1258 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So any City Elf is free to join the Dalish clans, and keep worshipping the Maker? I highly doubt that.

Joining the Dalish is voluntary. We already know that there are cases where heathens are killed for not following the Maker, including entire towns of people.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So any City Elf is free to join the Dalish clans, and keep worshipping the Maker? I highly doubt that.

The Religious freedom they seem to spout only applies to their own Gods.

Tis true.

It is truly a Utopia what the Dalish has created for themselves...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So any City Elf is free to join the Dalish clans, and keep worshipping the Maker? I highly doubt that.

Joining the Dalish is voluntary. We already know that there are cases where heathens are killed for not following the Maker, including entire towns of people.

Ah, so an ELf born into the Dalish clan, is free to worship the Maker? Good to know.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 janvier 2014 - 07:01 .

[Volus Warlord]

Can we all just agree that the Dalish are a bunch of pathetic washups?

[Wothen]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Can we all just agree that the Dalish are a bunch of pathetic washups?

DA:O made me neutral of them
DA:2 made me want to kill all of them, city elves are the real elves, they are just a bunch of dales roleplayers, I swear even their ears are false

It took me 3 playthroughs to want to kill merril with my bare hands

Modifié par Wothen, 24 janvier 2014 - 07:22 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Can we all just agree that the Dalish are a bunch of pathetic washups?

I will whole heartedly agree to said sentiment.

Now a Round of Grog for me boys!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There were several things over the last few pages that I felt worth responding to.

Earlier when this came up in the thread I did some checking of the wiki against World of Thedas. And it does appear to be different in a couple key areas. Only the wiki says that Val Royeaux was sacked. World of Thedas says the elves were marching on the capital. All it says was that there were "significant elven gains" during the war before the Fall of Halamshiral.

I, like most people I think, assumed that other nations helped Orlais during it's war against the Dales but since World of Thedas is newer I think it supersedes old entries in the wiki. Most of the material in the wiki is based on obscure materials that was eventually confirmed in World of Thedas but there were a couple of things that were old lore ideas that Bioware changed slightly. This could have been one of them.

Just for clarification, Zathrian didn't wipe out an entire village. Swiftrunner says there was a "tribe" of humans that lived in the forest that kidnapped and raped/murdered Zathrian's children to drive the elves out. When he unleashed Witherfang on them, "many were killed" and "others turned into werewolves." But the tribe eventually left the Brecillian Forest and their cursed brethren behind.

Anerin left the Dalish because he doesn't consider himself one of them, but if I recall if you ask the clan about him they don't have a negative opinion of him. Nor he of them.

I think it would be fairly safe to say how much the Dalish would tolerate a city elf who worships the Maker among them would be highly dependent on the specific Keeper's opinion of that person. Which I'm sure would vary dramatically from Keeper or Keeper or from clan to clan. In a general sense though, the they might not like Andrastianism in elves much, but I don't think the Dalish spend any more time policing the religion among it's average populace than Chantry nations do. Nobody ever bothered Aveline in Kirkwall for probably not believing int he Maker.

[TK514]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Nobody ever bothered Aveline in Kirkwall for probably not believing int he Maker.

Probably because no one not named "Hawke" knew her doubts.  She was the Widow of a Templar, and a private person.  Why would anyone she didn't consider a close confidant have any reason to suspect?

I know that's off topic, but it seemed so out there, I had to ask.

On topic, not necessarily in response to Jedi: Let's say Dalish Christmas comes early this year and the Creators hand them a miracle to occupy the Dales.  What's the plan for dealing with the humans who live there and don't want to leave?  After all, the Dalish are, according to some, paragons of tolerance and acceptance because they took in one whole human child, allegedly, way back when.  So what's the grand plan for accommodating human farmers who decide they aren't going to vacate their land?

Modifié par TK514, 24 janvier 2014 - 08:44 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

TK514 wrote...

On topic, not necessarily in response to Jedi: Let's say Dalish Christmas comes early this year and the Creators hand them a miracle to occupy the Dales.  What's the plan for dealing with the humans who live there and don't want to leave?  After all, the Dalish are, according to some, paragons of tolerance and acceptance because they took in one whole human child, allegedly, way back when.  So what's the grand plan for accommodating human farmers who decide they aren't going to vacate their land?

Well obviously the Dalish are going to ask them nicely to leave, which of course the humans will agree to. The humans will then rapidly pack up their stuff, and happily remove themselves from Dalish lands. It will happen with great efficiency and not a single life will be lost. It will be a truly marvelous achievement to move such a large population so easily and so frictionless, but it is nevertheless what it means to be Dalish after all, to achieve great things..... Right? I mean what could possibly go wrong?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 janvier 2014 - 08:33 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, I've always been opposed to the Dalish forcibly reclaiming the Dales because I believe it will likely result in ethnic cleansing or otherwise a lot of innocent death that destabilizes the world further and ultimately makes things worse for both elves and humans.

BUT I will admit that I think a story about how the elves would deal with new homeland would make a very intriguing premise for a story. Exactly because the Dalish would have so many disparate viewpoints about how to deal with humans and city elves in or around their new territory.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 janvier 2014 - 08:58 .

[TK514]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well, I've always been opposed to the Dalish forcibly reclaiming the Dales because I believe it will likely result in ethnic cleansing or otherwise a lot of innocent death that destabilizes the world further and ultimately makes things worse for both elves and humans.

BUT I will admit that I think a story about how the elves would deal with new homeland would make a very intriguing premise for a story exactly because the Dalish would have so many disparate viewpoints about how to deal with humans and city elves in or around their new territory.

no disagreement here.

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So your retort is the Dalish letting Merrill and Velanna leave the clan of their own accord? In other words, they aren't forced to submit, they have a choice (unlike the Chantry's demand for the Alienage elves to follow the Maker). The Andrastians are taught that the Chant needs to be sung from the four corners of the world to bring the Maker back, and we have heathens threatened or murdered because of it. I'm not seeing the comparison.

"Conform or get out." Isn't really being given a choice.  Merrill would have absolutely preferred to continue her research and stay as part of her Clan, but she wasn't given that option.

You're voluntarily joining a group that's focused on maintaining their heritage and following the elven pantheon. The People are not forcibly converting elves to the elven pantheon. The Qunari, for example, were forcing people to convert to the Qun during the New Exalted Marches; the Dalish aren't forcing elves to convert. The Dalish don't even force people to stay with the clan if they want to leave.

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given their history, it's understandable they would be wary; their current living situation is to be nomadic to avoid the templars - armed and armored humans who threaten any kin of theirs with magical ability.

I think you vastly overstate the threat the Templars pose to the Dalish because your pro-Mage bias makes you want them to be a catch-all villain.

We had a clan of Dalish living right outside Kirkwall, the center of Templar power in the region, for ten years.  Yet the only time they're violently antagonistic to the Dalish is when they know the clan is harbor ins a human Apostate.  Templars aren't the threat that keeps the Dalish on the move.  Humans in general are.  That and stripping an area bare of useful resources.  The Templars have much better things to spend their manpower on than chasing Dalish across the continent.  Sure, I can see a group of human who are Templars harassing a clan when the opportunity presents itself. I can also see them going after a cln when they perceive a clear and present threat.    But the idea of Templars as Dalish boogie men is an overreaction. 

Merrill addresses that the Dalish are nomadic, in part, because templars pursue them, so I'm not certain why this is even debated. Ariane protected her clan from a templar; the idea that the templars simply ignore the Dalish isn't supported. And I address templars invading the Dales as a possibility because it's referenced in the codex for the Dales, from the Dalish Warden.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know the very same conversation where Merrill says that templars are part of the reason the clans keep moving also establishes they generally don't pursue if they stay away from human towns.

[TK514]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know the very same conversation where Merrill says that templars are part of the reason the clans keep moving also establishes they generally don't pursue if they stay away from human towns.

Exactly.  This idea that Templars relentlessly pursue the Dalish wherever they go is what isn't supported.  The Templars are not even remotely a primary threat.  They are a situational threat, at worst, and the situations are pretty easy for the Dalish to avoid, since they already go out of their way to avoid human settlements.

Because, you know, humans aren't keen on nomadic squatters showing up and stripping their land of game and resources before moving on.   Like locusts.  Or Quarians,

[Karach_Blade]

As someone who found both the City Elves and their Dalish cousins fascinating, I think resettling the Dales will backfire. It would mean supplanting humans who have been living there for centuries. While I am sympathetic towards elven plights, I also believe that punishing descendants of a group of people for their ancestors' actions is futile. I won't use real-world examples due to the risk of this thread becoming a flame war. <_<

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
So your retort is the Dalish letting Merrill and Velanna leave the clan of their own accord? In other words, they aren't forced to submit, they have a choice (unlike the Chantry's demand for the Alienage elves to follow the Maker). The Andrastians are taught that the Chant needs to be sung from the four corners of the world to bring the Maker back, and we have heathens threatened or murdered because of it. I'm not seeing the comparison.

"Conform or get out." Isn't really being given a choice.  Merrill would have absolutely preferred to continue her research and stay as part of her Clan, but she wasn't given that option.

You're voluntarily joining a group that's focused on maintaining their heritage and following the elven pantheon. The People are not forcibly converting elves to the elven pantheon. The Qunari, for example, were forcing people to convert to the Qun during the New Exalted Marches; the Dalish aren't forcing elves to convert. The Dalish don't even force people to stay with the clan if they want to leave.

But they do force people to leave if they don't conform.  You can't say the Dalish don't forcibly convert people if they refuse to tolerate anyone who doesn't.  If the decision is conform or leave that's still forcible conversion, the Dalish are just a lot more passive aggressive about it. 

Besides which it's not just the case with people who voluntarily join the Dalish.  Merril and Velanna weren't allowed to leave they were forced to leave.  The Dalish are essentially an overbearing parent saying, "If you don't follow my rules and live by my beliefs you can't live in this house."

[TheKomandorShepard]

DPSSOC wrote...



But they do force people to leave if they don't conform.  You can't say the Dalish don't forcibly convert people if they refuse to tolerate anyone who doesn't.  If the decision is conform or leave that's still forcible conversion, the Dalish are just a lot more passive aggressive about it. 

Besides which it's not just the case with people who voluntarily join the Dalish.  Merril and Velanna weren't allowed to leave they were forced to leave.  The Dalish are essentially an overbearing parent saying, "If you don't follow my rules and live by my beliefs you can't live in this house."

One thing merril wasn't forced to leave she left on her own if i renember correctly even her keeper said that she don't have to leave trying convinve her to say.

[Liyros]

Karach_Blade wrote...

As someone who found both the City Elves and their Dalish cousins fascinating, I think resettling the Dales will backfire. It would mean supplanting humans who have been living there for centuries. While I am sympathetic towards elven plights, I also believe that punishing descendants of a group of people for their ancestors' actions is futile. I won't use real-world examples due to the risk of this thread becoming a flame war. <_<

So humans should make moves to improve the lot of elves to counteract the privalege they are receiving.  Alistair, if made King, begins to do so.

[dreamgazer]

The Dalish Need an Image Boost

Do they need to be sharpened, or does the contrast need to be raised?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Saslic wrote...

Karach_Blade wrote...

As someone who found both the City Elves and their Dalish cousins fascinating, I think resettling the Dales will backfire. It would mean supplanting humans who have been living there for centuries. While I am sympathetic towards elven plights, I also believe that punishing descendants of a group of people for their ancestors' actions is futile. I won't use real-world examples due to the risk of this thread becoming a flame war. <_<

So humans should make moves to improve the lot of elves to counteract the privalege they are receiving.  Alistair, if made King, begins to do so.

where is stated that alistair did something in that direction outside boon what failed?

[sandalisthemaker]

They will be getting the plastic surgery they so desperately need. How's that for an image boost?

[dragonflight288]

EDIT: What if humans took the initiative to give elves some of their own land and sovereignty, or took more strides to allow them more equality so there's not as much need for their own land to be treated with equality in a society. What then?

That would take a great deal of effort on the humans part, but if that did happen then that would be really cool.

[DPSSOC]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
But they do force people to leave if they don't conform.  You can't say the Dalish don't forcibly convert people if they refuse to tolerate anyone who doesn't.  If the decision is conform or leave that's still forcible conversion, the Dalish are just a lot more passive aggressive about it. 

Besides which it's not just the case with people who voluntarily join the Dalish.  Merril and Velanna weren't allowed to leave they were forced to leave.  The Dalish are essentially an overbearing parent saying, "If you don't follow my rules and live by my beliefs you can't live in this house."

One thing merril wasn't forced to leave she left on her own if i renember correctly even her keeper said that she don't have to leave trying convinve her to say.

Merril's views didn't fall in line with the Keeper's, she was given the option of towing the line or leaving.  She was forced to leave.

Faerunner wrote...
EDIT: What if humans took the initiative to give elves some of their own land and sovereignty, or took more strides to allow them more equality so there's not as much need for their own land to be treated with equality in a society. What then?

Simple question, why?  What incentive do the humans have to take such steps?  As far as they're concerned the Dalish have absolutely nothing to offer them, mostly out of ignorance because the Dalish don't talk to anybody.  Same with the City Elves, it might be nice of the humans to grant them more equality and help establish a better standard of living but what do they gain from it?

People are inherently selfish and rare is the person who'll take action outside or against their own interests, so sadly if the Elves want Humans to take steps to make their lives better they need to give them a reason.

[DPSSOC]

Actually just thought of a simple solution for the Dalish (note simple, not easy). It gets them everything they want, a place to call their own, isolation from humans, and easy access to fuel for magic. The Deep Roads.

Think about it the Dalish have had 3 golden opportunities where the Deep Roads were empty to ask the Dwarves for permission to clear out and hold a portion of the Deep Roads just outside Orzammar. No human is going to be mad enough to pester them there, and invasion would require they go through the Dwarves first. The Dwarves get a new partner to trade lyrium with, meaning they can in turn charge the Chantry more (greater demand), another power in the Deep Roads taking darkspawn pressure off of them in between Blights, and a staging ground maintained by another force (meaning they don't have to) that they could use to press into and claim more of the Deep Roads back. That's not even beginning to factor in the advantages of Dalish reinforcements against the darkspawn; unparalleled archers, trackers, and perhaps most valuable mages.

Of course the Dalish haven't, and never will, take advantage of this because 1) it'd be hard and they just want a homeland handed to them, 2) they'd have to live underground, and 3) they'd have to stop moaning about the shemlen.