They perceive the Dalish as a
monolithic group whose beliefs are hindering them and that "bending
over backwards" to the humans is the only way to succeed.

I believe that an elven state would never survive unless elves and humans find a way to coexist. That means that both elves and humans have to change ther stance.
Unless the dalish became enough powerful to survive any possible conflict alone (which I really doubt is possible), they have to learn to coexist with the humans. That doesn't mean that they should change their beliefs, their religion or their culture, or that they should submit to the humans. It means that their stance about humanity has to change (though as I said, humanity's stance has to change too).

Modifié par hhh89, 23 janvier 2014 - 11:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

In Exile wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
a) proof that no one els efrom the Chantry cares or visits an Alianage?

The fact that Duncan is an unwelcome spectacle, only allowed in because of his friendship with the Elder. 

And this proves...what exactly?

proof that most in the Chantry are even aware what Vaughn isdoing

There is a Sister who witnessed it. Unless her word is worthless, that's all that's enough, combined with the elves.

Against a noble?
Her word would be worthless.

c) proof that they have proof to act againt him? A dozen alianage elves vs. lord knows how many "witnesses" Vaughn could provide? Let's not forget that moving against a noble might be an unpopular move in Ferelden. 

You mean, Vaughn could convince the elves to testify for him? Because if he prevents a veritable army of humans that were all ostensibly there, well, that's unbelievable in itself.

You mean that all the humans that were there wouldn't testify for him?
Or that his entire household and noble friends wouldn't testify he was back at home at that time?
Or that the guards taking the testimonies couldn't be bribed to wrtie down the opposite?

He is a powerfull noble with lots of money and powerfull friends.

And while moving against a criminal noble might be unpopular, the Chantry allowed the elves to be abused and raped like chattel for realpolitik reasons is absolutely dispicable.

And there is little the "Chantry" could have done.
The Chantry doesn't police the alianage nor does it have any legal rights to do so.

[ianvillan]

In Exile wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
a) proof that no oneelsefrom the Chantry cares orvisits an Alianage?

The fact that Duncan is an unwelcome spectacle, only allowed in because of his friendship with the Elder. 

proof that most in the Chantry are even aware what Vaughn isdoing

There is a Sister who witnessed it. Unless her word is worthless, that's all that's enough, combined with the elves. 

c) proof that they have proof to act againt him? A dozen alianage elves vs. lord knows how many "witnesses" Vaughn could provide? Let's not forget that moving against a noble might be an unpopular move in Ferelden. 

You mean, Vaughn could convince the elves to testify for him? Because if he prevents a veritable army of humans that were all ostensibly there, well, that's unbelievable in itself. 

And while moving against a criminal noble might be unpopular, the Chantry allowed the elves to be abused and raped like chattel for realpolitik reasons is absolutely dispicable. 

What makes you think the Chantry even thinks about the Elves at all. Elthina the reverend mother in Kirkwall did not even care about the abuses happening to the Mages, a group she is directly responsible for and is the one in charge of, if the Chantry is like that to Mages then they would be even less to a group of slaves that has no voice in the Chantry and that they have allowed to be treated badly for centuries, who they also view as inferior.

[Sir JK]

Ianvillain:

It's not strictly speaking that simple. Like the Dalish neither humanity (or any subset thereof) nor the Chantry is entirely monolithical.
There's probably plenty of people in the Chantry that cares and actively works to improve the lives of elves. Then there's likely a lot of members that don't care particularly much. Then there's the lot that cares, but won't actually do anything more than charity (ie. they'll give aid, but not change anything). Then there's probably even a minority that downright loathes or hates the elves.

And all these individuals will be working more or less independently, against and together with one another at the same time. No overarching goal, plan or coordination.

But even so... what would happen if the Divine herself stood up and said to the world: Stop oppressing the elves?

Absolutely nothing.

Because it's not -only- racism that keeps the elves down. There'll always be bastards like Vaughn and them being singled out because they're different. But not even collectively could they keep a people down. But the elves are also trapped in a vicious economic circle.

They're poor so they take second class jobs. They take second class jobs so people won't consider them for other jobs. Their jobs pays so poorly that they remain poor.

People don't give the elves these bads jobs because they're elves, much like why Hubert employs Fereldans in Kirkwall it is because they're cheap. That's why they end up as servants, dockworkers, miners, working in army camps and so forth. There's a need for cheap labour and the elves provide it.
Humanity won't change that because it's not concious. It'd be like not buying stuff that's on sale... on purpose.

To be clear again. I am not saying the elves aren't facing prejudice because they're elves. They are. It's also made worse because they're also facing prejudice because they're poor. These two will be virtually impossible to tell apart as well.
The fact that Vaughn can get away with what he does is equally much because they're elves, as that they're poor (so they couldn't pay anyone to bother trying to bring this to court) and that other people rely on Vaughn for jobs (the courts themselves).
In a sense, Vaughn is protected equally much by prejudice as by corruption, nepotism and unequal law.

And that's why all the good will in the world won't change a thing. Trying to bring the elves out of that bogmire of poverty and prejudice would require a massive influx of money, directed effort and coordination. It's a multigenerational effort that'd essentially require the full assets of the Chantry. And being the political organisation it is, it's therefore unlikely to do it. Because each and every divine will have their own priorities.

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

a) proof that no oneelsefrom the Chantry cares orvisits an Alianage?

When asked who will conduct the ceremony, Soris says "Mother Boann, I assume.  No other priest would come down here."  He could be mistaken or lying, but I can't see why he would.

Of course, I'm not sure human priests are very welcome.

[Mistress9Nine]

Sir JK wrote...
But even so... what would happen if the Divine herself stood up and said to the world: Stop oppressing the elves?

Absolutely nothing. 

I disagre. It takes away their legitimization.

An in-game example would be the oppression of mages. IMO one of the main things the Templars seperated from the Chantry was the fact that the Divine advocated reconciliation with the mages and the templars wanted to discredit her voice within their own ranks as well as among those more attached to the order than the Chantry. If they went against what their figurehead preached it would've been bad for their image.

Modifié par Mistress9Nine, 23 janvier 2014 - 03:24 .

[Sir JK]

Mistress9Nine wrote...

I disagre. It takes away their legitimization.

I'm not sure there is one, but if there is... it still won't change a thing until someone actively starts working for it for a few years. Poverty and oppression generally speaking don't need the okay of the elite to persist.

An in-game example would be the oppression of mages. IMO one of the main things the Templars seperated from the Chantry was the fact that the Divine advocated reconciliation with the mages and the templars wanted to discredit her voice within their own ranks as well as among those more attached to the order than the Chantry. If they went against what their figurehead preached it would've been bad for their image.

I think you're partially correct here. But I don't think the situations are entirely the same. The circles need to be actively maintained. They'd wither and die without support. The elven situation is entirely hands off. They don't need anything to continue forever.

[Dave of Canada]

Mistress9Nine wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
But even so... what would happen if the Divine herself stood up and said to the world: Stop oppressing the elves?

Absolutely nothing. 

I disagre. It takes away their legitimization.

An in-game example would be the oppression of mages. IMO one of the main things the Templars seperated from the Chantry was the fact that the Divine advocated reconciliation with the mages and the templars wanted to discredit her voice within their own ranks as well as among those more attached to the order than the Chantry. If they went against what their figurehead preached it would've been bad for their image.

The Templar left because the Divine was working behind their backs to help the mages and had her agents kill Templar who were doing their duty, it had nothing to do with her public opinions but her actions which prompted the seperation.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 janvier 2014 - 03:58 .

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

This.
 
No one disputes the problems with the Humans, Chantry or Templars.  

The only people that even try to make that a issue are those who are happy to excuse their chosen group (elves or mages) for the same behavior and shift all of that on to a different group.

I call so many of the posters in these threads hypocrites because they are happy to judge and damn one side for the very same things their chosen groups live by.

"there are two sides to ever story" means nothing when you take one side as fact and the other as lies.

Or how "they are not the only ones that are racist" while ignoring that and how perpetuating that belief only harms themselves is moronic. 

I pointed out there are "two sides to the story" because some people pretend there's only one side to the story, which is obvious from the actual back and forth exchanges that took place.

[Mirrman70]

This thread is going in circles...