1258 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

So I keep seeing posts about how the Dalish need to play nice and kiss up to the humans to have a chance of moving forward....yet why should they be the only ones who have to do such a thing?Like it or not but human society is very racist against elves and expecting the Dalish to be the only ones to give up their 'racist' ways is going to backfire.If there's to be any co-existence between humans and elves then both sides need to give something up.

[TK514]

cjones91 wrote...

So I keep seeing posts about how the Dalish need to play nice and kiss up to the humans to have a chance of moving forward....yet why should they be the only ones who have to do such a thing?Like it or not but human society is very racist against elves and expecting the Dalish to be the only ones to give up their 'racist' ways is going to backfire.If there's to be any co-existence between humans and elves then both sides need to give something up.

Someone has has to take the first step.  It should probably be the ones on the verge of extinction.  Logic would suggest they have the most to lose by not acting.

[Master Warder Z_]

TK514 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

So I keep seeing posts about how the Dalish need to play nice and kiss up to the humans to have a chance of moving forward....yet why should they be the only ones who have to do such a thing?Like it or not but human society is very racist against elves and expecting the Dalish to be the only ones to give up their 'racist' ways is going to backfire.If there's to be any co-existence between humans and elves then both sides need to give something up.

Someone has has to take the first step.  It should probably be the ones on the verge of extinction.  Logic would suggest they have the most to lose by not acting.

Or they cannot swallow their pride and die out.

That would probably be for the best  

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm thinking Lambert's faction could be an issue for the Dalish, given their separation from the Andrastian Chantry. With Lambert MIA, I gave to wonder if they follow a new leader, or if they've broken up into smaller, differing factions under various leaders.

I certainly think that without Lambert there's the possibility of the templars being fractured in some way. That could likely be the reason behind the formation of the Red Templars.
As for the templars being a problem for the dalish, It depends. Their major focus is the mage rebellion, so I don't think that they're willing to open another military front. And in the case the dalish strikes an alliance with one side of the OCW, I don't think the templars would risk fighting them.
I think that the mage-templar war will be separated from the Orlesian Civil War, and since they're  likely involved in it, from the elves too.

[Fast Jimmy]

TK514 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

So I keep seeing posts about how the Dalish need to play nice and kiss up to the humans to have a chance of moving forward....yet why should they be the only ones who have to do such a thing?Like it or not but human society is very racist against elves and expecting the Dalish to be the only ones to give up their 'racist' ways is going to backfire.If there's to be any co-existence between humans and elves then both sides need to give something up.

Someone has has to take the first step.  It should probably be the ones on the verge of extinction.  Logic would suggest they have the most to lose by not acting.

Precisely. The Dalish lose everything by not attempting to build bridges instead of greeting people who visit them at arrow point. The humans lose nothing except nomadic squaters on their land.

In a world of rainbows and unicorns, everyone would strive for equality out of the goodness of their hearts, but in any realitstic setting, the people with the most to lose or the most to gain are usually the ones trying to bring everyone under one banner of peace.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 janvier 2014 - 01:06 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

So I keep seeing posts about how the Dalish need to play nice and kiss up to the humans to have a chance of moving forward....yet why should they be the only ones who have to do such a thing?Like it or not but human society is very racist against elves and expecting the Dalish to be the only ones to give up their 'racist' ways is going to backfire.If there's to be any co-existence between humans and elves then both sides need to give something up.

Because they are negotiating from a  posistion of no power at all? If the Dalish were holding all the cards, or at least some cards, then they could make the humans play nice to them aswell. Alas, that is not the case, hence why the Dalish has to play nice.

[DPSSOC]

cjones91 wrote...
And most humans have the same view yet I don't see people jumping down their throats whenever they use terms like 'knife ears'.It's always the Dalish for some reason.

Because nobody jumps up to defend human racism.  Nobody is claiming the treatment of City Elves is what they rightly deserve.  The Dalish are given a free pass by too many people simply because they're the underdogs.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Dalish CULTURE is what spreads racisms to its adherents.

I don't think this has been adequately established.  Dalish culture spreads the belief that humans caused the downfall of elves.  But I don't see how we can call that racist if we don't have some reason to think that this belief is false.

Dalish culture teaches that humans are diseased vermin who robbed the elves of their immortality while they are entirely perfect.  It teaches that it's only an atrocity if the humans do it.  Tamlen murders 3 men in cold blood, nobody takes issue with it.  Ilen tells the tale of how the Dalish bravely and honourably launched an unprovoked attack against an "inferior" human tribe.  Every offer of help from non-Dalish is rejected out of hand, because how could we hope to accomplish what they could not.

You're right nothing racist about all that.

ianvillan wrote...
A lot of people take the Chantry version of the past as fact and call the Dalish liars because one Elf did not like Humans when he told the story, excusing the Chantry who also did not like Elves but their word is accepted as gospel.

 
It's not the bias of the source it's the content.  The Chantry/Orlesian account of the history of the Dales is about 3 paragraphs.  It details the rise of tensions between the two nations and cites a particular incident as the kick off to the war.  It further details the Elves were decisively winning until they hit Val Royeaux at which point the Chantry called on the other nations for aid and began pushing them back and ultimately winning.

The Dalish account is 3 sentences basically amounting to, "We came to the Dales.  Humans are jerks.  We lost."

That is the issue with the Dalish account and why people give the Chantry account more credibility.

ianvillan wrote...
A lot of people actually blame the Elves for refusing to convert their beliefs to the Chantry when asked and say that they were wrong to leave Humans alone.

The point, missing it.  Nobody says the Elves should have converted.  What some people do say is that the hostile attitude of the Dalish, combined with a refusal of relations of any kind, was a major contributing factor to the increase in tensions between the two nations and the eventual war.

As for the Elves being wrong to leave humans alone I'm going to assume you're referring to Arlathan in which case yes it was wrong, because they took their eye off the bear.  When the Elves cut themselves off from humanity humans were organized into warring tribes, and they didn't think to keep an eye on them, that was stupid.  Had the Elves watched, not interacted with, humans they would have seen the rise of the Imperium coming, probably guessed at their eventual invasion, and taken steps to prevent or prepare for it, they did not, because they took their eyes off the bear.

ianvillan wrote...
The Chantry and the other nations from the Orlisan empire have shown their racism and hatred towards the Elves but because they won the war they are justified in it, Yet because the Dalish refuse to become slaves and refuse to convert their beliefs they are somehow in the wrong.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, begrudges the Dalish not wanting to follow the Chantry.  Many people, myself included, do begrudge the Dalish not attempting to coexist at all.

[Veruin]

DPSSOC wrote...
Because nobody jumps up to defend human racism.  Nobody is claiming the treatment of City Elves is what they rightly deserve.  The Dalish are given a free pass by too many people simply because they're the underdogs.
.

This doesn't just apply to Dalish.  It is too true in a lot of things.

[TK514]

I like what you've said, DPSSOC. It's a shame that it will be dismissed without cause, and someone will have to say it all over again in another couple of pages. At which point it will be dismissed without cause again.

Repeat every few pages of every thread on this subject.

Cue certain parties claiming everyone forgives human racism in this thread and that there are all these posts where human racism is endorsed.  Strangely, no quoted examples are ever provided.  One would think coming up with half a dozen or more would be easy in an almost fifty page thread, yet nary a one do we see.

Modifié par TK514, 24 janvier 2014 - 01:34 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm thinking Lambert's faction could be an issue for the Dalish, given their separation from the Andrastian Chantry. With Lambert MIA, I gave to wonder if they follow a new leader, or if they've broken up into smaller, differing factions under various leaders.

I certainly think that without Lambert there's the possibility of the templars being fractured in some way. That could likely be the reason behind the formation of the Red Templars.
As for the templars being a problem for the dalish, It depends. Their major focus is the mage rebellion, so I don't think that they're willing to open another military front. And in the case the dalish strikes an alliance with one side of the OCW, I don't think the templars would risk fighting them.
I think that the mage-templar war will be separated from the Orlesian Civil War, and since they're  likely involved in it, from the elves too.

Yeah I think if the Templars rebelled against the Divine specifically to fight mages, then they most likley aren't going to undermine their own efforts to do that by wasting effort in tackling something else as well. Whatever their historical emnity, hunting Dalish is not the templar's primary mandate or purpose.

I also agree that the templar factions could splinter further in Lambert's absense. I actually hope it's true and that we'll run into several different types of templar factions.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 janvier 2014 - 01:33 .

[The Elder King]

@Jedi Master of Orion: I agree, though I'll be fine if the RT don't rapresent the whole Templar Order.

[Mirrman70]

Mods should take notice of the fact that a thread about elves is starting to talk about mages...

[LobselVith8]

cjones91 wrote...

So I keep seeing posts about how the Dalish need to play nice and kiss up to the humans to have a chance of moving forward....yet why should they be the only ones who have to do such a thing?Like it or not but human society is very racist against elves and expecting the Dalish to be the only ones to give up their 'racist' ways is going to backfire.If there's to be any co-existence between humans and elves then both sides need to give something up.

Because some people think the elves should be the only ones who should give anything in the name of compromise or peace. I'm not certain why some people ignore the logical issue of Andrastian kingdoms and templars taking issue with Dalish clans, with the dehumanizations of elves, or the fact that simply being Dalish is a crime because their religious beliefs in the Creators alone make them criminals. Mages aren't permitted outside the Circle; Andrastians see non-Andrastians as heathens. I'm not certain what the point is in vilifying the Dalish for surviving in this harsh reality where lynch mobs kill innocent people in the Andrastian kingdoms for incredibly asinine reasons.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm thinking Lambert's faction could be an issue for the Dalish, given their separation from the Andrastian Chantry. With Lambert MIA, I gave to wonder if they follow a new leader, or if they've broken up into smaller, differing factions under various leaders.

I certainly think that without Lambert there's the possibility of the templars being fractured in some way. That could likely be the reason behind the formation of the Red Templars.
As for the templars being a problem for the dalish, It depends. Their major focus is the mage rebellion, so I don't think that they're willing to open another military front. And in the case the dalish strikes an alliance with one side of the OCW, I don't think the templars would risk fighting them.
I think that the mage-templar war will be separated from the Orlesian Civil War, and since they're  likely involved in it, from the elves too.

Yeah I think if the Templars rebelled against the Divine specifically to fight mages, then they most likley aren't going to undermine their own efforts to do that by wasting effort in tackling something else as well. Whatever their historical emnity, hunting Dalish is not the templar's primary mandate or purpose.

I also agree that the templar factions could splinter further in Lambert's absense. I actually hope it's true and that we'll run into several different types of templar factions.

Actually templars already hunt Dalish as it's pretty common knowledge that they're led by mages, and they hunt the Keepers, whom the Dalish fight to protect.

Hunting Dalish and hunting mages who left the Circle's may be one and the same to many templars. 

[Heimdall]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Actually templars already hunt Dalish as it's pretty common knowledge that they're led by mages, and they hunt the Keepers, whom the Dalish fight to protect.

Hunting Dalish and hunting mages who left the Circle's may be one and the same to many templars. 

Perhaps, but there're only one, two, perhaps three at the most mages in a clan of Dalish.  Meanwhile there are hundreds or thousands of mages loose in the world now.  I think most Templars would put the Dalish on a lower priority unless the elves decide to involve themselves.

[dragonflight288]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Actually templars already hunt Dalish as it's pretty common knowledge that they're led by mages, and they hunt the Keepers, whom the Dalish fight to protect.

Hunting Dalish and hunting mages who left the Circle's may be one and the same to many templars. 

Perhaps, but there're only one, two, perhaps three at the most mages in a clan of Dalish.  Meanwhile there are hundreds or thousands of mages loose in the world now.  I think most Templars would put the Dalish on a lower priority unless the elves decide to involve themselves.

Perhaps, but I'm pretty sure there aren't that many mages. 

I don't think there are that many mages outside of Tevinter as mages are supposed to be a minority anyway, people being born with the talent being relatively rare. 

EDIT: And a Circle may house dozens to a few hundred mages across an entire country, as all the mages in that country are rounded up and housed in a single location, compared to thousands of non-mages. 

I may very well be wrong but I don't think there are more than 3,000 mages overall outside of Tevinter. Again, I could easily be wrong but the lore makes it pretty clear that mages are relatively rare. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 24 janvier 2014 - 05:09 .

[Mirrman70]

I will kill all who oppose me Dalish or Andrastian.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because some people think the elves should be the only ones who should give anything in the name of compromise or peace. I'm not certain why some people ignore the logical issue of Andrastian kingdoms and templars taking issue with Dalish clans, with the dehumanizations of elves, or the fact that simply being Dalish is a crime because their religious beliefs in the Creators alone make them criminals. Mages aren't permitted outside the Circle; Andrastians see non-Andrastians as heathens. I'm not certain what the point is in vilifying the Dalish for surviving in this harsh reality where lynch mobs kill innocent people in the Andrastian kingdoms for incredibly asinine reasons.

Only in your head are people "ignoring" this because they disagree with you.

If the elves want to be the majoritarian population of a multicultural state that included Andrastian CEs, Andrastian humans, and Dalish elves, all of whom were governed in the democtratic nature of the Dalish themselves (with each group electing a "Keeper" as a leader and having a council of respected "Elders") then no one would object. It would egalitarian, and everyone would be entitled to their own culture and voice. Edit: Well, some would object. But they would be pro-genocide loons, and we don't have to take them seriously. They'd even out themselves as such by objecting. 

What we are villifying is the objectively racist solution that the Dalish want, which is their racially pure utopia where all humans are excluded, all elves are forcibly converted to their culture and way of life (sorry, "restored" to being "properly" elven) and then all contact with every other nation is cut-off. 

Oh, and before that, we either ethnically cleanse an area of humans because it was historically inhabited by elves or we take advantage of a war clearing out many as refugees to take their homes and, went that war is over, use violence and killing to keep them away from their original homes. 

Edit:

Human society in Thedas is prima facie objectionable. There's no denying this. That does not mean humans are entitled to create a morally objectionable society in response. 

Modifié par In Exile, 24 janvier 2014 - 06:00 .

[In Exile]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Templar are not part of the Chantry, they're allied with them. By being allies, they've co-operated with the Chantry in the creation of the Circle of Magi, an institution which was to be the duty of the Templar while the Chantry played the supplier role for both orders.

To analogize to this thread, saying that the Templars aren't part of the Chantry is like saying the Dales belong to the elves - it's taking advantage of an ancient historical fact that in no way describes modern reality to advance an agenda. The templars are using their historical agreement as a basis to exit the Chantry because of the differences between them. Just like the Dalish say they have an entitlement to the land because they were there fourth and the current humans were there fifth.

[Mirrman70]

that wasn't a real compromise. a real compromise would involve them living together, neither has to give up their faith, laws are made to promise the equal rights of both parties and then a multiracial, multifaith police force is made to enforce the terms of the compromise as well as to maintain the peace. this would rely on the good intentions of both sides and if either of the sides were to not fully commit it would be doomed from the start. that being said the best outcome would only come from humans no longer forcing others into their way of life and for the elves to forgive (not forget) the actions of the past generations of humans and to come to terms with the fact that the sins of the father should not dirty the hands of the son. their immortality is most likely not gonna come back so they should just accept the need for coexistence. Humans should accept that their way of life might not be suitable for everyone.

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
The city elves compromised like good little minorities, and look how far that's gotten them after seven centuries. I love city elves to pieces and actually believe their compromise was necessary because I doubt humans would allow an entire nation of elves to escape into the wild, but there it is. When you examine how city elves live versus how humans live versus how Dalish live, I can't say I really blame the Dalish for not wanting to "compromise" and end up just like them.

It's not fair to say what the CEs did was compromise. It was a choice between (basically) slavery, genocide or destitute exile (at least, at the time), and they chose slavery. Blaming them for it - or holding them in low regard, as if it's somehow more inherently noble to choose destitute and poor on principle - is bad. But that's not where I'm going with this.

Saying that the solution for the elves to have a function and non-racist state that incorporates actual compromise is not the same as saying that human abuse of the CEs is justified, or anything other than abuse. 

Modifié par In Exile, 24 janvier 2014 - 06:01 .

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because some people think the elves should be the only ones who should give anything in the name of compromise or peace. 
I'm not certain why some people ignore the logical issue of Andrastian kingdoms and templars taking issue with Dalish clans, with the dehumanizations of elves, or the fact that simply being Dalish is a crime because their religious beliefs in the Creators alone make them criminals.
Mages aren't permitted outside the Circle; Andrastians see non-Andrastians as heathens.

I'm not certain what the point is in vilifying the Dalish for surviving in this harsh reality where lynch mobs kill innocent people in the Andrastian kingdoms for incredibly asinine reasons.

The dalish persevering in this enviroment is not a cause to villify them. It's actually quite admirable. If there's one thing the dalish are, it is tenacious and dedicated.

The problem with the dalish are instead their superiority. Particularly towards their city elven cousins. Pol, Aneirin and Feynriel are all welcomed with welcome arms because "they're returning to the fold".
But the Dalish are positively nasty towards any elf that isn't, as city elf wardens can attest.

The lore of the dalish is also filled with references to humanity as vermins or enemies that it is a prime ground for hate ideologies. It's not inherently hateful, but pretty damn close.

Dalish lore also seem to skim over details that does not paint the Dalish in a positive light. Nowhere is it mentioned what exactly happened during the Dalish-Orlesian war/Second exalted March. Siege of Val Royeux? not mentioned. 10 years of fighting? Not mentioned. Montsimmard? Red Crossing? No mention thereof.
It does not really contradict the Chantry version because it really only addresses that the Dalish lost.
Sarel admits that the elves were probably not blameless, but waves it off as irrelevant.

And while all of this is understandable. Who wouldn't be bitter after having suffered their fate after all? It's not exactly a path towards a bright and happy future.

Worst of all is... if these elements persists and are not actively opposed. Then if the Dalish do get their homeland, then sooner or later they will go to war with their human neighbours again. Because as intolerant huamnity may or may not be, the dalish culture does not motivate seeking peace.

As admirable it is for the Dalish not to have relented. Their culture is as much holding them down as it is a sign of their strength.

Modifié par Sir JK, 24 janvier 2014 - 09:59 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Actually templars already hunt Dalish as it's pretty common knowledge that they're led by mages, and they hunt the Keepers, whom the Dalish fight to protect.

Hunting Dalish and hunting mages who left the Circle's may be one and the same to many templars. 

They tend to not pursue the clans if they stay away from human settlments. It's a matter of sheer practicality. Dalish Keepers are technically violating Chantry laws about apostates( and always have been) but the templars are well aware that their entire clans would fight to the death to protect them so they know there would be no point in hunting them down and actively looking for trouble when the Dalish are likely to just move on anyway.

That was the case before the Mage Rebellion would be especially true now. Their goal is to put and end to the Circle Mage revolution. Dalish Keepers aren't part of it.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 janvier 2014 - 10:08 .

[ianvillan]

Master Warder Z wrote...


They immediately went off topic and spoke of seperation from the Chantry, the very subject that caused the College of Cumberland to be closed, This Taboo subject prompted Lambert to rise as surely as the Murder but let's forget this eh?

And they had premission from the DIvine to gather and dicuss the Rite and NOTHING more. I'd say Fiona is more responble for what occured then Lambert who like most of the Novel merely reacted in this case. He didn't have a secret plot to scrub the meeting at the barest provocation, Murder and Treason are two things that aren't tolerated in Our world little lone DA's.

And thus when the Divine who was already overstepping her position in ordering the Templars to allow such a security risk in the first place was discovered in the plot to not only free the Mages, Murder the Templars but also allow the Mages a chance to rally and thus place the world in it's current state.

I really don't blame Lambert for anulling the accords; Would have done the same in his shoes.

The Mages voluntarily joined the circles when they were created and made an agreement with the Chantry of what that would entail and what rights they would have.

After centuries of the rights being stripped from them and constant abuses and murders by the Templars who were meant to follow the agreement the mages agreed to the mages felt that the old accords had changed and they started to discuss if they should leave the circles.

If the Templars can break the accords that they agreed to, then the Mages have the same right as well. Yet all the mages did was discuss leaving the circles which after centuries of change they no longer felt that the circles were what they had agreed to in the first place.

I don't blame the mages for discussing leaving the circles, and the Templars just showed their true colours with how they acted over it. I would of done the same in the mages shoes.