1258 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
No they aren't. As a Warden I could tell the Chantry to stuff it or insult their members. You can allow Dalish elves to become Wardens; they don't convert. Neither do dwarves or apostates. The Chantry may have a self entitled attitude as usual towards the Wardens, but the Warden's do not answer to them.

Also, the Tevinter Chantry follows a different interpretation of the Chant; they aren't the same as the rest of Thedas.

Being Andrastian =/= being associated with the Orlesian chantry. 

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...
Elves in human society are considered to be vermin so it goes both ways.Both sides are jerks to each other but the humans treat the elves as if they were animals.

Hyperbole. Vermin can't own property(and there are many historical instances of this being applied to women, so we can accurately say that the people of Thedas are less racist against elves than we've been sexist towards women in our history). Vermin aren't entitled to the protection of the law. 

As badly as humans treat city elves, Dalish treat city elves worse. If we fall on the, "This specific human is a collossal douchebag" argument, we can point out Zathrian. Jackasses with power and all that. Using outliers to paint an entire race is what racism is all about.

Thing about the Dalish, is they choose to be actively racist. Including against city elves.

[KiwiQuiche]

AresKeith wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yeah, the Chantry sucks all over the place.

That's the Chantry's fault, not average joe farmer.

But now with the Chantry burning down they can get a grip on everything.

Or we can weed out the corruption in the Chantry, seems quicker

Nah, it's already right at the top, what with the attempted murder of the Divine and the lunatic Templar order. Burn it down and start a church worshipping the Nug or something.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Most humans are rude jerkasses to elves so it kind of evens out IMO.Besides not all Dalish are hostile to humans since some are willing to trade goods with them.

Every Dalish first encounter involves the word shemlen. Not every first encounter between a city elf and a human involves either knifeears or shem in the conversation.

Now it might be that the Dalish we met are more obsessed with their Aryanism(city elves aren't blond or blue-eyed enough to be Dalish) than the norm, but it seems that they go past the line of rational caution into actively antagonizing anyone who isn't Aryan enough.

And in human lands it's perfectly okay to kidnap elven women in broad daylight so you can rape them(bonus points if the city guard lends a helping hand).Like I said before the humans have been bigger ****s to elves than vice versa.

Humans have done to that to other humans in real life.

OMG, elves are treated as badly by humans as humans treat each other. Clearly the elves have justification to believe that all humans are out to get them, as well as those dirty city elves who live alongside humans. Blood traitors aren't worthy of the presence of a true Dalish. 

Fact of the matter is, jackasses with power act exactly like jackasses with power. No special hate crime sauce necessary. Dalish have exhibited dramatically higher levels of racism than anyone else we've encountered. They are effectively the Tevinter of the elves.

That's funny..because in human society elves are either slaves or servants.Guess who I believe are the bigger racists of the two groups?

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
The Dalish elves are the remnants of the Dales, the most recent elven nation. They are effectively the representatives of the elves.

No. They're representatives of themselves. The CEs have their own plight, suffering, etc. The CEs are their own people, the dalish's patronizing and demeaning attitude towards them notwithstanding. 

As far as we know, an elf breeding with a non-elf produces a child of the non-elf race, which has been the case with every known coupling of this type. This notion alone suggests that they are endangered. 

No, it doesn't, anymore than people IRL not being straight somehow means humanity is endagered. 

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Most humans are rude jerkasses to elves so it kind of evens out IMO.Besides not all Dalish are hostile to humans since some are willing to trade goods with them.

Every Dalish first encounter involves the word shemlen. Not every first encounter between a city elf and a human involves either knifeears or shem in the conversation.

Now it might be that the Dalish we met are more obsessed with their Aryanism(city elves aren't blond or blue-eyed enough to be Dalish) than the norm, but it seems that they go past the line of rational caution into actively antagonizing anyone who isn't Aryan enough.

And in human lands it's perfectly okay to kidnap elven women in broad daylight so you can rape them(bonus points if the city guard lends a helping hand).Like I said before the humans have been bigger ****s to elves than vice versa.

Humans have done to that to other humans in real life.

OMG, elves are treated as badly by humans as humans treat each other. Clearly the elves have justification to believe that all humans are out to get them, as well as those dirty city elves who live alongside humans. Blood traitors aren't worthy of the presence of a true Dalish. 

Fact of the matter is, jackasses with power act exactly like jackasses with power. No special hate crime sauce necessary. Dalish have exhibited dramatically higher levels of racism than anyone else we've encountered. They are effectively the Tevinter of the elves.

That's funny..because in human society elves are either slaves or servants.Guess who I believe are the bigger racists of the two groups?

Factually inaccurate. There are many elves in human society who are neither slaves nor servants.

Even in Kirkwall. Rich merchant elf dude who offers you money to kill the crazy guy.

So, some elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants.

Slavery only exists in Tevinter, for both elves and humans.  Selectively ignoring information isn't making your case very strong.

[LobselVith8]

AresKeith wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yeah, the Chantry sucks all over the place.

That's the Chantry's fault, not average joe farmer.

But now with the Chantry burning down they can get a grip on everything. 

Or we can weed out the corruption in the Chantry, seems quicker 

Or focus on helping the elves regain a homeland, given the rumors of an elven rebellion in the Dales. With the growing power of the Inquisition, the Elvhen have a potential ally who will be amassing power, armies, and alliances.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Elves in human society are considered to be vermin so it goes both ways.Both sides are jerks to each other but the humans treat the elves as if they were animals.

Hyperbole. Vermin can't own property(and there are many historical instances of this being applied to women, so we can accurately say that the people of Thedas are less racist against elves than we've been sexist towards women in our history). Vermin aren't entitled to the protection of the law. 

As badly as humans treat city elves, Dalish treat city elves worse. If we fall on the, "This specific human is a collossal douchebag" argument, we can point out Zathrian. Jackasses with power and all that. Using outliers to paint an entire race is what racism is all about.

Thing about the Dalish, is they choose to be actively racist. Including against city elves.

Have you seen how most elves live?They are either dirt poor or servants who become part of their noble's house.

[Sir JK]

Vandicus wrote...

Thing about the Dalish, is they choose to be actively racist. Including against city elves.

Especially against city elves (unless of course this elf is perfectly willing to embrace the dalish way of life).

But this is a trait I like among the Dalish. Okay, I don't like the trait. But I like that they're not perfect

[In Exile]

Vandicus wrote...
Fact of the matter is, jackasses with power act exactly like jackasses with power. No special hate crime sauce necessary. Dalish have exhibited dramatically higher levels of racism than anyone else we've encountered. They are effectively the Tevinter of the elves.

The Dalish have a more targeted racism than the humans because they're the oppressed minority and the humans have the luxury of not defining themselves against a singular race of group, but it's not as if the humans aren't racists. 

It's just that the majority of humans social, political and cultural life is caught up in human-human interaction. It's not as if the Dalish aren't quite the same way when it comes to their own clans and politics (see especially the dynamic you get in the Dalish origin). 

[In Exile]

cjones91 wrote...
Have you seen how most elves live?They are either dirt poor or servants who become part of their noble's house.

Most humans seem to live in squalor too. Obviously the elves have it a lot worse becaus of how those humans treat and exclude them, but we really shouldn't be using the human nobles, i.e., thedas's 0.1%, as a sign of what life is like for humans relative to elves. 

I'd say the Dalish have a better quality of life than most people - humans and elves - in Thedas. 

Modifié par In Exile, 18 janvier 2014 - 10:53 .

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Elves in human society are considered to be vermin so it goes both ways.Both sides are jerks to each other but the humans treat the elves as if they were animals.

Hyperbole. Vermin can't own property(and there are many historical instances of this being applied to women, so we can accurately say that the people of Thedas are less racist against elves than we've been sexist towards women in our history). Vermin aren't entitled to the protection of the law. 

As badly as humans treat city elves, Dalish treat city elves worse. If we fall on the, "This specific human is a collossal douchebag" argument, we can point out Zathrian. Jackasses with power and all that. Using outliers to paint an entire race is what racism is all about.

Thing about the Dalish, is they choose to be actively racist. Including against city elves.

Have you seen how most elves live?They are either dirt poor or servants who become part of their noble's house.

And I repeat, the rich merchant elf from DA2. I'm sure I could find plenty of other well off elves if I bothered to scour DA2 and DA:O.

There are no special laws against elves owning property or running a business that have been brought up. The level of racism here is pretty 20th century. There are impediments, not shackles. Yes, the impediments are bad and should be removed. They are not nearly on the level that Dalish treat all non-Dalish with though.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Thing about the Dalish, is they choose to be actively racist. Including against city elves. 

Especially against city elves (unless of course this elf is perfectly willing to embrace the dalish way of life).

But this is a trait I like among the Dalish. Okay, I don't like the trait. But I like that they're not perfect

The Sabrae clan welcomed city elf Pol into their group, and we hear derogatory views about the Dalish from the Alienage elves in the City Elf Origin.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Elves want to just pretend they're the only ones who get raped or murdered by big strong mean people and only because they're elves. Some people when given power will abuse it to victimize others for their own pleasure or gain. Humans do it to everyone, dwarves, elves, humans, probably tal-vashoth if they could. It's called banditry, and it's been around forever. Meanwhile in the dalish origins, you see tamlen more then willing to murder a bunch of humans for no reason and making them beg for mercy, and then laugh about it.

So take your sanctimonious false outrage over how bad the elves got it and trying to say how right they are in being douches, and go screw.

[In Exile]

Vandicus wrote...

There are no special laws against elves owning property or running a business that have been brought up. The level of racism here is pretty 20th century. There are impediments, not shackles. Yes, the impediments are bad and should be removed. They are not nearly on the level that Dalish treat all non-Dalish with though.

No way. The elves treatment is way more like the 19th century's attitude toward former slaves, i.e., US circa post 1867. 

Modifié par In Exile, 18 janvier 2014 - 10:54 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Sabrae clan welcomed city elf Pol into their group, and we hear derogatory views about the Dalish from the Alienage elves in the City Elf Origin.

The actual history of the Dalish demeans the CEs as servants, pathetic, etc. and their lot in life being the result of personal failings of weakness. It's really prevalent in the Codex entries, just like the anti-human racism. 

[Vandicus]

I'd agree North post 1867, but below as the Mason-Dixon line I'd say no, former slaves had it worse than elves had it.

It seems that the laws pay lip service to equality under the law at this point, while being ignored, which strikes me as 20th century. Full on discriminatory laws were quite common post-1867, so they weren't even paying lip service to equality at that point.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As some have pointed out the Dalish do have a legit reason to be grumpy and rude to humans, being so utter disdainful isn't really helping their image- it just makes the average joe think "ungrateful self righteous elves". My warden sure as hell wasn't impressed when she was getting insulted when she was trying to help the Dalish. Neither was Hawke.

There's 'wary of strangers' and 'being a rude jerkass'

Most humans are rude jerkasses to elves so it kind of evens out IMO.Besides not all Dalish are hostile to humans since some are willing to trade goods with them.

Every Dalish first encounter involves the word shemlen. Not every first encounter between a city elf and a human involves either knifeears or shem in the conversation.

Now it might be that the Dalish we met are more obsessed with their Aryanism(city elves aren't blond or blue-eyed enough to be Dalish) than the norm, but it seems that they go past the line of rational caution into actively antagonizing anyone who isn't Aryan enough.

And in human lands it's perfectly okay to kidnap elven women in broad daylight so you can rape them(bonus points if the city guard lends a helping hand).Like I said before the humans have been bigger ****s to elves than vice versa.

Humans have done to that to other humans in real life.

OMG, elves are treated as badly by humans as humans treat each other. Clearly the elves have justification to believe that all humans are out to get them, as well as those dirty city elves who live alongside humans. Blood traitors aren't worthy of the presence of a true Dalish. 

Fact of the matter is, jackasses with power act exactly like jackasses with power. No special hate crime sauce necessary. Dalish have exhibited dramatically higher levels of racism than anyone else we've encountered. They are effectively the Tevinter of the elves.

That's funny..because in human society elves are either slaves or servants.Guess who I believe are the bigger racists of the two groups?

Factually inaccurate. There are many elves in human society who are neither slaves nor servants.

Even in Kirkwall. Rich merchant elf dude who offers you money to kill the crazy guy.

So, some elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants.

Slavery only exists in Tevinter, for both elves and humans.  Selectively ignoring information isn't making your case very strong.

I'm not ignoring anything.Elves are treated like crap in human society and I can list various things from the games themselves to prove it.The City Elf origin,the various comments NPCs make in regards to elves and so on.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Sabrae clan welcomed city elf Pol into their group, and we hear derogatory views about the Dalish from the Alienage elves in the City Elf Origin.

As I said, Pol was willing to become Dalish. That makes him welcome.

But my last city elf recieved an absolutely brutal treatment by Zathrian's clan, simply because she did not automatically accept that the Dalish was right. My human noble who said the same things was treated better. Much better.

Then we have other things... such as that Zevran's mother was exiled from her people. Arianni too, though she was allowed to come back (it might just have been her guilt though... which makes one wonder what she's feeling guilty for if the clan wasn't encouraging those feelings).

Not to mention Gisharel's writing, or how Sarel and people in the Dalish origin explains city elves.

It makes sense, yes. Perhaps it's even justified to some.

But it's not like the Dalish are the epitome of tolerance and understanding. They have their own dark sides. Which, as I said, I like.

[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Elves want to just pretend they're the only ones who get raped or murdered by big strong mean people and only because they're elves. Some people when given power will abuse it to victimize others for their own pleasure or gain. Humans do it to everyone, dwarves, elves, humans, probably tal-vashoth if they could. It's called banditry, and it's been around forever. Meanwhile in the dalish origins, you see tamlen more then willing to murder a bunch of humans for no reason and making them beg for mercy, and then laugh about it.

So take your sanctimonious false outrage over how bad the elves got it and trying to say how right they are in being douches, and go screw.

Nice way to get your point across by acting hostile to anyone who disagrees with you.No one is saying the elves are the only ones who get raped and murdered except for you.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Vandicus wrote...

Hyperbole. Vermin can't own property(and there are many historical instances of this being applied to women, so we can accurately say that the people of Thedas are less racist against elves than we've been sexist towards women in our history). Vermin aren't entitled to the protection of the law. 

As badly as humans treat city elves, Dalish treat city elves worse. If we fall on the, "This specific human is a collossal douchebag" argument, we can point out Zathrian. Jackasses with power and all that. Using outliers to paint an entire race is what racism is all about.

Thing about the Dalish, is they choose to be actively racist. Including against city elves.

That's definitely not true. We've really only seen a handful of Dalish encounters with City Elves and it isn't even remotely anything like the treatment they get from humans.

We know there is disdain that some Dalish have for City Elves for accepting their fate, but it isn't universal. Just like how some Alienage Elves consider Dalish to be savages, but that's not universal either.

We've rarely seen the two actually interact though. Pol certainly seemed to prefer it among the Sabrae Clan than in the Alienage. Even before he assimilated he seemed like he was being welcomed.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 janvier 2014 - 11:06 .