1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

That's an entirely possible guess Dragonflight. The enterprises of individuals have on occassion led to war. If indeed the elves ahd been throwing out missionaries previously that could very well lead to the local Orlesians thinking it was ordered by the elves and cue a rapid escalation into war.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Okay, so no city elves, but elves who live in the cities and human socieites then. 

Kind of disappointed in you.  

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because some people think the elves should be the only ones who should give anything in the name of compromise or peace. I'm not certain why some people ignore the logical issue of Andrastian kingdoms and templars taking issue with Dalish clans, with the dehumanizations of elves, or the fact that simply being Dalish is a crime because their religious beliefs in the Creators alone make them criminals. Mages aren't permitted outside the Circle; Andrastians see non-Andrastians as heathens. I'm not certain what the point is in vilifying the Dalish for surviving in this harsh reality where lynch mobs kill innocent people in the Andrastian kingdoms for incredibly asinine reasons.

Only in your head are people "ignoring" this because they disagree with you.

If the elves want to be the majoritarian population of a multicultural state that included Andrastian CEs, Andrastian humans, and Dalish elves, all of whom were governed in the democtratic nature of the Dalish themselves (with each group electing a "Keeper" as a leader and having a council of respected "Elders") then no one would object. It would egalitarian, and everyone would be entitled to their own culture and voice. Edit: Well, some would object. But they would be pro-genocide loons, and we don't have to take them seriously. They'd even out themselves as such by objecting.

Inquisition might shed light on what the Dalish clans could want from a hypothetical elven kingdom, if the Arlathvenn is taking place in the Dales (amidst the elven rebellion).

In Exile wrote...

What we are villifying is the objectively racist solution that the Dalish want, which is their racially pure utopia where all humans are excluded, all elves are forcibly converted to their culture and way of life (sorry, "restored" to being "properly" elven) and then all contact with every other nation is cut-off.

The Dalish don't force anyone to convert; you can voluntarily join them if you wish, or even leave them, as Velanna and Merrill proved.

Also, with Andrastian lynch mobs killing mages for absurd reasons and the hostility towards non-Andrastians, as well as the templar issue, you seem to be singling out the Dalish for wanting a kingdom where they would be their own masters, rather than being subservient to humans or outright killed. Or condemning the Dalish for wanting to teach their city counterparts about their history in a new elven kingdom.

In Exile wrote...

Oh, and before that, we either ethnically cleanse an area of humans because it was historically inhabited by elves or we take advantage of a war clearing out many as refugees to take their homes and, went that war is over, use violence and killing to keep them away from their original homes.

I'm in favor of the elves having their own homeland, but I don't think innocent people need to die to make it happen. If humans lose homes in the Dales so that elves have the only sanctuary in Thedas where they are free from racism, religious intolerance, and purges against the elven populace - where even elven children can be slaughtered - than so be it. It's a sacrifice that I'm willing to make with a Dalish Inquisitor, rather than maintaining the status quo that I find morally repugnant.

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Double Post:

I'm not saying that definitively that elves other than the Dalish were raiders, but we know from the codex entry "the Long March" that there were many elves who weren't in the Dales at all, and so long as there are other groups of elves, not just the Dalish, the possibility cannot be discounted that it was another group entirely that were the raiders.

It could've been elves who simply blamed humans for their problems like Zathrian or Velanna, it could've been elves who were a splinter group of the Dales themselves who wanted a war, or it could've been elves outside the Dales entirely.

Sure, it  could have been, but if we head down this track, it could have been anything.  It could have been Tevinter elves trying to destabilize the region.  It could have been humans disguised as elves.  It could have been elf human children with a burning hatred for both races.  The list of 'could have been' goes on and on.  But this is a story, so where's the narrative payoff for any one of these other groups having been responsible?  The point of the event is to highlight that elves and humans don't like each other very much, and to set up the two groups of elves as they stand in modern Thedas.  EDIT:  and the most important reason, which I can't believe I left out.  Namely, that both sides of the Dalish/Human divide have been bastards.  There is nothing to be gained by suddenly blaming a third party, or postulating conspiracy to defame one side or the other.

unless of course you're just looking to shift blame off your group of choice, which is a personal agenda that has nothing to do with the narrative we are given.

Modifié par TK514, 24 janvier 2014 - 04:30 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Double Post:

I'm not saying that definitively that elves other than the Dalish were raiders, but we know from the codex entry "the Long March" that there were many elves who weren't in the Dales at all, and so long as there are other groups of elves, not just the Dalish, the possibility cannot be discounted that it was another group entirely that were the raiders. 

It could've been elves who simply blamed humans for their problems like Zathrian or Velanna, it could've been elves who were a splinter group of the Dales themselves who wanted a war, or it could've been elves outside the Dales entirely.

So you think that bandits would be able to sack the second largest city in Orlais?

And every source on the matter straight up says that it was the Dalish who attacked Red Crossing. So we ahve to take taht at face value, and presume that the sources of that time could tell the difference between a common bandit and a Dalish army

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 janvier 2014 - 04:41 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Inquisition might shed light on what the Dalish clans could want from a hypothetical elven kingdom, if the Arlathvenn is taking place in the Dales (amidst the elven rebellion).

And hopefully allow the Dalish Inquisitor to influence it - in either direction (if we assume a binary between cooperation and domination/independence). My own views notwithstanding, I believe in player choice.

The Dalish don't force anyone to convert; you can voluntarily join them if you wish, or even leave them, as Velanna and Merrill proved.

That's plain false. Merril was forced to either abandon her view of the Eluvian and of what the right path for her people was, or to stay with her clan. She had a choice between exile and her beliefs. Same with Velanna. That's about what the Andrastians give the Dalish: abandon your gods and your mages, or we'll pursue you (minus the actual oppresion). 

Also, with Andrastian lynch mobs killing mages for absurd reasons and the hostility towards non-Andrastians, as well as the templar issue, you seem to be singling out the Dalish for wanting a kingdom where they would be their own masters, rather than being subservient to humans or outright killed. Or condemning the Dalish for wanting to teach their city counterparts about their history in a new elven kingdom.

No, I'm not. This is a thread about the Dalish. We are having a conversation about the Dalish. I have said repeatedly that Orlais commitment genocide and crimes against humanity, and the only reason they aren't the biggest criminals in Thedosian history is that Tevinter exists. I've said that the Alienages are a form of cultural eraditation and (basically) wage slavery at least, and that the Circles actually meet the proper definition of genocide. Short of Plaintiff, I think I've been the most vocal and outspoken critic of the Chantry and Orlais. 

I don't object to the Dalish "teaching". But the Dalish don't teach. They impose. I don't object to a kingdom for the elves; I object to a racially pure Dalish utopia, as much as I would object if Ferelden decided tommorrow it wanted to exile all the elves (which Loghain basically decided he'd do anyway, but via selling them into slavery). 

Your own hypocrisy doesn't let you see the nuance of my view, because I'm either with you or against all elves. 

I'm in favor of the elves having their own homeland, but I don't think innocent people need to die to make it happen.

You can be as much in denial as you want to be. Forcing an entire nation out of their  homes will lead to ethnic cleasing. That is how it works. That's how it always worked. 

It's as hypocritical and dishonest as people pretending that chemical castration isn't torture. 

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I'm not saying that definitively that elves other than the Dalish were raiders, but we know from the codex entry "the Long March" that there were many elves who weren't in the Dales at all, and so long as there are other groups of elves, not just the Dalish, the possibility cannot be discounted that it was another group entirely that were the raiders.

It could've been elves who simply blamed humans for their problems like Zathrian or Velanna, it could've been elves who were a splinter group of the Dales themselves who wanted a war, or it could've been elves outside the Dales entirely.

It may be that the initial attack on Red Crossing was a splinter group. But it remains that the next step was a full invasion of Orlais and a sacking of at least one major city, before a(n almost) siege of their capital. The Dalish invaded - that's the only possible explanation, unless you argue this account is a lie and Orlais was never invaded at all. 

I'm perfectly willing to grant someone staged the initial attack, but there's no way to stage an invasion. 

Modifié par In Exile, 24 janvier 2014 - 04:46 .

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
I'm not saying that definitively that elves other than the Dalish were raiders, but we know from the codex entry "the Long March" that there were many elves who weren't in the Dales at all, and so long as there are other groups of elves, not just the Dalish, the possibility cannot be discounted that it was another group entirely that were the raiders.

It could've been elves who simply blamed humans for their problems like Zathrian or Velanna, it could've been elves who were a splinter group of the Dales themselves who wanted a war, or it could've been elves outside the Dales entirely.

It may be that the initial attack on Red Crossing was a splinter group. But it remains that the next step was a full invasion of Orlais and a sacking of at least one major city, before a(n almost) siege of their capital. The Dalish invaded - that's the only possible explanation, unless you argue this account is a lie and Orlais was never invaded at all. 

I'm perfectly willing to grant someone staged the initial attack, but there's no way to stage an invasion. 

Fair enough. 

I simply think the possibility of an outside group attacking Red Crossing is pretty good. It may not be true, but it's a possibility that does exist.

Personally I don't see the Dale's motivation to invade unless they themselves were attacked first as they are strictly isolationists. I mean it may be possible that they were attacked and the Chantry's and Orlais' records won't talk about it because it woul have them as the aggressors, but it could just as easily be another splinter group like what Mother Petrice does with the Qunari in DA2 or something. 

I'm willing to wait for more information before saying one side or another is most definitely at fault as I have said, many times, I think both sides have dirty laundry. 

The Dales say the Chantry sent templars after they kicked out missionaries, and considering the Chantry's beliefs that anyone who isn't a worshipper of the Maker and their interpretation of the Chant of Light are heathens, it's not beyond the scope of reason. 

But it could just easily have been one single overzealous Knight-Captain or Knight-Commander and it reflected badly on all the Chantry and Orlais for all we know.

The Chantry and Orlais say that the elves sacked Red Crossing. Again, this could be a group of elves who aren't dalish, or a splinter group of the Dales themselves, but we do know it was elves.

Both sides pretty much say that there were border disputes growing throughout, and a lot of it had to do with the Dalish refusing to trade with any human nation, not helping Orlais during the Blight, and possibly racial tensions in and of itself. The racial tensions would rise in that the elves believe they are superior to humans, even modern Dalish maintain this point of view despite their current circumstances, and believe that assossication with humans is what made them lose their fabled immortality in the first place so they want to cut themselves off. However, after Andraste freed the South, I'm sure many humans had become accustomed to thinking of elves as nothing more than slaves, since elves had been nothing more than slaves for 1000 years before Andraste because of the Imperium. 

I think there was a great deal of racism on both sides, and that also contributed to the tensions on the border of Orlais and the Dales. 

Or I may very well be wrong, but there's a lot about that time that we don't really know. There's no denying that the Dales invaded Orlais, and was winning until the Exalted March was called. What isn't clear is how that war got started. That's all I'm saying. 

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish don't force anyone to convert; you can voluntarily join them if you wish, or even leave them, as Velanna and Merrill proved.

Do you  imagine they'd tolerate Andrastians living among them? As in elves that actually worship the maker, Andraste and follow the decrees of the Divine. One that does -not- accept the elven pantheon. Does not want to.

I'm not talking about being a former one trying to become Dalish either. I'm talking about an active, practising and preaching (or chanting, as the case may be) andrastian here.

Do you honestly believe that they wouldn't bat an eyelash and happily accept them as an equals?

Merrill was forced out and -hated- because she was different. Velanna cast out and so besmirched other elves looked upon her with revulsion. Zevran's mother exiled.
Arianni being allowed back I admit. Pol and Aneirin wanted to be dalish. And while Feynriel was welcomed, he does mention that it had been easier to live among humans than among the dalish. And not because they liver a harder life.
Overall, the dalish tolerance of people not following the staked out path is, more often than not, horrific.

Modifié par Sir JK, 24 janvier 2014 - 05:54 .

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I simply think the possibility of an outside group attacking Red Crossing is pretty good. It may not be true, but it's a possibility that does exist.

 
Why do you think it is pretty good?
  

Personally I don't see the Dale's motivation to invade unless they themselves were attacked first as they are strictly isolationists. I mean it may be possible that they were attacked and the Chantry's and Orlais' records won't talk about it because it woul have them as the aggressors, but it could just as easily be another splinter group like what Mother Petrice does with the Qunari in DA2 or something.  

I am not in the "Dalish are isiolationist" camp as much as others are in this thread. I think that the Dalish are isolationist in the sense that the eschew contact with humans because of a combination of (a) racial hatred ( cultural isolation and © racist ideology (the quickening group). I do not, however, think that this means that they would avoid war with humans. 

But there is a problem with this theory you advance. The Dalish didn't just defend their borders. Even if someone staged the attack and invaded, the Dalish didn't just repell it. They were ready to eradicate Orlais. 

The Dales say the Chantry sent templars after they kicked out missionaries, and considering the Chantry's beliefs that anyone who isn't a worshipper of the Maker and their interpretation of the Chant of Light are heathens, it's not beyond the scope of reason.  

Let's suppose that's right. Let's suppose the Orlesian Chantry decided, as a matter of policy, to wholesale convert the Dales. I actually believe that they did this. It is not unexpected given IRL history. 

Again, it doesn't change the fact that the Dalish invaded Orlais. Had the Chantry not rallied behind Orlais, we might be talking about the sack of Val Royeaux and the Dalish Empire in Southern Thedas. However aggressive the Chantry was - and I'm sure they were aggressive - the Dalish engaged in military conquest. 

Even if the defence is that the Dalish were so terrified of Orlais they needed to put them down forever... well, that has unsavory implications all on its own, and includes an implicit justification of the Orlesians eradicating the Dales out of the same fear and justification. 

Or I may very well be wrong, but there's a lot about that time that we don't really know. There's no denying that the Dales invaded Orlais, and was winning until the Exalted March was called. What isn't clear is how that war got started. That's all I'm saying.  

I agree with you. And again, I'm of the POV that Orlais and the Chantry started the war, their own lore notwithstanding, in the sense that I am sure that they tried to encroach in all and every possible way on Dalish sovereignty. 

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
I simply think the possibility of an outside group attacking Red Crossing is pretty good. It may not be true, but it's a possibility that does exist.

 
Why do you think it is pretty good?

Because unless the Dales were actively provoked by humans or the chantry, considering their isolationism, I don't see the motivation to attack. Wheras if they had been provoked, say an overzealous Knight-Commander or Knight-Captain from Red Crossing attacked the Dales in response to their missionaries getting kicked out, then yes, I could see the Dalish attacking and sacking the town, and then both stories would be right. 

Without more context on the attack itself and the Dalish motivations, I think the possibility is good. Not guaranteed, but there's a good chance it happened. 

 

Personally I don't see the Dale's motivation to invade unless they themselves were attacked first as they are strictly isolationists. I mean it may be possible that they were attacked and the Chantry's and Orlais' records won't talk about it because it woul have them as the aggressors, but it could just as easily be another splinter group like what Mother Petrice does with the Qunari in DA2 or something.  

I am not in the "Dalish are isiolationist" camp as much as others are in this thread. I think that the Dalish are isolationist in the sense that the eschew contact with humans because of a combination of (a) racial hatred ( cultural isolation and © racist ideology (the quickening group). I do not, however, think that this means that they would avoid war with humans. 

But there is a problem with this theory you advance. The Dalish didn't just defend their borders. Even if someone staged the attack and invaded, the Dalish didn't just repell it. They were ready to eradicate Orlais.

I never said my idea was fool-proof. 

Who knows, they may not have been trying to eradicate Orlais at all, and were fighting through Orlais to get to the Grand Cathedral, which is in Orlais's capital and were trying to eradicate the Chantry instead. 

I don't know the details, motivations or such, but the lore does make it clear that the Dalish went out of their way to keep any humans from coming into their lands and tried to limit their contact as much as possible before the war broke out. 

The Dales say the Chantry sent templars after they kicked out missionaries, and considering the Chantry's beliefs that anyone who isn't a worshipper of the Maker and their interpretation of the Chant of Light are heathens, it's not beyond the scope of reason.  

Let's suppose that's right. Let's suppose the Orlesian Chantry decided, as a matter of policy, to wholesale convert the Dales. I actually believe that they did this. It is not unexpected given IRL history. 

Again, it doesn't change the fact that the Dalish invaded Orlais. Had the Chantry not rallied behind Orlais, we might be talking about the sack of Val Royeaux and the Dalish Empire in Southern Thedas. However aggressive the Chantry was - and I'm sure they were aggressive - the Dalish engaged in military conquest. 

Even if the defence is that the Dalish were so terrified of Orlais they needed to put them down forever... well, that has unsavory implications all on its own, and includes an implicit justification of the Orlesians eradicating the Dales out of the same fear and justification.

Or they may have done what some of the barbarian tribes did to Rome. Try to sack the capital, (Rome), break up their armies and return to their own lands and leave the mighty empire too weak to attack them again. That actually happened in history when Rome was falling.

I'm not saying that was the Dalish motivation, as I truly don't know it, or if they were conquering Orlais, but considering the elves stance on regaining their immortality, I doubt they wanted to be among humans any longer than necessary.

But if they were trying to wipe out all of Orlais, that does indeed have some frightening implications, and you would be right.

Ultimately though, we don't know for sure.

Or I may very well be wrong, but there's a lot about that time that we don't really know. There's no denying that the Dales invaded Orlais, and was winning until the Exalted March was called. What isn't clear is how that war got started. That's all I'm saying.  

I agree with you. And again, I'm of the POV that Orlais and the Chantry started the war, their own lore notwithstanding, in the sense that I am sure that they tried to encroach in all and every possible way on Dalish sovereignty. 

I'm sure. They had the most motivation for war after all. They had just suffered a blight and much of their land was blighted and uninhabitable. They had many refugees that needed a new place to live. They have a religion that they feel must be spread to all corners of the world before the Maker would return and forgive them for the sins of Maferath betraying Andraste, not to mention that one codex that says that Orlais wanted to go into the Free Marches but the Dales were in the way...or what is probably more accurate the border tensions kept them from mustering a force strong enough to head into the Marches.

[Master Warder Z_]

TipsLeFedora wrote...

They need an image boost? Do the dalish have bad PR or something?

In a word?

Yup.

Mostly their own fault too.

hence my alignement of thought leading to the conclusion that DA would just be better off when that species finally spirals into the ground and dies out.

Pretty close to anyway, the Dalish are a minority of a shrinking Minority.

Give it a dozen or so centuries and i think the elves will be gone.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Okay, so no city elves, but elves who live in the cities and human socieites then. 

Kind of disappointed in you.  

Read the Codex "The Long Walk." 

It makes it clear that while most elves went to the dales, plenty simply gave up on route. Not all elves lived in the Dales, and so there were elves who lived in cities and human socities. They may not be called City Elves to the extent that we know them as in Origins, living in alienages and such, but there was elves living in the cities. 

Saying City Elves didn't exist yet is like saying "just because dwarves don't live in their thaigs now also means they never lived there." It makes no sense. 

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
I simply think the possibility of an outside group attacking Red Crossing is pretty good. It may not be true, but it's a possibility that does exist.

 
Why do you think it is pretty good?

Because unless the Dales were actively provoked by humans or the chantry, considering their isolationism, I don't see the motivation to attack. Wheras if they had been provoked, say an overzealous Knight-Commander or Knight-Captain from Red Crossing attacked the Dales in response to their missionaries getting kicked out, then yes, I could see the Dalish attacking and sacking the town, and then both stories would be right. 

Without more context on the attack itself and the Dalish motivations, I think the possibility is good. Not guaranteed, but there's a good chance it happened. 

 

Personally I don't see the Dale's motivation to invade unless they themselves were attacked first as they are strictly isolationists. I mean it may be possible that they were attacked and the Chantry's and Orlais' records won't talk about it because it woul have them as the aggressors, but it could just as easily be another splinter group like what Mother Petrice does with the Qunari in DA2 or something.  

I am not in the "Dalish are isiolationist" camp as much as others are in this thread. I think that the Dalish are isolationist in the sense that the eschew contact with humans because of a combination of (a) racial hatred ( cultural isolation and © racist ideology (the quickening group). I do not, however, think that this means that they would avoid war with humans. 

But there is a problem with this theory you advance. The Dalish didn't just defend their borders. Even if someone staged the attack and invaded, the Dalish didn't just repell it. They were ready to eradicate Orlais.

I never said my idea was fool-proof. 

Who knows, they may not have been trying to eradicate Orlais at all, and were fighting through Orlais to get to the Grand Cathedral, which is in Orlais's capital and were trying to eradicate the Chantry instead. 

I don't know the details, motivations or such, but the lore does make it clear that the Dalish went out of their way to keep any humans from coming into their lands and tried to limit their contact as much as possible before the war broke out. 

The Dales say the Chantry sent templars after they kicked out missionaries, and considering the Chantry's beliefs that anyone who isn't a worshipper of the Maker and their interpretation of the Chant of Light are heathens, it's not beyond the scope of reason.  

Let's suppose that's right. Let's suppose the Orlesian Chantry decided, as a matter of policy, to wholesale convert the Dales. I actually believe that they did this. It is not unexpected given IRL history. 

Again, it doesn't change the fact that the Dalish invaded Orlais. Had the Chantry not rallied behind Orlais, we might be talking about the sack of Val Royeaux and the Dalish Empire in Southern Thedas. However aggressive the Chantry was - and I'm sure they were aggressive - the Dalish engaged in military conquest. 

Even if the defence is that the Dalish were so terrified of Orlais they needed to put them down forever... well, that has unsavory implications all on its own, and includes an implicit justification of the Orlesians eradicating the Dales out of the same fear and justification.

Or they may have done what some of the barbarian tribes did to Rome. Try to sack the capital, (Rome), break up their armies and return to their own lands and leave the mighty empire too weak to attack them again. That actually happened in history when Rome was falling.

I'm not saying that was the Dalish motivation, as I truly don't know it, or if they were conquering Orlais, but considering the elves stance on regaining their immortality, I doubt they wanted to be among humans any longer than necessary.

But if they were trying to wipe out all of Orlais, that does indeed have some frightening implications, and you would be right.

Ultimately though, we don't know for sure.

Or I may very well be wrong, but there's a lot about that time that we don't really know. There's no denying that the Dales invaded Orlais, and was winning until the Exalted March was called. What isn't clear is how that war got started. That's all I'm saying.  

I agree with you. And again, I'm of the POV that Orlais and the Chantry started the war, their own lore notwithstanding, in the sense that I am sure that they tried to encroach in all and every possible way on Dalish sovereignty. 

I'm sure. They had the most motivation for war after all. They had just suffered a blight and much of their land was blighted and uninhabitable. They had many refugees that needed a new place to live. They have a religion that they feel must be spread to all corners of the world before the Maker would return and forgive them for the sins of Maferath betraying Andraste, not to mention that one codex that says that Orlais wanted to go into the Free Marches but the Dales were in the way...or what is probably more accurate the border tensions kept them from mustering a force strong enough to head into the Marches.

Are you just ignoring the fact that the Dales were assautling Human Settlements before the Exalted March was even called forth? The Slaughters they commited were what prompted the March on the Dales.

The Blight having just ravaged them and the Apathitic elves mooching off of the generousity of their faith not lifting a finger to assist them was the motivation.

But it wasn't the cause, Perhaps you are right and it was partially about territory but when a nation invades another nations bounds and slaughters its people that is an act of war.

Orlais responded to that act of war.

Regardless of whatever provocation the Dalish had declaring war on Orlais was their decision and they were the ones marching first, slaughtering first and laying siege first. Orlais isn't even a nation i am a fan of yet i defend them in this instance because the Dales fell because of their own stupidity and overeaching ambition.

[dragonflight288]

 

Are you just ignoring the fact that the Dales were assautling Human Settlements before the Exalted March was even called forth? The Slaughters they commited were what prompted the March on the Dales.

Have you read any of my previous posts? I specifically said that it's undeniable that the Dalish invaded Orlais, and were marching on Val Reyeaux before the Exalted March was called. I'm calling into question the START of the war.

The Blight having just ravaged them and the Apathitic elves mooching off of the generousity of their faith not lifting a finger to assist them was the motivation.

And I acknowledged that the Dales didn't aid Orlais during a blight. 

But it wasn't the cause, Perhaps you are right and it was partially about territory but when a nation invades another nations bounds and slaughters its people that is an act of war.

Orlais responded to that act of war.

Regardless of whatever provocation the Dalish had declaring war on Orlais was their decision and they were the ones marching first, slaughtering first and laying siege first. Orlais isn't even a nation i am a fan of yet i defend them in this instance because the Dales fell because of their own stupidity and overeaching ambition.

*sigh*

You obviously didn't read everything I said, or you are deliberately taking it out of context just to provoke an argument. 

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish don't force anyone to convert; you can voluntarily join them if you wish, or even leave them, as Velanna and Merrill proved.

That's plain false. Merril was forced to either abandon her view of the Eluvian and of what the right path for her people was, or to stay with her clan. She had a choice between exile and her beliefs. Same with Velanna. That's about what the Andrastians give the Dalish: abandon your gods and your mages, or we'll pursue you (minus the actual oppresion).

So your retort is the Dalish letting Merrill and Velanna leave the clan of their own accord? In other words, they aren't forced to submit, they have a choice (unlike the Chantry's demand for the Alienage elves to follow the Maker). The Andrastians are taught that the Chant needs to be sung from the four corners of the world to bring the Maker back, and we have heathens threatened or murdered because of it. I'm not seeing the comparison.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, with Andrastian lynch mobs killing mages for absurd reasons and the hostility towards non-Andrastians, as well as the templar issue, you seem to be singling out the Dalish for wanting a kingdom where they would be their own masters, rather than being subservient to humans or outright killed. Or condemning the Dalish for wanting to teach their city counterparts about their history in a new elven kingdom.

No, I'm not. This is a thread about the Dalish. We are having a conversation about the Dalish. I have said repeatedly that Orlais commitment genocide and crimes against humanity, and the only reason they aren't the biggest criminals in Thedosian history is that Tevinter exists. I've said that the Alienages are a form of cultural eraditation and (basically) wage slavery at least, and that the Circles actually meet the proper definition of genocide. Short of Plaintiff, I think I've been the most vocal and outspoken critic of the Chantry and Orlais. 

I don't object to the Dalish "teaching". But the Dalish don't teach. They impose. I don't object to a kingdom for the elves; I object to a racially pure Dalish utopia, as much as I would object if Ferelden decided tommorrow it wanted to exile all the elves (which Loghain basically decided he'd do anyway, but via selling them into slavery). 

Your own hypocrisy doesn't let you see the nuance of my view, because I'm either with you or against all elves.

Why would the Dalish strive for co-existence with humans when they know the plight of the elves who submitted to humanity? When the laws imposed against the Alienage elves and the purges marginalized their city counterparts? Given their history, it's understandable they would be wary; their current living situation is to be nomadic to avoid the templars - armed and armored humans who threaten any kin of theirs with magical ability. It's like your criticism is done in a vacuum, where you point out that the Dalish want to be left alone, but leave out the factors that contribute to why that's the case.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm in favor of the elves having their own homeland, but I don't think innocent people need to die to make it happen.

You can be as much in denial as you want to be. Forcing an entire nation out of their  homes will lead to ethnic cleasing. That is how it works. That's how it always worked. 

It's as hypocritical and dishonest as people pretending that chemical castration isn't torture. 

You mean I can disagree with you because of the factors involved (from the fledgling Inquisition to the veil tears and the civil war leading to an exodus), while you take my disagreement of your opinion personally, and continue to try to bait me with this overblown language of yours.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So any City Elf is free to join the Dalish clans, and keep worshipping the Maker? I highly doubt that.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

 

Are you just ignoring the fact that the Dales were assautling Human Settlements before the Exalted March was even called forth? The Slaughters they commited were what prompted the March on the Dales.

Have you read any of my previous posts? I specifically said that it's undeniable that the Dalish invaded Orlais, and were marching on Val Reyeaux before the Exalted March was called. I'm calling into question the START of the war.

The Blight having just ravaged them and the Apathitic elves mooching off of the generousity of their faith not lifting a finger to assist them was the motivation.

And I acknowledged that the Dales didn't aid Orlais during a blight. 

But it wasn't the cause, Perhaps you are right and it was partially about territory but when a nation invades another nations bounds and slaughters its people that is an act of war.

Orlais responded to that act of war.

Regardless of whatever provocation the Dalish had declaring war on Orlais was their decision and they were the ones marching first, slaughtering first and laying siege first. Orlais isn't even a nation i am a fan of yet i defend them in this instance because the Dales fell because of their own stupidity and overeaching ambition.

*sigh*

You obviously didn't read everything I said, or you are deliberately taking it out of context just to provoke an argument. 

I read it but speficially i was targeting the bottom paragraph with my point.

Your conjecture on motives and such wasn't interesting to me.

And Context is whatever perspective deems it to be and perspective is deterimined by the individual therefore ._. I cannot be taking it out of context given i established the context.

But enough grammatic oxymorons.

The point of my post is from a historical context you have two differing views of events but the one with more historical backing behind it is the Orlaisian account.

The Dalish have orals histories dating back a few generations that have likely been established merely to make up a tale of hardship and pride to serve as a cautionary tale or what have you. But the world of thedas's description on exalted marches and the one the dales in example from their accounting you have the Dalish assaulting human settlements before the war was even declared.

Regardless of what Orlais supposedly was doing at the time i doubt it was somehow comparable to unprovoked assaults on a sovereign empire.

So to sum up my point i suppose.

Unless if new evidence suddenly comes up about and history does a complete 180 at present? There is little there to excuse basically an unprovoked declaration of war on the part of the Dalish.

[Medhia Nox]

@EmperorSahlertz: However, the poetry of a city elf being so useless to the Dalish as to be forced to shovel Halla crap all day would be beautiful.

So much for the glory of the elves.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 janvier 2014 - 06:46 .

[Volus Warlord]

TipsLeFedora wrote...

They need an image boost? Do the dalish have bad PR or something?

We should hire IGN to work for them!

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Consider also the mages. If they Chantry declares an Exalted March, they might be willing to unleash some mages against the Dalish, which were probably solely needed since the Dales wouldn't refraim from using their most powerful mages to level the Orlesian armies (cf. like what all of Thedas did to the Qunari, minus technological superiority). 

Also true, as the Orlesian army wouldn't have had mages in it, unless they were apostates, as all mages were under the purview of the Chantry at this time. 

Ariane's dialogue about the Circle would suggest it played a role in the fall of the Dales.

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So any City Elf is free to join the Dalish clans, and keep worshipping the Maker? I highly doubt that.

The Religious freedom they seem to spout only applies to their own Gods.

Tis true.

[LobselVith8]

Jaison1986 wrote...

We also don't know if the elves did that out of malice or were provoked into attacking. Like with Zathrian. A handful of villagers murdered his children, wich caused him to slaughter almost everyone in the town. The typical "actions of a few comdemned them all". 

Given the Dalish codex, the attack on Red Crossing could have been retaliation against templar incursion into their sovereign territory.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So your retort is the Dalish letting Merrill and Velanna leave the clan of their own accord? In other words, they aren't forced to submit, they have a choice (unlike the Chantry's demand for the Alienage elves to follow the Maker). The Andrastians are taught that the Chant needs to be sung from the four corners of the world to bring the Maker back, and we have heathens threatened or murdered because of it. I'm not seeing the comparison.

"Conform or get out." Isn't really being given a choice.  Merrill would have absolutely preferred to continue her research and stay as part of her Clan, but she wasn't given that option.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given their history, it's understandable they would be wary; their current living situation is to be nomadic to avoid the templars - armed and armored humans who threaten any kin of theirs with magical ability.

I think you vastly overstate the threat the Templars pose to the Dalish because your pro-Mage bias makes you want them to be a catch-all villain.

We had a clan of Dalish living right outside Kirkwall, the center of Templar power in the region, for ten years.  Yet the only time they're violently antagonistic to the Dalish is when they know the clan is harbor ins a human Apostate.  Templars aren't the threat that keeps the Dalish on the move.  Humans in general are.  That and stripping an area bare of useful resources.  The Templars have much better things to spend their manpower on than chasing Dalish across the continent.  Sure, I can see a group of human who are Templars harassing a clan when the opportunity presents itself. I can also see them going after a cln when they perceive a clear and present threat.    But the idea of Templars as Dalish boogie men is an overreaction.