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[Master Warder Z_]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mistress9Nine wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
But even so... what would happen if the Divine herself stood up and said to the world: Stop oppressing the elves?

Absolutely nothing. 

I disagre. It takes away their legitimization.

An in-game example would be the oppression of mages. IMO one of the main things the Templars seperated from the Chantry was the fact that the Divine advocated reconciliation with the mages and the templars wanted to discredit her voice within their own ranks as well as among those more attached to the order than the Chantry. If they went against what their figurehead preached it would've been bad for their image.

The Templar left because the Divine was working behind their backs to help the mages and had her agents kill Templar who were doing their duty, it had nothing to do with her public opinions but her actions which prompted the seperation.

Woman had no business sitting on the SunBurst throne.

:/ Traitor to the Faith and her duties.

[cjones91]

Traitor to who?If anything the Templars will be seen as traitors since they abandoned the Chantry.

[Fast Jimmy]

cjones91 wrote...

Traitor to who?If anything the Templars will be seen as traitors since they abandoned the Chantry.

Oooooooh... now you done gone did it.

[Dave of Canada]

cjones91 wrote...

Traitor to who?If anything the Templars will be seen as traitors since they abandoned the Chantry.

Templar are not part of the Chantry, they're allied with them. By being allies, they've co-operated with the Chantry in the creation of the Circle of Magi, an institution which was to be the duty of the Templar while the Chantry played the supplier role for both orders.

The Divine decided to work behind the Templar's back to assist their charges, assisting in undermining the efforts Templar had put into maintaining the Circles and removing the effectiveness of Templar rituals against mages. When the mages resisted with force the arrest of Rhys--a mage which evidence indicated was responsible for the murder--they were all put under arrest in their quarters.

The Divine decided to intervene with the Templar and called away their leadership and sent in her agents to kill the Templar guarding the mages and assist in their escape, showing her true colors to the Templar and prompting Lambert to null their partnership, as the Divine hadn't been holding her part of the bargain and killed members of the Templar Order.

As such, they're not traitors to the Chantry, the Divine is the one who had betrayed them and prompted the break-away. All the Templar need to rejoin the Chantry is the Divine to be overthrown with a new one in place, something I'm hoping can be accomplished.

Unless you're implying that Templar should sit by and let their "ally" undermine them, kill them and assist mages because of some belief that she can do what she wants without consequence?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 janvier 2014 - 06:26 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

lol every time you turn around in DA2 there is a blood mage elf.

[ianvillan]

Dave of Canada wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Traitor to who?If anything the Templars will be seen as traitors since they abandoned the Chantry.

Templar are not part of the Chantry, they're allied with them. By being allies, they've co-operated with the Chantry in the creation of the Circle of Magi, an institution which was to be the duty of the Templar while the Chantry played the supplier role for both orders.

The Divine decided to work behind the Templar's back to assist their charges, assisting in undermining the efforts Templar had put into maintaining the Circles and removing the effectiveness of Templar rituals against mages. When the mages resisted with force the arrest of Rhys--a mage which evidence indicated was responsible for the murder--they were all put under arrest in their quarters.

The Divine decided to intervene with the Templar and called away their leadership and sent in her agents to kill the Templar guarding the mages and assist in their escape, showing her true colors to the Templar and prompting Lambert to null their partnership, as the Divine hadn't been holding her part of the bargain and killed members of the Templar Order.

As such, they're not traitors to the Chantry, the Divine is the one who had betrayed them and prompted the break-away. All the Templar need to rejoin the Chantry is the Divine to be overthrown with a new one in place, something I'm hoping can be accomplished.

Unless you're implying that Templar should sit by and let their "ally" undermine them, kill them and assist mages because of some belief that she can do what she wants without consequence?

The Divine was helping the Mages who are not part of the Chantry but are allies to them as well.

When the Divine granted help to her ally after they requested it, the Templars who don't believe that the Mages are allies or equal decided to arrest them.

The Divine seeing that one of her allies constantly abusing the other and treating them differently then they swore they would had to act to help the mages because she knew the Templars were no longer going by the accords they had agreed too.

Modifié par ianvillan, 23 janvier 2014 - 07:25 .

[Fast Jimmy]

It took a while, but this thread is now what it was doomed to be from the start...

A Mage v. Templar thread.

[Dave of Canada]

ianvillan wrote...

The Devine was helping the Mages who are not part of the Chantry but are allies to them as well.

I don't get how this makes what the Divine did acceptable.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

It took a while, but this thread is now what it was doomed to be from the start...

A Mage v. Templar thread.

You know you love it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 janvier 2014 - 07:06 .

[dragonflight288]

Wow, this thread has gone forward a few pages, and nothing new has really been said. Ah well.

.....
.......

I don't care what every other gamer thinks in the grand scheme of things, but I know that when Inquisition comes out, if I'm given an opportunity to help the elves claim a land to call their own, I will. I will try to do it in the most humane way possible, but just like mages, I feel like the elves have suffered enough from the racism of human societies, whether they have their homes and businesses burned if they leave an alienage to being glorified slaves in Orlais and Tevinter, they don't deserve it. Even if half the posts about the supposed crimes that the Dalish may or may not commit are true, they are not guilty of any crimes now, beyond the Dalish being arrogant and self-righteous and the City Elves being despondent. Hardly worth the death sentence or genocide.

They don't deserve having their homes and businesses burned if they leave an alienage. They don't deserve purges, they are just as worthy for the guards to protect as humans are from rape an murder, and I'm not just talking about the City Elf origin but Act 1 in DA2, that crazy guy who believed himself to be possessed but actually wasn't kept getting let off because he was the magistrate's son as well as the fact that no one important really cared that it was elven daughters being taken and killed for being too beautiful.

[Mistress9Nine]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Unless you're implying that Templar should sit by and let their "ally" undermine them, kill them and assist mages because of some belief that she can do what she wants without consequence?

The templars acted against the Divine's will. She sent those mages to report on Pharamond's situation. We have no idea what her intention was with the info of Tranquility being undone. It was the knight commander who went behind the Divine's back and sent a templar band to kill everyone.

Now I'm not blaming anyone here. I think everyone was playing their own game of backroom politics and backstabbing. It is to be expected. The break away was a politically motivated and well manouvered act, it had nothing to do with a couple of templars being killed.

But to get back on subject with the Dalish, I assume much the same would happen if the Divine was stepping on someone's toes by arguing for elven equality. They'd just find an excuse for it not to apply to their oppressing of the elves. But it is still a step! Just because slavery was dissolved in the US didn't mean all people suddenly became equal, but such things are still important milestones on the way to equality.

[dragonflight288]

I don't get how this makes what the Divine did acceptable.

You mean publicly calling for humane treatment of mages is bad?

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't get how this makes what the Divine did acceptable.

You mean publicly calling for humane treatment of mages is bad?

I'm pretty sure they were referencing cold blooded murder.

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't get how this makes what the Divine did acceptable.

You mean publicly calling for humane treatment of mages is bad?

I'm pretty sure they were referencing cold blooded murder.

The Divine isn't guilty of that. Pharamond as a tranquil certainly sacrificed a lot of people in his attempts to find a cure for tranquility, but he did find it. It's not clear if his methods were approved by the Divine or not, but when he found a cure, the response of those who oppose giving mages more freedoms within the system first inclination is murder...i.e., Lambert ordering Evangeline to kill Pharamond and anyone who knew about it. 

I'm sure I'm not misremembering, but I don't thin the Divine is guilty of murder. 

[Mirrman70]

this has started getting off topic hasn't it?

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Divine isn't guilty of that. Pharamond as a tranquil certainly sacrificed a lot of people in his attempts to find a cure for tranquility, but he did find it. It's not clear if his methods were approved by the Divine or not, but when he found a cure, the response of those who oppose giving mages more freedoms within the system first inclination is murder...i.e., Lambert ordering Evangeline to kill Pharamond and anyone who knew about it. 

I'm sure I'm not misremembering, but I don't thin the Divine is guilty of murder. 

This murder.

Dave of Canada wrote...
The Divine decided to intervene with the Templar and called away their leadership and sent in her agents to kill the Templar guarding the mages and assist in their escape, showing her true colors to the Templar and prompting Lambert to null their partnership, as the Divine hadn't been holding her part of the bargain and killed members of the Templar Order.

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't care what every other gamer thinks in the grand scheme of things, but I know that when Inquisition comes out, if I'm given an opportunity to help the elves claim a land to call their own, I will. I will try to do it in the most humane way possible, but just like mages, I feel like the elves have suffered enough from the racism of human societies, whether they have their homes and businesses burned if they leave an alienage to being glorified slaves in Orlais and Tevinter, they don't deserve it. Even if half the posts about the supposed crimes that the Dalish may or may not commit are true, they are not guilty of any crimes now, beyond the Dalish being arrogant and self-righteous and the City Elves being despondent. Hardly worth the death sentence or genocide.

They don't deserve having their homes and businesses burned if they leave an alienage. They don't deserve purges, they are just as worthy for the guards to protect as humans are from rape an murder, and I'm not just talking about the City Elf origin but Act 1 in DA2, that crazy guy who believed himself to be possessed but actually wasn't kept getting let off because he was the magistrate's son as well as the fact that no one important really cared that it was elven daughters being taken and killed for being too beautiful.

I feel the same way. I suppose it resonates a lot with me because it's something I've thought about since my original run with my Surana Warden, and I've thought about a hypothetical Dalish protagonist for quite some time. If my Dalish Inquisitor can help the elves, he will.

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Divine isn't guilty of that. Pharamond as a tranquil certainly sacrificed a lot of people in his attempts to find a cure for tranquility, but he did find it. It's not clear if his methods were approved by the Divine or not, but when he found a cure, the response of those who oppose giving mages more freedoms within the system first inclination is murder...i.e., Lambert ordering Evangeline to kill Pharamond and anyone who knew about it. 

I'm sure I'm not misremembering, but I don't thin the Divine is guilty of murder. 

This murder.

Dave of Canada wrote...
The Divine decided to intervene with the Templar and called away their leadership and sent in her agents to kill the Templar guarding the mages and assist in their escape, showing her true colors to the Templar and prompting Lambert to null their partnership, as the Divine hadn't been holding her part of the bargain and killed members of the Templar Order.

So they accuse her of murder even though Lambert and the templars who captured and killed many of he mages at the conclave freely and openly disregarded her authority, and took matters into their own hands. 

From Asunder.

Fiona: You have no right to do this, we have the Divine's permission to gather.
Lambert: The Divine's authority no longer applies.

Well, those may not be the exact words, but the ones who started the killing and disobeying orders, and this is before Lambert and the Templars declared the Nevarran Accord to be void by the way, was Lambert and the templars. The mages had every right to gather, had permission from the Divine, and hadn't voted on a single issue.

And before anyone mentions that they were discusssing treason, I would like it to be noted that this is NOT the first time they discussed leaving the Chantry. It happened twice before, and both times Wynne was able to talk them down, and no one was killed those times.

She may have ordered those mages free, but those mages weren't guilty of any crimes tha many of them were exectued and imprisoned for.

[Mirrman70]

off topic...

[Fast Jimmy]

LobselVith8 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't care what every other gamer thinks in the grand scheme of things, but I know that when Inquisition comes out, if I'm given an opportunity to help the elves claim a land to call their own, I will. I will try to do it in the most humane way possible, but just like mages, I feel like the elves have suffered enough from the racism of human societies, whether they have their homes and businesses burned if they leave an alienage to being glorified slaves in Orlais and Tevinter, they don't deserve it. Even if half the posts about the supposed crimes that the Dalish may or may not commit are true, they are not guilty of any crimes now, beyond the Dalish being arrogant and self-righteous and the City Elves being despondent. Hardly worth the death sentence or genocide.

They don't deserve having their homes and businesses burned if they leave an alienage. They don't deserve purges, they are just as worthy for the guards to protect as humans are from rape an murder, and I'm not just talking about the City Elf origin but Act 1 in DA2, that crazy guy who believed himself to be possessed but actually wasn't kept getting let off because he was the magistrate's son as well as the fact that no one important really cared that it was elven daughters being taken and killed for being too beautiful.

I feel the same way. I suppose it resonates a lot with me because it's something I've thought about since my original run with my Surana Warden, and I've thought about a hypothetical Dalish protagonist for quite some time. If my Dalish Inquisitor can help the elves, he will.

And by helping them, you are dooming whatever residents that live in the area to being either brutally killed or made refugees. Why? Dalish racisim that says they can't live near humans.

Eliminate the racist belief in unfounded mythology, so that elves can migrate to an area without the need to scourge out its current inhabitants and I'm FINE with them having their own nation. And if they want to engage in politics with the other nations instead of clinging to their ethnic purity and they may even have a shot at keeping it for more generations than I can count on one hand.

But they won't. Because racist beliefs are intrinsic to Dalish culture. 

City Elves? I can get behind a nation for the City Elves. They won't treat the other nations like they have leprosy.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 23 janvier 2014 - 09:43 .

[Mirrman70]

I think we can all agree that the only non-racist group in thedas is the darkspawn. they hate everybody.

[LobselVith8]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I feel the same way. I suppose it resonates a lot with me because it's something I've thought about since my original run with my Surana Warden, and I've thought about a hypothetical Dalish protagonist for quite some time. If my Dalish Inquisitor can help the elves, he will.

And by helping them, you are dooming whatever residents that live in the area to being either brutally killed or made refugees. Why? Dalish racisim that says they can't live near humans.

As proven by the Dalish raising the historical Aveline, and a modern clan taking in Feynriel, eh?

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Eliminate the racist belief in unfounded mythology, so that elves can migrate to an area without the need to scourge out its current inhabitants and I'm FINE with them having their own nation. And if they want to engage in politics with the other nations instead of clinging to their ethnic purity and they may even have a shot at keeping it for more generations than I can count on one hand.

But they won't. Because racist beliefs are intrinsic to Dalish culture.  

There is nothing in Dalish lore that dictates that the elves have to topple the Dales from the Orlesian Empire, but since there seems to be an elven rebellion in the Dales already, I would rather aid it than help maintain another millennia of brutal oppression and servitude. I'm not in favor of the status quo, and I'm not going to support it when change is within arms reach.

You might think it's racist for the Dalish to believe their ancestors were immortal, but that didn't stop the People from interacting with non-elves. As for the Dales keeping out the neighboring templars and missionaries, I'm not surprised that they refused to acquiesce to conversion to the Andrastian Chantry.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

City Elves? I can get behind a nation for the City Elves. They won't treat the other nations like they have leprosy.

You clearly haven't played the City Elf Origin, then.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Divine isn't guilty of that. Pharamond as a tranquil certainly sacrificed a lot of people in his attempts to find a cure for tranquility, but he did find it. It's not clear if his methods were approved by the Divine or not, but when he found a cure, the response of those who oppose giving mages more freedoms within the system first inclination is murder...i.e., Lambert ordering Evangeline to kill Pharamond and anyone who knew about it. 

I'm sure I'm not misremembering, but I don't thin the Divine is guilty of murder. 

This murder.

Dave of Canada wrote...
The Divine decided to intervene with the Templar and called away their leadership and sent in her agents to kill the Templar guarding the mages and assist in their escape, showing her true colors to the Templar and prompting Lambert to null their partnership, as the Divine hadn't been holding her part of the bargain and killed members of the Templar Order.

So they accuse her of murder even though Lambert and the templars who captured and killed many of he mages at the conclave freely and openly disregarded her authority, and took matters into their own hands. 

From Asunder.

Fiona: You have no right to do this, we have the Divine's permission to gather.
Lambert: The Divine's authority no longer applies.

Well, those may not be the exact words, but the ones who started the killing and disobeying orders, and this is before Lambert and the Templars declared the Nevarran Accord to be void by the way, was Lambert and the templars. The mages had every right to gather, had permission from the Divine, and hadn't voted on a single issue.

And before anyone mentions that they were discusssing treason, I would like it to be noted that this is NOT the first time they discussed leaving the Chantry. It happened twice before, and both times Wynne was able to talk them down, and no one was killed those times.

She may have ordered those mages free, but those mages weren't guilty of any crimes tha many of them were exectued and imprisoned for.

They immediately went off topic and spoke of seperation from the Chantry, the very subject that caused the College of Cumberland to be closed, This Taboo subject prompted Lambert to rise as surely as the Murder but let's forget this eh?

And they had premission from the DIvine to gather and dicuss the Rite and NOTHING more. I'd say Fiona is more responble for what occured then Lambert who like most of the Novel merely reacted in this case. He didn't have a secret plot to scrub the meeting at the barest provocation, Murder and Treason are two things that aren't tolerated in Our world little lone DA's.

And thus when the Divine who was already overstepping her position in ordering the Templars to allow such a security risk in the first place was discovered in the plot to not only free the Mages, Murder the Templars but also allow the Mages a chance to rally and thus place the world in it's current state.

I really don't blame Lambert for anulling the accords; Would have done the same in his shoes.

[The Elder King]

I'm not a big fan of Lambert, but I agree that at that point the annulment of the Accords was necessary. The Chantry (or at least the divine) and the templars have reached a point where their stance of magic and mages were too different.
I want to point out that while Lambert didn't have a secret plan for the meeting, he had a secret plan for the mission the divine gave to Wynne, which I'm completely against it (Lambert's plan).
Still, I like him as a character. He's cunning, smart, charismastic and powerful. Gaider did a good job, as with the other characters in the book.

[Fast Jimmy]

LobselVith8 wrote...

As proven by the Dalish raising the historical Aveline, and a modern clan taking in Feynriel, eh?

Exceptions to the rule. I can do the same thing - Allistair or Anora, human rulers, can be persuaded to be an advocate for the Elves. Therefore, no humans will ever oppress elves in the future. Except that's not how the general populace behaves or operates.

There is nothing in Dalish lore that dictates that the elves have to topple the Dales from the Orlesian Empire, but since there seems to be an elven rebellion in the Dales already, I would rather aid it than help maintain another millennia of brutal oppression and servitude. I'm not in favor of the status quo, and I'm not going to support it when change is within arms reach.

You might think it's racist for the Dalish to believe their ancestors were immortal, but that didn't stop the People from interacting with non-elves.

Yes. Yes they did.

The kingdom of the Elves were isolationists who did not interact or reach out to other nations for the purposes of trade, diplomacy or general contact. When the reason behind said isolationistic behavior is solely based on the race of the other group, then that is the very definition of racist. 

This was true during the rise of the Tevinter Empire and again with the Dales. The Dalish tribes have shown no initiative that they will do anything different this time around.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

City Elves? I can get behind a nation for the City Elves. They won't treat the other nations like they have leprosy.

You clearly haven't played the City Elf Origin, then.

I have... and they accept humans in the Alienage all the time. Mostly because they have to, but, at the same time, I'd have higher hopes of them seeing the mutual benefits as well as long-term survivability of having allies. I'm not talking bending knee or converting to any religion... just being cordial. City Elves have been mostly broken of their harmful belief in the racist "pollution of humans" mindset, so they would have a better shot at building a nation that actually could be self-sustaining and viable. 

Giving a nation to the Dalish is what I would consider nothing more than a long-term plan to eradicate all Elvish culture entirely. After all, it will only be a matter of time before they tick off enough people that they will be invaded and conquered again, resulting in them all being subjugated again and not having any Dalish or other remnants to walk around spouting legends of racial purity like they were proven fact. So that maybe complete conquering, subjugation and then an attempt to make a nation a third time in about another millenia might be the course of action that works out best.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 janvier 2014 - 12:57 .

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

I'm not a big fan of Lambert, but I agree that at that point the annulment of the Accords was necessary. The Chantry (or at least the divine) and the templars have reached a point where their stance of magic and mages were too different.
I want to point out that while Lambert didn't have a secret plan for the meeting, he had a secret plan for the mission the divine gave to Wynne, which I'm completely against it (Lambert's plan).
Still, I like him as a character. He's cunning, smart, charismastic and powerful. Gaider did a good job, as with the other characters in the book.

I'm thinking Lambert's faction could be an issue for the Dalish, given their separation from the Andrastian Chantry. With Lambert MIA, I gave to wonder if they follow a new leader, or if they've broken up into smaller, differing factions under various leaders.