1258 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Sabrae clan welcomed city elf Pol into their group, and we hear derogatory views about the Dalish from the Alienage elves in the City Elf Origin. 

The actual history of the Dalish demeans the CEs as servants, pathetic, etc. and their lot in life being the result of personal failings of weakness. It's really prevalent in the Codex entries, just like the anti-human racism. 

The City Elf history acknowledges their second class status, while the Dalish history talks about the Alienage elves who submitted to human rule and gave up their heritage to live in servitude to the humans.

Meanwhile, we see how Pol is treated well when he goes to live with Marethari's clan; it's not like he's treated in a derogatory fashion for being from an Alienage. Aneirin was also welcomed by Zathrian's clan, and he wasn't born among the Dalish, either.

[cjones91]

Faerunner wrote...

You know, if the roles were reversed and elves were the dominant race that conquered, enslaved, subjugated, and barely tolerated humans for centuries, I don't think we'd even be having this argument. Most people would agree that elves were horrible tyrants and oppressive slavers, and would applaud nomadic human tribes for refusing to submit to elven rule and applaud them treating elves with distrust and contempt. Since humans are the dominant culture, I'm seeing a lot of excuses, rationalizations, victim-blaming, false analogies, etc.

That would be a interesting experiment for if the elves regain what they lost.I wonder if some of these posters would condone humans trying to take over elven lands just like what the Dalish are trying to do with the Dales.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything.Elves are treated like crap in human society and I can list various things from the games themselves to prove it.The City Elf origin,the various comments NPCs make in regards to elves and so on.

You brought up elves being slaves. You conveniently forgot to mention that the only nation in which elves are slaves, are one in which humans are also slaves.

You claimed earlier that elves are treated like vermin. People can't casually murder elves, so that's a blatant falsehood. Yes, people with sufficient political power can kill elves, but people with sufficient political power can kill anyone and get away with it.

Now you've shifted the goalposts to simply saying that elves are treated like second-class citizens. Guess what, I've been saying that all along.

You were the one who claimed that elves were exclusively slaves and servants in human society. That's blatantly false.


The Dalish on the other hand are full-on isolationist master race types. Some of them are exceptions to this, but the specific culture that identifies as Dalish seems to be about excluding anyone who is not like them. At least human societies, as racist as they are, accept outsiders into their midst.

[Master Warder Z_]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If the Dalish stopped living in "the past glory of their people" and sought a cultural identity outside of bitter racism and cultural stagnation - then maybe I'd find them in some way interesting.

I prefer the City Elves - and would rather see them make something of themselves.

Agreed and My exact perspective on the Matter.

I wouldn't mind better living conditions alongside Humanity, but that said Serfdom will continue to exist within Thedas i have a feeling, it extends far beyond racial sterotyping its a very foundation of cultural identity to a good deal of its Nations. And in truth apart from mere racial differences poor Humans and Poor Elves aren't treated overly diffrent besides from the fact that any local lord can conscript any human wandering the streets of the need for new levies of troops arise.

Elves aren't subject to that in many nations; There are pro's and cons to their situation, far more cons then pro's but their situation is entirely helpless either.

But again as i said my hopes lie with the cities ekves eventually getting a better lot in life, not a broken, fragmented remenant of a fallen empire. How they will acheive this is yet to be seen, but the Dalish can perish in their arrogance and egostism for all i care.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything.Elves are treated like crap in human society and I can list various things from the games themselves to prove it.The City Elf origin,the various comments NPCs make in regards to elves and so on.

You brought up elves being slaves. You conveniently forgot to mention that the only nation in which elves are slaves, are one in which humans are also slaves.

You claimed earlier that elves are treated like vermin. People can't casually murder elves, so that's a blatant falsehood. Yes, people with sufficient political power can kill elves, but people with sufficient political power can kill anyone and get away with it.

Now you've shifted the goalposts to simply saying that elves are treated like second-class citizens. Guess what, I've been saying that all along.

You were the one who claimed that elves were exclusively slaves and servants in human society. That's blatantly false.


The Dalish on the other hand are full-on isolationist master race types. Some of them are exceptions to this, but the specific culture that identifies as Dalish seems to be about excluding anyone who is not like them. At least human societies, as racist as they are, accept outsiders into their midst.

Does the Denerim Alienage Purge ring any bells?And I love how you say my claim is false when the elves themselves can't get any jobs and are forced to be servants just to make money.If anything you are making false claims against the Dalish by saying they are this and that without any proof to back it up.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Sabrae clan welcomed city elf Pol into their group, and we hear derogatory views about the Dalish from the Alienage elves in the City Elf Origin. 

As I said, Pol was willing to become Dalish. That makes him welcome.

But my last city elf recieved an absolutely brutal treatment by Zathrian's clan, simply because she did not automatically accept that the Dalish was right. My human noble who said the same things was treated better. Much better.

Then we have other things... such as that Zevran's mother was exiled from her people. Arianni too, though she was allowed to come back (it might just have been her guilt though... which makes one wonder what she's feeling guilty for if the clan wasn't encouraging those feelings). 

Not to mention Gisharel's writing, or how Sarel and people in the Dalish origin explains city elves. 

It makes sense, yes. Perhaps it's even justified to some. 

But it's not like the Dalish are the epitome of tolerance and understanding. They have their own dark sides. Which, as I said, I like. 

True, everyone is flawed, including the Dalish. 

That said, I find the Elvhen interesting; somewhat reminiscent of the Taino people. I do find it appealing that the People never surrendered their heritage or religion, despite the overwhelming odds against them. I'm hoping for a bona fide Dalish protagonist in Inquisition - elven views about the Beyond, spirits (rather than Spirits and Demons, aka the First Children of the Maker), the choice to believe in the Creators, and the option to believe in the Dalish historical account of the fall of the Dales.

[Vandicus]

Faerunner wrote...

You know, if the roles were reversed and elves were the dominant race that conquered, enslaved, subjugated, and barely tolerated humans for centuries, I don't think we'd even be having this argument. Most people would agree that elves were horrible tyrants and oppressive slavers, and would applaud nomadic human tribes for refusing to submit to elven rule and applaud them treating elves with distrust and contempt. Since humans are the dominant culture, I'm seeing a lot of excuses, rationalizations, victim-blaming, false analogies, etc.

I doubt that. In novelizations, for instance a fantasy series I recall where dragons ruled over humans(the compilation I have is titled "Legends of the Dragonrealm" by Richard A. Knaak), the radical equivalent of the Dalish who didn't tolerate dragons whatsoever are portrayed quite negatively, as impediments to progress. The rebel "heroes" end up building friendly relations with the dragons who are willing to do so.

Not all the humans in Thedas have a Dalish-level of hatred for elves. A no-compromise us or them attitude is precisely what makes the Dalish so disliked. I've got no problems with the City elves fighting against the Orlesian government. The Orlesian government is pretty much composed of d-bags. Good on them for fighting for their rights, hopefully not masaccreing schools full of children or committing ethnic genocide in the process.

Speaking of which, the people who committed genocide against the elves are all dead. Not an excuse to go after modern humans.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

You know, if the roles were reversed and elves were the dominant race that conquered, enslaved, subjugated, and barely tolerated humans for centuries, I don't think we'd even be having this argument. Most people would agree that elves were horrible tyrants and oppressive slavers, and would applaud nomadic human tribes for refusing to submit to elven rule and applaud them treating elves with distrust and contempt. Since humans are the dominant culture, I'm seeing a lot of excuses, rationalizations, victim-blaming, false analogies, etc.

I doubt that. In novelizations, for instance a fantasy series I recall where dragons ruled over humans(the compilation I have is titled "Legends of the Dragonrealm" by Richard A. Knaak), the radical equivalent of the Dalish who didn't tolerate dragons whatsoever are portrayed quite negatively, as impediments to progress. The rebel "heroes" end up building friendly relations with the dragons who are willing to do so.

Not all the humans in Thedas have a Dalish-level of hatred for elves. A no-compromise us or them attitude is precisely what makes the Dalish so disliked. I've got no problems with the City elves fighting against the Orlesian government. The Orlesian government is pretty much composed of d-bags. Good on them for fighting for their rights, hopefully not masaccreing schools full of children or committing ethnic genocide in the process.

Speaking of which, the people who committed genocide against the elves are all dead. Not an excuse to go after modern humans.

Denerim Alienage being purged is one example of elves being killed in the current timeline.And I want proof that all Dalish hate City Elves and not just some clans.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything.Elves are treated like crap in human society and I can list various things from the games themselves to prove it.The City Elf origin,the various comments NPCs make in regards to elves and so on.

You brought up elves being slaves. You conveniently forgot to mention that the only nation in which elves are slaves, are one in which humans are also slaves.

You claimed earlier that elves are treated like vermin. People can't casually murder elves, so that's a blatant falsehood. Yes, people with sufficient political power can kill elves, but people with sufficient political power can kill anyone and get away with it.

Now you've shifted the goalposts to simply saying that elves are treated like second-class citizens. Guess what, I've been saying that all along.

You were the one who claimed that elves were exclusively slaves and servants in human society. That's blatantly false.


The Dalish on the other hand are full-on isolationist master race types. Some of them are exceptions to this, but the specific culture that identifies as Dalish seems to be about excluding anyone who is not like them. At least human societies, as racist as they are, accept outsiders into their midst.

Does the Denerim Alienage Purge ring any bells?And I love how you say my claim is false when the elves themselves can't get any jobs and are forced to be servants just to make money.If anything you are making false claims against the Dalish by saying they are this and that without any proof to back it up.

Forced to be servants eh?

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elren

Must be a human cosplaying. Again, I could scour the games, but that's just the one I remember off the top of my head.

What purge are you referring to?

[Master Warder Z_]

Faerunner wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

That's funny..because in human society elves are either slaves or servants.Guess who I believe are the bigger racists of the two groups?

Factually inaccurate. There are many elves in human society who are neither slaves nor servants.

Even in Kirkwall. Rich merchant elf dude who offers you money to kill the crazy guy.

Oh yeah, one rich elf in a sea of elven poverty that covers every human nation clearly constitutes "many." And indicates equal socio-economic standing and opportunities.

So, some elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants.

No, most elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants. That's the point.

AHEM.

This is a Pesudo Fantasy Feudalistic Setting.

80% of Humanity is indebted into Serfdom in one way or another. It differs EVER so slightly in the various nations but the overlying truth of the matter is?

Unless if you are born into Wealth upon the surface your own choice to escape serfdom is to serve in a Military Order and HOPE beyond hope to escape poverty by advancing to Moderate nobility.

As for slavery? I would agrue that's an overblown concern considering the only Nation in Thedas where it is both legalized and in major effect it isn't racially desteriminate upon. Both Humans and Elves can be cattle to the senate within the Imperium.

Ironically enough? This situation was fairly common place within our own world once upon a time, You could agrue it is still in effect to some degree what with Socio Economic Depency upon the need to maintain a living at the behest of "Nobility" (Those who employ the serfs).

._. So my prior point remains.

Poor elves and Poor Humans are pretty much the same in the eyes of society if you overlook base racial descrimination. Elves are afford fewer chances to raise their station certainly, but Poor Humans aren't offered many either.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything.Elves are treated like crap in human society and I can list various things from the games themselves to prove it.The City Elf origin,the various comments NPCs make in regards to elves and so on.

You brought up elves being slaves. You conveniently forgot to mention that the only nation in which elves are slaves, are one in which humans are also slaves.

The elven Warden can say the treatment of the Orlesian elves sounded like slavery to Leliana, which may have been one of the intended points.

Vandicus wrote...

The Dalish on the other hand are full-on isolationist master race types. Some of them are exceptions to this, but the specific culture that identifies as Dalish seems to be about excluding anyone who is not like them. At least human societies, as racist as they are, accept outsiders into their midst. 

Human societies accept them in subservient positions. The refusal of the Dalish to surrender their faith or their heritage hardly makes them "master race types", especially when the Chantry wants them to surrender what makes them elven and convert to the Chantry.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

True, everyone is flawed, including the Dalish. 

That said, I find the Elvhen interesting; somewhat reminiscent of the Taino people. I do find it appealing that the People never surrendered their heritage or religion, despite the overwhelming odds against them. I'm hoping for a bona fide Dalish protagonist in Inquisition - elven views about the Beyond, spirits (rather than Spirits and Demons, aka the First Children of the Maker), the choice to believe in the Creators, and the option to believe in the Dalish historical account of the fall of the Dales.

I agree completely. Like I said in my first post in this thread, I'd love to learn more about the Dalish. The good, the bad, the ugly and the interesting.

And I also agree that the Dalish defiance is part of what makes them interesting. Who does not like an underdog that refuses to give up, after all. I just like when things are complex. Part of why I want to see so much more of the Dalish flaws. Their lore, their history and their characters make them interesting. But their flaws make them oh so much deeper. 

Also, out of curiosity... why Taino specifically? I can think of a large number of peoples the Dalish correspond to, so why them?

[Vandicus]

Faerunner wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

That's funny..because in human society elves are either slaves or servants.Guess who I believe are the bigger racists of the two groups?

Factually inaccurate. There are many elves in human society who are neither slaves nor servants.

Even in Kirkwall. Rich merchant elf dude who offers you money to kill the crazy guy.

Oh yeah, one rich elf in a sea of elven poverty that covers every human nation clearly constitutes "many." And indicates equal socio-economic standing and opportunities.

So, some elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants.

No, most elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants. That's the point.

Congrats, you've conclude that elves are second-class citizens. I've mentioned that so many times I'm getting tired of it.

Cjones believes elves are treated as vermin. Go back and read his posts. He's grossly exaggerated how humans have treated elves, not to mention extrapolating what a human noble has done to the entire race(as I pointed out before we could do the same with Zathrian, but that's completely idiotic, Zathrian is no more representative of the Dalish then a few human nobles represent all of humanity) to justify Dalish being hostile beyond the point of practical caution to non-Dalish.

Again, on the slavery thing, that's Tevinter. Slaves,slaves,slaves. Elves can be magisters and slave-owners in Tevinter to. Its more of a magic vs mundane society than an elf vs human one. Not really appropriate to bring up elf-human racism in society using an example that has nothing to diw th elf-human racism, and everything to do with whether or not one is born with magic.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything.Elves are treated like crap in human society and I can list various things from the games themselves to prove it.The City Elf origin,the various comments NPCs make in regards to elves and so on.

You brought up elves being slaves. You conveniently forgot to mention that the only nation in which elves are slaves, are one in which humans are also slaves.

You claimed earlier that elves are treated like vermin. People can't casually murder elves, so that's a blatant falsehood. Yes, people with sufficient political power can kill elves, but people with sufficient political power can kill anyone and get away with it.

Now you've shifted the goalposts to simply saying that elves are treated like second-class citizens. Guess what, I've been saying that all along.

You were the one who claimed that elves were exclusively slaves and servants in human society. That's blatantly false.


The Dalish on the other hand are full-on isolationist master race types. Some of them are exceptions to this, but the specific culture that identifies as Dalish seems to be about excluding anyone who is not like them. At least human societies, as racist as they are, accept outsiders into their midst.

Does the Denerim Alienage Purge ring any bells?And I love how you say my claim is false when the elves themselves can't get any jobs and are forced to be servants just to make money.If anything you are making false claims against the Dalish by saying they are this and that without any proof to back it up.

Forced to be servants eh?

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elren

Must be a human cosplaying. Again, I could scour the games, but that's just the one I remember off the top of my head.

What purge are you referring to?

The one that occurs sometime later in DAO,if you play the City Elf origin then there was a small riot and a entire building full of elves were killed including children.It was so bad that the Veil was torn there and demons were occupying the building.Like I said many times elves are either forced to be servants or live in squalor so I don't care if one elf made it big when the others don't even get jobs at all.

[Master Warder Z_]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything.Elves are treated like crap in human society and I can list various things from the games themselves to prove it.The City Elf origin,the various comments NPCs make in regards to elves and so on.

You brought up elves being slaves. You conveniently forgot to mention that the only nation in which elves are slaves, are one in which humans are also slaves.

You claimed earlier that elves are treated like vermin. People can't casually murder elves, so that's a blatant falsehood. Yes, people with sufficient political power can kill elves, but people with sufficient political power can kill anyone and get away with it.

Now you've shifted the goalposts to simply saying that elves are treated like second-class citizens. Guess what, I've been saying that all along.

You were the one who claimed that elves were exclusively slaves and servants in human society. That's blatantly false.


The Dalish on the other hand are full-on isolationist master race types. Some of them are exceptions to this, but the specific culture that identifies as Dalish seems to be about excluding anyone who is not like them. At least human societies, as racist as they are, accept outsiders into their midst.

Does the Denerim Alienage Purge ring any bells?And I love how you say my claim is false when the elves themselves can't get any jobs and are forced to be servants just to make money.If anything you are making false claims against the Dalish by saying they are this and that without any proof to back it up.

Forced to be servants eh?

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elren

Must be a human cosplaying. Again, I could scour the games, but that's just the one I remember off the top of my head.

What purge are you referring to?

The Purge that results from the events of the city elf orgin story.

The Local Arl's son kidnaps some elves, He either ultimately is slain by the PC or left to rot by the PC after accepting a deal and a bribe. The entire event however is turned on its head once Arl Howe is appointed Arl of Denirim and leads a brutal purge in relitation for the "Murder". If the Arl's Son Survived however he is secertly Imprisioned by Howe and the purge carried out anyway.

The reasoning behind it is relatively vague but it was likely a PR stunt to get the Nobility of Denirim to support Howe in the Interim after Ostogar.

So i would agrue that many purges in history were carried out because people of importance were murdered, even within DA. Agruing it was based more so on race rather then the apparent Murder i would say is...Conjectural Spectulative Reasoning at best, given that had Humans murdered high nobility within his own city they likely would have been put to torch much the same.

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

That's funny..because in human society elves are either slaves or servants.Guess who I believe are the bigger racists of the two groups?

Factually inaccurate. There are many elves in human society who are neither slaves nor servants.

Even in Kirkwall. Rich merchant elf dude who offers you money to kill the crazy guy.

Oh yeah, one rich elf in a sea of elven poverty that covers every human nation clearly constitutes "many." And indicates equal socio-economic standing and opportunities.

So, some elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants.

No, most elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants. That's the point.

Congrats, you've conclude that elves are second-class citizens. I've mentioned that so many times I'm getting tired of it.

Cjones believes elves are treated as vermin. Go back and read his posts. He's grossly exaggerated how humans have treated elves, not to mention extrapolating what a human noble has done to the entire race(as I pointed out before we could do the same with Zathrian, but that's completely idiotic, Zathrian is no more representative of the Dalish then a few human nobles represent all of humanity) to justify Dalish being hostile beyond the point of practical caution to non-Dalish.

Again, on the slavery thing, that's Tevinter. Slaves,slaves,slaves. Elves can be magisters and slave-owners in Tevinter to. Its more of a magic vs mundane society than an elf vs human one. Not really appropriate to bring up elf-human racism in society using an example that has nothing to diw th elf-human racism, and everything to do with whether or not one is born with magic.

Prove that I exaggerated anything in my posts.Better yet prove that elves aren't treated like vermin because that's how human society has been depicted in regards to human/elf relations.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything.Elves are treated like crap in human society and I can list various things from the games themselves to prove it.The City Elf origin,the various comments NPCs make in regards to elves and so on.

You brought up elves being slaves. You conveniently forgot to mention that the only nation in which elves are slaves, are one in which humans are also slaves.

The elven Warden can say the treatment of the Orlesian elves sounded like slavery to Leliana, which may have been one of the intended points.

Vandicus wrote...

The Dalish on the other hand are full-on isolationist master race types. Some of them are exceptions to this, but the specific culture that identifies as Dalish seems to be about excluding anyone who is not like them. At least human societies, as racist as they are, accept outsiders into their midst. 

Human societies accept them in subservient positions. The refusal of the Dalish to surrender their faith or their heritage hardly makes them "master race types", especially when the Chantry wants them to surrender what makes them elven and convert to the Chantry.

The "master race" types is because of how they treat non-Dalish elves. They seem to firmly believe that they are superior to city elves. Wanting all city elves to be Dalish in order to be accepted is no different from the Chantry trying to force Andrastianism on to them.

Again, I've got no problem with the city elves rebelling in Orlais(especially if they're less racist than the current lot ruling). The Dalish on the other hand, with the exception of the ones who are tolerant of non-Dalish, don't really warrant any reverenace. They don't deserved to be hunted down and killed either, but they're still ****s. They have every right to be intolerant asses. I'm not going to pretend that they're crusaders for social justic though. 

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

What purge are you referring to? 

The purge in Denerim where the Alienage elves are brought into line, with men, women, and children being killed en mass, as we see with the massacre at the orphanage.

This is a society where one cared about elven women being abducted in broad daylight in Denerim, or elven children being murdered in Kirkwall. It's not exactly surprising, especially given how Duncan notes that it's hard to convince humans to discard racism when they've lived their lives seeing elves as less than people.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

That's funny..because in human society elves are either slaves or servants.Guess who I believe are the bigger racists of the two groups?

Factually inaccurate. There are many elves in human society who are neither slaves nor servants.

Even in Kirkwall. Rich merchant elf dude who offers you money to kill the crazy guy.

Oh yeah, one rich elf in a sea of elven poverty that covers every human nation clearly constitutes "many." And indicates equal socio-economic standing and opportunities.

So, some elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants.

No, most elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants. That's the point.

Congrats, you've conclude that elves are second-class citizens. I've mentioned that so many times I'm getting tired of it.

Cjones believes elves are treated as vermin. Go back and read his posts. He's grossly exaggerated how humans have treated elves, not to mention extrapolating what a human noble has done to the entire race(as I pointed out before we could do the same with Zathrian, but that's completely idiotic, Zathrian is no more representative of the Dalish then a few human nobles represent all of humanity) to justify Dalish being hostile beyond the point of practical caution to non-Dalish.

Again, on the slavery thing, that's Tevinter. Slaves,slaves,slaves. Elves can be magisters and slave-owners in Tevinter to. Its more of a magic vs mundane society than an elf vs human one. Not really appropriate to bring up elf-human racism in society using an example that has nothing to diw th elf-human racism, and everything to do with whether or not one is born with magic.

Prove that I exaggerated anything in my posts.Better yet prove that elves aren't treated like vermin because that's how human society has been depicted in regards to human/elf relations.

Vermin have no laws protecting them against murder. You've just restated that you were not only using the term vermin as hyperbole, but you meant it literally.

The fact that you've taken the stance that any human can murder an elf at any time and suffer no repurcussions, doesn't even require my rebuttal. That is so clearly head cannon to everyone else, that I'm not going to bother trying to disprove it.

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything.Elves are treated like crap in human society and I can list various things from the games themselves to prove it.The City Elf origin,the various comments NPCs make in regards to elves and so on.

You brought up elves being slaves. You conveniently forgot to mention that the only nation in which elves are slaves, are one in which humans are also slaves.

You claimed earlier that elves are treated like vermin. People can't casually murder elves, so that's a blatant falsehood. Yes, people with sufficient political power can kill elves, but people with sufficient political power can kill anyone and get away with it.

Now you've shifted the goalposts to simply saying that elves are treated like second-class citizens. Guess what, I've been saying that all along.

You were the one who claimed that elves were exclusively slaves and servants in human society. That's blatantly false.


The Dalish on the other hand are full-on isolationist master race types. Some of them are exceptions to this, but the specific culture that identifies as Dalish seems to be about excluding anyone who is not like them. At least human societies, as racist as they are, accept outsiders into their midst.

Does the Denerim Alienage Purge ring any bells?And I love how you say my claim is false when the elves themselves can't get any jobs and are forced to be servants just to make money.If anything you are making false claims against the Dalish by saying they are this and that without any proof to back it up.

Forced to be servants eh?

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elren

Must be a human cosplaying. Again, I could scour the games, but that's just the one I remember off the top of my head.

What purge are you referring to?

The Purge that results from the events of the city elf orgin story.

The Local Arl's son kidnaps some elves, He either ultimately is slain by the PC or left to rot by the PC after accepting a deal and a bribe. The entire event however is turned on its head once Arl Howe is appointed Arl of Denirim and leads a brutal purge in relitation for the "Murder". If the Arl's Son Survived however he is secertly Imprisioned by Howe and the purge carried out anyway.

The reasoning behind it is relatively vague but it was likely a PR stunt to get the Nobility of Denirim to support Howe in the Interim after Ostogar.

So i would agrue that many purges in history were carried out because people of importance were murdered, even within DA. Agruing it was based more so on race rather then the apparent Murder i would say is...Conjectural Spectulative Reasoning at best, given that had Humans murdered high nobility within his own city they likely would have been put to torch much the same.

The difference is nobody batted a eye when elves are murdered and raped ,yet I bet if it were human women there would've a lynch mob busting down Vaugh's door ready to kill him.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

What purge are you referring to? 

The purge in Denerim where the Alienage elves are brought into line, with men, women, and children being killed en mass, as we see with the massacre at the orphanage.

This is a society where one cared about elven women being abducted in broad daylight in Denerim, or elven children being murdered in Kirkwall. It's not exactly surprising, especially given how Duncan notes that it's hard to convince humans to discard racism when they've lived their lives seeing elves as less than people.

I haven't played DA:O in a while and can't seem to locate what you're referring to with google. Do you know where I could find info on that?

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

True, everyone is flawed, including the Dalish. 

That said, I find the Elvhen interesting; somewhat reminiscent of the Taino people. I do find it appealing that the People never surrendered their heritage or religion, despite the overwhelming odds against them. I'm hoping for a bona fide Dalish protagonist in Inquisition - elven views about the Beyond, spirits (rather than Spirits and Demons, aka the First Children of the Maker), the choice to believe in the Creators, and the option to believe in the Dalish historical account of the fall of the Dales.

I agree completely. Like I said in my first post in this thread, I'd love to learn more about the Dalish. The good, the bad, the ugly and the interesting.

And I also agree that the Dalish defiance is part of what makes them interesting. Who does not like an underdog that refuses to give up, after all. I just like when things are complex. Part of why I want to see so much more of the Dalish flaws. Their lore, their history and their characters make them interesting. But their flaws make them oh so much deeper. 

Also, out of curiosity... why Taino specifically? I can think of a large number of peoples the Dalish correspond to, so why them? 

I have some Taino ancestry, so I suppose the plight of the People strikes a personal cord with me. I'd also like to delve more into the nuances and culture of the Dalish.

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...
The difference is nobody batted a eye when elves are murdered and raped ,yet I bet if it were human women there would've a lynch mob busting down Vaugh's door ready to kill him.

Possible. On the other hand its also very possible there wouldn't have been. Nobles raping and murdering people has occurred plenty of times in human history independent of racism being involved. 

I wonder who would be suicidal enough to try and kill a noble though over someone else's daughters. Not like the average serf in Fereldan appears to be armed.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The purge in Denerim where the Alienage elves are brought into line, with men, women, and children being killed en mass, as we see with the massacre at the orphanage.

This is a society where one cared about elven women being abducted in broad daylight in Denerim, or elven children being murdered in Kirkwall. It's not exactly surprising, especially given how Duncan notes that it's hard to convince humans to discard racism when they've lived their lives seeing elves as less than people.

I haven't played DA:O in a while and can't seem to locate what you're referring to with google. Do you know where I could find info on that? 

The Denerim Alienage. You can enter the orphanage with Ser Otto.