1258 réponses à ce sujet

[ianvillan]

Sir JK wrote...

The dalish persevering in this enviroment is not a cause to villify them. It's actually quite admirable. If there's one thing the dalish are, it is tenacious and dedicated.

The problem with the dalish are instead their superiority. Particularly towards their city elven cousins. Pol, Aneirin and Feynriel are all welcomed with welcome arms because "they're returning to the fold".
But the Dalish are positively nasty towards any elf that isn't, as city elf wardens can attest.

The lore of the dalish is also filled with references to humanity as vermins or enemies that it is a prime ground for hate ideologies. It's not inherently hateful, but pretty damn close.

Dalish lore also seem to skim over details that does not paint the Dalish in a positive light. Nowhere is it mentioned what exactly happened during the Dalish-Orlesian war/Second exalted March. Siege of Val Royeux? not mentioned. 10 years of fighting? Not mentioned. Montsimmard? Red Crossing? No mention thereof.
It does not really contradict the Chantry version because it really only addresses that the Dalish lost.
Sarel admits that the elves were probably not blameless, but waves it off as irrelevant.

And while all of this is understandable. Who wouldn't be bitter after having suffered their fate after all? It's not exactly a path towards a bright and happy future.

Worst of all is... if these elements persists and are not actively opposed. Then if the Dalish do get their homeland, then sooner or later they will go to war with their human neighbours again. Because as intolerant huamnity may or may not be, the dalish culture does not motivate seeking peace.

As admirable it is for the Dalish not to have relented. Their culture is as much holding them down as it is a sign of their strength.

Which is more than the Chantry and Orlais do, they believe they are totally blameless and it was the blood magic, people sacrificing, Heathen Elves who refused their peaceful armed Templars entry into their nation that were to blame.

maybe a reason the Dalish don't mention the details of what happened in the war was because the Chantry went out of their way to destroy all Elven culture and History.

You say that if they do get a homeland that they would go back to war because of their intolerance, yet the Elves in the Dales might not of liked the Humans but they wanted to be left alone and have nothing to do with the Humans, it was the Human intolerance that could not accept the Elves and their beliefs and would not leave them alone.

It was the Humans that kept forcing the issue with the Elves and would not leave them alone, so if the Elves get a new homeland a new war could start because of intolerance but it would be the Human intolerance that starts it again.

Modifié par ianvillan, 24 janvier 2014 - 11:16 .

[Jaison1986]

ianvillan wrote...
Which is more than the Chantry and Orlais do, they believe they are totally blameless and it was the blood magic, people sacrificing, Heathen Elves who refused their peaceful armed Templars entry into their nation that were to blame.

maybe a reason the Dalish don't mention the details of what happened in the war was because the Chantry went out of their way to destroy all Elven culture and History.

You say that if they do get a homeland that they would go back to war because of their intolerance, yet the Elves in the Dales might not of liked the Humans but they wanted to be left alone and have nothing to do with the Humans, it was the Human intolerance that could not accept the Elves and their beliefs and would not leave them alone.

It was the Humans that kept forcing the issue with the Elves and would not leave them alone, so if the Elves get a new homeland a new war could start because of intolerance but it would be the Human intolerance that starts it again.

I think it's somewhat both their fault. It's known that the elves of the dales refused to help Orlais and other nations against the blight because it was not their problem. That seem to have caused a lot of bitterness once the blight ended. Couple that with tension caused by the fact that each country did not approved of their religious beliefs. It is said that the dales started to attack human settlements in the border with Orlais, though, it's unknown if they did it without provocation, or because humans were moving to territory that didn't belonged to them. 

One thing I know however: Orlesians are grade A cowards. They only like fighting against enemies weaker then them, and beg for help once they can't win their own fights, since they were about to lose against the elves when they called an exalted march.

[The Elder King]

@Jaison1986: World of Thedas stated that in the Exalted March against the Dales only the Orlesians partecipated. So in the end Orlais fought on his own against the elves.

Modifié par hhh89, 24 janvier 2014 - 01:34 .

[Sir JK]

ianvillan wrote...

Which is more than the Chantry and Orlais do, they believe they are totally blameless and it was the blood magic, people sacrificing, Heathen Elves who refused their peaceful armed Templars entry into their nation that were to blame.

Problem is... the only account we have of the Chantry side is in codex entries. We haven't been able to discuss it with anyone.

And templars are only mentioned in the Dalish account.

And while you're right... The Orlesian version is not terribly detailed on causes either, it does comparatively give a rather poor account of their war effort. Describing it's armies as overconfident, mentioning losses such as Montsimmard, it's failure to protect Val Royeux and so forth. The Orlesian tale is not one of heroism.

But yes... it's not really any less biased. I'll admit that. I'd love to question it as well. The only reason I really give it slightly more credence than the elven one is that it's considerably more detailed. The Orlesian version tells us more about what kind of war it was. It even mentions some elves, like Rajmael.
Also, amusingly, even Orlesian and Chantry historians consider the rumours of human sacrefice to be rather unreliable.

I expect the true account is neither one. They both contain kernels of it, but both are biased and contain some falsehoods.

maybe a reason the Dalish don't mention the details of what happened in the war was because the Chantry went out of their way to destroy all Elven culture and History.

Sure. That probably accounts for why we lack lore about normal life. But what about the war itself. Heroes? Martyrs? Successes? Given that the Dalish beat back the Orlesians to Val Royeux, you'd think they won some victories to brag about.

You say that if they do get a homeland that they would go back to war because of their intolerance, yet the Elves in the Dales might not of liked the Humans but they wanted to be left alone and have nothing to do with the Humans, it was the Human intolerance that could not accept the Elves and their beliefs and would not leave them alone.

It was the Humans that kept forcing the issue with the Elves and would not leave them alone, so if the Elves get a new homeland a new war could start because of intolerance but it would be the Human intolerance that starts it again.

And humans will force the issue again. The Dalish will always be able to make enemies. Particularly if they refuse missionaries. Injure hunters, travellers and merchants. Never negotiate. Humand and elven lands encroach on one another.

Intolerance and hate requires absolutely nothing to corrupt things. Friendship, alliances and tolerance require work. Therein lie the problem with the Dalish culture. They'll never make human friends, but making enemies... both sides will show a natural talent for it.

[Jaison1986]

hhh89 wrote...

@Jaison1986: World of Thedas stated that in the Exalted March against the Dales only the Orlesians partecipated. So in the end Orlais fought on his own against the elves.

I'm sorry, I don't own an copy so I didn't knew. Though that's really odd. Why bother calling an exalted march if only your country gets involved in the fight?

Edit: Actually, there is this passage in the wiki saying other nation indeed helped the Orlesians:

"Originally, only the Orlesian Empire went to battle, and the elves from the Dales responded with a fury that the Empire couldn't deal with. The elves made serious gains, even sacking the Orlesian capital of Val Royeaux until the other Andrastian nations joined the March. An elven general named Rajmael is known who died in the Forlorn Falls."

Modifié par Jaison1986, 24 janvier 2014 - 01:48 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jaison1986 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Jaison1986: World of Thedas stated that in the Exalted March against the Dales only the Orlesians partecipated. So in the end Orlais fought on his own against the elves.

I'm sorry, I don't own an copy so I didn't knew. Though that's really odd. Why bother calling an exalted march if only your country gets involved in the fight?

Religious fervor would probably boost morale of the army, and a whole lot more people would volunteer to the army. Volunteers make for far better motivated soldiers than conscripted peasants.

[The Elder King]

Jaison1986: that part of the wiki is from DAO, from the Veshialle's description. WoT evidently changed the events.

[dragonflight288]

I'm sorry, I don't own an copy so I didn't knew. Though that's really odd. Why bother calling an exalted march if only your country gets involved in the fight?

because the Chantry has an army in its own right. Up until that point, how many hundreds or thousands of templars in Orlais, in addition to the mages the chantry often use in their wars, were not fighting. It was strictly Orlesian military until they were losing.

[In Exile]

ianvillan wrote...
Which is more than the Chantry and Orlais do, they believe they are totally blameless and it was the blood magic, people sacrificing, Heathen Elves who refused their peaceful armed Templars entry into their nation that were to blame.

That's false. The historical accounts agree it was aggressive expansionism that motivated the conflict, and outright dismiss the notion that elves were doing anything "evil" as war propaganda. 

maybe a reason the Dalish don't mention the details of what happened in the war was because the Chantry went out of their way to destroy all Elven culture and History.

Sacking Montsimard would be in living memory, i.e., the people who were there would remember it happening. 

You say that if they do get a homeland that they would go back to war because of their intolerance, yet the Elves in the Dales might not of liked the Humans but they wanted to be left alone and have nothing to do with the Humans, it was the Human intolerance that could not accept the Elves and their beliefs and would not leave them alone.

That's not what happened last time. A lot of the source of tension between the two countries was, in part, due to hostility on the part of the elves. Even people who defend the elves (e.g. Lob) do so by arguing that this hostility is justified, not that they didn't engage in it. 

It was the Humans that kept forcing the issue with the Elves and would not leave them alone, so if the Elves get a new homeland a new war could start because of intolerance but it would be the Human intolerance that starts it again.

Whether or not Orlais invaded, the Dalish spent a year making war in Orlais, klling people and sacking cities. That's not being "isolated". It'd be one thing if they repelled an invasion. But they didn't. They invaded themselves. 

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
because the Chantry has an army in its own right. Up until that point, how many hundreds or thousands of templars in Orlais, in addition to the mages the chantry often use in their wars, were not fighting. It was strictly Orlesian military until they were losing.

Consider also the mages. If they Chantry declares an Exalted March, they might be willing to unleash some mages against the Dalish, which were probably solely needed since the Dales wouldn't refraim from using their most powerful mages to level the Orlesian armies (cf. like what all of Thedas did to the Qunari, minus technological superiority). 

[dragonflight288]

Whether or not Orlais invaded, the Dalish spent a year making war in Orlais, klling people and sacking cities. That's not being "isolated". It'd be one thing if they repelled an invasion. But they didn't. They invaded themselves.

Technically we don't know that it was the Dalish as the codex entries only say that it was elves attacking. For all we know, it could've been a band of city elf bandits, or heck (and this is a stretch) it could be quite similar to the events in Kindom Under Fire: Crusaders and Heroes.

In that Crusaders, which came out first, General Gerald is out patrolling and comes across a city that looks like it's been destroyed by dark elves, and they lay all the blame on the dark elves because they happened to come across a dark elf patrol in the area. But in Heroes when playing as Sir Walter, you actually discover that it was the church's own forces that completely and utterly destroyed the town, down to the last man, woman and child and made it look like Dark Elves as a way to incite a war so they could have an excuse to invade the Holy Land and take it back.

I'm not saying that's what actually happened, but I am saying those elven raids back then are surprisingly scarce on details other than the fact that it was elves. That doesn't mean it was Dalish elves.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 24 janvier 2014 - 03:05 .

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
because the Chantry has an army in its own right. Up until that point, how many hundreds or thousands of templars in Orlais, in addition to the mages the chantry often use in their wars, were not fighting. It was strictly Orlesian military until they were losing.

Consider also the mages. If they Chantry declares an Exalted March, they might be willing to unleash some mages against the Dalish, which were probably solely needed since the Dales wouldn't refraim from using their most powerful mages to level the Orlesian armies (cf. like what all of Thedas did to the Qunari, minus technological superiority). 

Also true, as the Orlesian army wouldn't have had mages in it, unless they were apostates, as all mages were under the purview of the Chantry at this time. 

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Technically we don't know that it was the Dalish as the codex entries only say that it was elves attacking. For all we know, it could've been a band of city elf bandits, or heck (and this is a stretch) it could be quite similar to the events in Kindom Under Fire: Crusaders and Heroes.

I get what you're trying to say, but technically City Elves didn't exist yet.

And I doubt bandits were sacking major cities.

[Jaison1986]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Technically we don't know that it was the Dalish as the codex entries only say that it was elves attacking. For all we know, it could've been a band of city elf bandits, or heck (and this is a stretch) it could be quite similar to the events in Kindom Under Fire: Crusaders and Heroes.

I get what you're trying to say, but technically City Elves didn't exist yet.

And I doubt bandits were sacking major cities.

We also don't know if the elves did that out of malice or were provoked into attacking. Like with Zathrian. A handful of villagers murdered his children, wich caused him to slaughter almost everyone in the town. The typical "actions of a few comdemned them all".

Modifié par Jaison1986, 24 janvier 2014 - 03:13 .

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Technically we don't know that it was the Dalish as the codex entries only say that it was elves attacking. For all we know, it could've been a band of city elf bandits, or heck (and this is a stretch) it could be quite similar to the events in Kindom Under Fire: Crusaders and Heroes.

I get what you're trying to say, but technically City Elves didn't exist yet.

And I doubt bandits were sacking major cities.

Oh sure City Elves existed. They just weren't forced to live in alienages yet. Think of the codex entry "The Long March," where the elves were just granted a homeland by the followers of Andraste for their part in aiding her, and how they had to travel hundreds, maybe thousands of miles. Many elves simply gave up on the way, settled down right there on the road, went to other places or returned to Tevinter.

The Dales wasn't the only place elves lived and that codex alone proves it. 

[dragonflight288]

Jaison1986 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Technically we don't know that it was the Dalish as the codex entries only say that it was elves attacking. For all we know, it could've been a band of city elf bandits, or heck (and this is a stretch) it could be quite similar to the events in Kindom Under Fire: Crusaders and Heroes.

I get what you're trying to say, but technically City Elves didn't exist yet.

And I doubt bandits were sacking major cities.

We also don't know if the elves did that out of malice or were provoked into attacking. Like with Zathrian. A handful of villagers murdered his children, wich caused him to slaughter almost everyone in the town. The typical "actions of a few comdemned them all".

I thought it was a group of bandits that he wiped out, personally, and Witherfang and the new werewolves did their own thing to the town and Zathrian simply didn't care as he felt they all deserved to feel his pain, and this vendetta lasted for centuries. 

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Technically we don't know that it was the Dalish as the codex entries only say that it was elves attacking. For all we know, it could've been a band of city elf bandits, or heck (and this is a stretch) it could be quite similar to the events in Kindom Under Fire: Crusaders and Heroes.

It can't be city elves. They didn't exist. [Edit: And it couldn't have been these isolated bands of elves from apparently all across Thedas, for the reasons that follow]. And this was such a large scale effor that cities were sacked. To defeat an entire country's army in the field, and then sack their city requires massive numbers, siege equipment, and logistics on a scale that's impossible for anything but another country. 

Medieval engagements weren't as huge as wars in anqituity because of limits on logistics and supplies, but it was still impossible for a brigands to field armies and sack half of a country. 

I'm not saying that's what actually happened, but I am saying those elven raids back then are surprisingly scarce on details other than the fact that it was elves. That doesn't mean it was Dalish elves.

You are sugesting that this actually happened. Your entire conclusion is based on the possibility some third party - or Orlais itself - actually sacked 1/2 of its kingdom to somehow justify a war against a people everyone in their country already hated and only they participated in. 

Modifié par In Exile, 24 janvier 2014 - 03:22 .

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I thought it was a group of bandits that he wiped out, personally, and Witherfang and the new werewolves did their own thing to the town and Zathrian simply didn't care as he felt they all deserved to feel his pain, and this vendetta lasted for centuries. 

That's plain false. Zathrian created the curse: he had to, that's how he was (a) immortal and ( Witherfang existed. It's also why he refused to end the curse: to punish the descendants of those people. 

This is just (pardon the expression) white-washing the crime. 

[dragonflight288]

It can't be city elves. They didn't exist.

You mean the elves who abandoned the Long March and lived outside the Dales do not exist, even if they weren't forced to live in alienages?

Modifié par dragonflight288, 24 janvier 2014 - 03:22 .

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
You mean the elves who abandoned the Long March and lived outside the Dales do not exist, even if they weren't forced to live in alienages?

Whatever you want to call those elves, calling them "city" elves is wrong. That's a distinct cultural group borne of the crimes against humanity Orlais committed. And it can't be them ,for reasons I already addresed re: logistics. 

It's also impossible based on the geographic of the conflict unless the massive army passed through the Dales and kept their supply lines there. 

Modifié par In Exile, 24 janvier 2014 - 03:23 .

[Jaison1986]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Technically we don't know that it was the Dalish as the codex entries only say that it was elves attacking. For all we know, it could've been a band of city elf bandits, or heck (and this is a stretch) it could be quite similar to the events in Kindom Under Fire: Crusaders and Heroes.

I get what you're trying to say, but technically City Elves didn't exist yet.

And I doubt bandits were sacking major cities.

We also don't know if the elves did that out of malice or were provoked into attacking. Like with Zathrian. A handful of villagers murdered his children, wich caused him to slaughter almost everyone in the town. The typical "actions of a few comdemned them all".

I thought it was a group of bandits that he wiped out, personally, and Witherfang and the new werewolves did their own thing to the town and Zathrian simply didn't care as he felt they all deserved to feel his pain, and this vendetta lasted for centuries. 

No, he killed bandits when he saved Lanaya, remember? His two children were attacked by some man from an village that was near their camp. Zathrian sent whiterfang to kill them in retribuition. Most of the villagers were slaughtered, and the few that survived were turned into werewolves, spreading the curse from there.

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
I thought it was a group of bandits that he wiped out, personally, and Witherfang and the new werewolves did their own thing to the town and Zathrian simply didn't care as he felt they all deserved to feel his pain, and this vendetta lasted for centuries. 

That's plain false. Zathrian created the curse: he had to, that's how he was (a) immortal and ( Witherfang existed. It's also why he refused to end the curse: to punish the descendants of those people. 

This is just (pardon the expression) white-washing the crime. 

Fair enough. Zathrian is guilty of a truly horrible crime. In response to another horrible crime, and his resonse was completely overblown. 

I don't think anyone debates that. I was just confused as to the whole series of events since it's been awhile since I had even thought about that quest line in Origins. 

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It can't be city elves. They didn't exist.

You mean the elves who abandoned the Long March and lived outside the Dales do not exist, even if they weren't forced to live in alienages?

No.  They mean City Elves did not exist.  City Elf refers to a specific population in the DA setting, and it is not the same as 'elf that didn't live in the Dales'.

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

It can't be city elves. They didn't exist.

You mean the elves who abandoned the Long March and lived outside the Dales do not exist, even if they weren't forced to live in alienages?

No.  They mean City Elves did not exist.  City Elf refers to a specific population in the DA setting, and it is not the same as 'elf that didn't live in the Dales'.

Okay, so no city elves, but elves who live in the cities and human socieites then. 

[dragonflight288]

Double Post:

I'm not saying that definitively that elves other than the Dalish were raiders, but we know from the codex entry "the Long March" that there were many elves who weren't in the Dales at all, and so long as there are other groups of elves, not just the Dalish, the possibility cannot be discounted that it was another group entirely that were the raiders.

It could've been elves who simply blamed humans for their problems like Zathrian or Velanna, it could've been elves who were a splinter group of the Dales themselves who wanted a war, or it could've been elves outside the Dales entirely.