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[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

That's funny..because in human society elves are either slaves or servants.Guess who I believe are the bigger racists of the two groups?

Factually inaccurate. There are many elves in human society who are neither slaves nor servants.

Even in Kirkwall. Rich merchant elf dude who offers you money to kill the crazy guy.

Oh yeah, one rich elf in a sea of elven poverty that covers every human nation clearly constitutes "many." And indicates equal socio-economic standing and opportunities.

So, some elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants.

No, most elves are slaves and servants. Some humans are slaves and servants. That's the point.

Congrats, you've conclude that elves are second-class citizens. I've mentioned that so many times I'm getting tired of it.

Cjones believes elves are treated as vermin. Go back and read his posts. He's grossly exaggerated how humans have treated elves, not to mention extrapolating what a human noble has done to the entire race(as I pointed out before we could do the same with Zathrian, but that's completely idiotic, Zathrian is no more representative of the Dalish then a few human nobles represent all of humanity) to justify Dalish being hostile beyond the point of practical caution to non-Dalish.

Again, on the slavery thing, that's Tevinter. Slaves,slaves,slaves. Elves can be magisters and slave-owners in Tevinter to. Its more of a magic vs mundane society than an elf vs human one. Not really appropriate to bring up elf-human racism in society using an example that has nothing to diw th elf-human racism, and everything to do with whether or not one is born with magic.

Prove that I exaggerated anything in my posts.Better yet prove that elves aren't treated like vermin because that's how human society has been depicted in regards to human/elf relations.

Vermin have no laws protecting them against murder. You've just restated that you were not only using the term vermin as hyperbole, but you meant it literally.

The fact that you've taken the stance that any human can murder an elf at any time and suffer no repurcussions, doesn't even require my rebuttal. That is so clearly head cannon to everyone else, that I'm not going to bother trying to disprove it.

Sure,dismiss my arguements as head canon because I don't care.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The purge in Denerim where the Alienage elves are brought into line, with men, women, and children being killed en mass, as we see with the massacre at the orphanage.

This is a society where one cared about elven women being abducted in broad daylight in Denerim, or elven children being murdered in Kirkwall. It's not exactly surprising, especially given how Duncan notes that it's hard to convince humans to discard racism when they've lived their lives seeing elves as less than people.

I haven't played DA:O in a while and can't seem to locate what you're referring to with google. Do you know where I could find info on that? 

The Denerim Alienage. You can enter the orphanage with Ser Otto.

 

I know what the Denerim Alienage is. I just can't find mention of it being purged.

The thing with Ser Otto had to do with demons didn' it?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I believe the demons were there because the veil became thin from all the bloodshed. I think the guard outside the Alienage mentions a purge.

[Sir JK]

Vandicus wrote...

I know what the Denerim Alienage is. I just can't find mention of it being purged.

The thing with Ser Otto had to do with demons didn' it?

If you talk to the guard that guards the Alienage gate prior to it opening he'll mention it.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

The "master race" types is because of how they treat non-Dalish elves. They seem to firmly believe that they are superior to city elves. Wanting all city elves to be Dalish in order to be accepted is no different from the Chantry trying to force Andrastianism on to them.

The Alienage elves converted to a human religion that the Dalish believe caused the war and the loss of their homeland; their history (and the elven Warden) express the invasion of the Dales occurred because the Elvhen wouldn't convert to the Chantry. It's not surprising this is an issue for the Dalish, who dealt with centuries of trials and tribulations to keep their culture and religion.

Vandicus wrote...

Again, I've got no problem with the city elves rebelling in Orlais(especially if they're less racist than the current lot ruling). The Dalish on the other hand, with the exception of the ones who are tolerant of non-Dalish, don't really warrant any reverenace. They don't deserved to be hunted down and killed either, but they're still ****s. They have every right to be intolerant asses. I'm not going to pretend that they're crusaders for social justic though. 

Some Alienage elves also have derogatory views about the Dalish, via the City Elf Origin.

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not ignoring anything.Elves are treated like crap in human society and I can list various things from the games themselves to prove it.The City Elf origin,the various comments NPCs make in regards to elves and so on.

You brought up elves being slaves. You conveniently forgot to mention that the only nation in which elves are slaves, are one in which humans are also slaves.

You claimed earlier that elves are treated like vermin. People can't casually murder elves, so that's a blatant falsehood. Yes, people with sufficient political power can kill elves, but people with sufficient political power can kill anyone and get away with it.

Now you've shifted the goalposts to simply saying that elves are treated like second-class citizens. Guess what, I've been saying that all along.

You were the one who claimed that elves were exclusively slaves and servants in human society. That's blatantly false.


The Dalish on the other hand are full-on isolationist master race types. Some of them are exceptions to this, but the specific culture that identifies as Dalish seems to be about excluding anyone who is not like them. At least human societies, as racist as they are, accept outsiders into their midst.

Does the Denerim Alienage Purge ring any bells?And I love how you say my claim is false when the elves themselves can't get any jobs and are forced to be servants just to make money.If anything you are making false claims against the Dalish by saying they are this and that without any proof to back it up.

Forced to be servants eh?

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elren

Must be a human cosplaying. Again, I could scour the games, but that's just the one I remember off the top of my head.

What purge are you referring to?

The Purge that results from the events of the city elf orgin story.

The Local Arl's son kidnaps some elves, He either ultimately is slain by the PC or left to rot by the PC after accepting a deal and a bribe. The entire event however is turned on its head once Arl Howe is appointed Arl of Denirim and leads a brutal purge in relitation for the "Murder". If the Arl's Son Survived however he is secertly Imprisioned by Howe and the purge carried out anyway.

The reasoning behind it is relatively vague but it was likely a PR stunt to get the Nobility of Denirim to support Howe in the Interim after Ostogar.

So i would agrue that many purges in history were carried out because people of importance were murdered, even within DA. Agruing it was based more so on race rather then the apparent Murder i would say is...Conjectural Spectulative Reasoning at best, given that had Humans murdered high nobility within his own city they likely would have been put to torch much the same.

The difference is nobody batted a eye when elves are murdered and raped ,yet I bet if it were human women there would've a lynch mob busting down Vaugh's door ready to kill him.

It could be that the fact that only Witnesses to Vaugh's crimes were those already in his Father's pockets and furthermore that doesn't excuse the reaction from being less valid.

Murdering a High Noblemen is pure sucide for a community and agruing against that is ridicious. It wouldn't have mattered had the Horde that breached his estate had been Human or Elven by the point if he was murdered, Justice would have to be meted out restore order.

Again VERY Feudalstic Society Thedas is.

Mass Purges are a relatively common means of restoring order to settlements within our own History in response to such events.

[dragondreamer]

Vandicus wrote...


Even in Kirkwall. Rich merchant elf dude who offers you money to kill the crazy guy.

Do you remember *why* the rich merchant elf dude offers you money to kill the crazy guy?  He tells you himself that his money doesn't matter, he'll never get justice through legal means because he's an elf.  Even being the magistrate's son, it's unlikely that the serial killer would have been allowed to continue killing children as long as he did if the victims had been human.

And this idea that the Dalish are the most racist people ever because they're rude (horrors) is really short-sighted.  The dwarves not only believe themselves superior to other races, they're as isolationist as the Dalish, and have an oppressive caste system among their own people.  The Qunari believe in forcing everyone to assimilate to their culture and beliefs, and if you won't they'll lobotimize you.  The Andrastian humans aren't much better than the Qunari in that respect.  Most City elves have little respect for the Dalish, but the humans they live among are a far greater concern for them than some elves they rarely see not understanding them.  At least the Dalish welcome City elves if they choose to go live with them.  If a City elf wasn't interested in joining their culture, I can't imagine why they'd bother running away to join them in the first place.  Alienage culture is exactly that, if they wanted to keep living like that, they'd stay there.

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...

You know, if the roles were reversed and elves were the dominant race that conquered, enslaved, subjugated, and barely tolerated humans for centuries, I don't think we'd even be having this argument. Most people would agree that elves were horrible tyrants and oppressive slavers, and would applaud nomadic human tribes for refusing to submit to elven rule and applaud them treating elves with distrust and contempt. Since humans are the dominant culture, I'm seeing a lot of excuses, rationalizations, victim-blaming, false analogies, etc.

The Dalish being racist isn't an excuse or a rationalization. It's a deeply held belief that, in a lot of ways, is central to their culture. Like their theories about immortality. The same as their beliefs about CEs, really. 

A lot of people in this thread are engaging in exactly the sort of behaviour you list. But the Dalish have a very serious darkside.

[KiwiQuiche]

So pretty much every race sucks and just support/help the one you like most.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Dalish being racist isn't an excuse or a rationalization. It's a deeply held belief that, in a lot of ways, is central to their culture. Like their theories about immortality. The same as their beliefs about CEs, really. 

A lot of people in this thread are engaging in exactly the sort of behaviour you list. But the Dalish have a very serious darkside.

Agreed. Dalish use the injustices against them as a reason to hold heir own racist views and behaviors. While partially deserved, it does absolutely nothing to help how others view them 1 as hostile, aggressive savages.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 janvier 2014 - 11:47 .

[Vandicus]

Faerunner wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I doubt that. In novelizations, for instance a fantasy series I recall where dragons ruled over humans(the compilation I have is titled "Legends of the Dragonrealm" by Richard A. Knaak), the radical equivalent of the Dalish who didn't tolerate dragons whatsoever are portrayed quite negatively, as impediments to progress. The rebel "heroes" end up building friendly relations with the dragons who are willing to do so.

Book =/= video game. Two different storytelling methods. Two different types of consumer engagement.

I'm talking about how players react to the slavers of humans, not just how authors choose to portray them. Considering so many players of human protagonists get morally outraged by and slaughter Dalish NPCs just for being a little rude to them, I can only imagine how they would react to elves systematically subjugating humanity.

Not all the humans in Thedas have a Dalish-level of hatred for elves.

Neither do the Dalish.
 

A no-compromise us or them attitude is precisely what makes the Dalish so disliked. I've got no problems with the City elves fighting against the Orlesian government. The Orlesian government is pretty much composed of d-bags. Good on them for fighting for their rights, hopefully not masaccreing schools full of children or committing ethnic genocide in the process.

What about riots in Denerim? 

It's okay to rebel against Orlesians because they go around oppressing other human nations, but it's wrong to rebel against the human nations that preach freedom but practice oppression (by withholding socioeconomic opportunities to keep starving masses so desperate for basic necessities they'll take whatever scut job they can to eat or make rent) because occasionally one elf can get lucky in a sea of poverty and injustice?

Speaking of which, the people who committed genocide against the elves are all dead. Not an excuse to go after modern humans.

But those that continue to commit crimes against elves, allow said crimes to go unpunished, and possibly enforce systematic subjugation deserve going after.

I don't know how you leapt to the conclusion that I particularly support the rulership of Fereldan, because I don't. AFAIK, the best that can be said of Fereldan is that it is not Orlais, and that the best that can be said of Orlais is that it is not Tevinter.

Also, agreed on the last bit. The current ones committing transgressions deserve punishment.



When do we ever get an opportunity to slaughter Dalish for being rude to us? I recall trying to talk one down who was trying to kill an ex-werewolf, and then her attacking me. I recall Marethari getting possessed by a demon, and there being a non-concilliatory route. I recall the option in DA:O to punish the whole tribe for Zathrian's folly, which they don't deserve. As annoying as I find most Dalish and their attitude, most of them don't deserve to die or anything particularly bad to happen to them. The ones who casually murder humans indiscriminately and without remorse do.

I think the anti-Dalish reaction has more to do with a general aversion towards any racism, especially hard-line sounding racism like the Dalish espouse, than a particular judgement in favor of the people who wrong elves in general. The reason I brought up the book series, was that it reflects a cultural mindset that rejects racism towards a population whose members have opressed humans.

[Master Warder Z_]

Faerunner wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I doubt that. In novelizations, for instance a fantasy series I recall where dragons ruled over humans(the compilation I have is titled "Legends of the Dragonrealm" by Richard A. Knaak), the radical equivalent of the Dalish who didn't tolerate dragons whatsoever are portrayed quite negatively, as impediments to progress. The rebel "heroes" end up building friendly relations with the dragons who are willing to do so.

Book =/= video game. Two different storytelling methods. Two different types of consumer engagement.

I'm talking about how players react to the slavers of humans, not just how authors choose to portray them. Considering so many players of human protagonists get morally outraged by and slaughter Dalish NPCs just for being a little rude to them, I can only imagine how they would react to elves systematically subjugating humanity.

Not all the humans in Thedas have a Dalish-level of hatred for elves.

Neither do the Dalish.

A no-compromise us or them attitude is precisely what makes the Dalish so disliked. I've got no problems with the City elves fighting against the Orlesian government. The Orlesian government is pretty much composed of d-bags. Good on them for fighting for their rights, hopefully not masaccreing schools full of children or committing ethnic genocide in the process.

What about riots in Denerim? The vigilante brothers in Kirkwall?

It's okay to rebel against Orlesians because they go around oppressing other human nations, but it's wrong to rebel against the human nations that preach freedom but practice oppression of an entire race (by withholding socioeconomic opportunities to keep starving masses so desperate for basic necessities they'll take whatever scut job they can get) because occasionally one elf can get lucky in a sea of poverty and injustice? (Which they can also do in Orlais, come to think of it, if Leliana's comment is any indication.)

Speaking of which, the people who committed genocide against the elves are all dead. Not an excuse to go after modern humans.

But those that continue to commit crimes against elves, allow said crimes to go unpunished, and possibly enforce systematic subjugation deserve going after.

Again people seem to ignore that Basically Every one is in the same boat in Thedas if you overlook Racial Restrictions.

The only Method of Humans to escape a "Sea of Poverty" And overcome "Injustice" is either to born into Money or Aquire titles and coin themselves, Usually through Military Service.

So my Agrument as usual remains the same; Why Harp against the Injustices of Elves when the Situation for the Majority of humanity is roughly Similar? 

Sure you can agrue that even poor Humans aren't all shacked up together, although they likely are considering that Serfs unless if they are housed within their Masters Estates and Keeps and what have you likely would be within Poor districts of their various cities.  You could agrue that they have more freedom to escape their poverty but considering again their only real legitimate choice for it belongs to joining an National or Regional military and hoping to acheive notable rank or be knighted isn't exactly a high proablity for a levy troop.

So If you truely want to have the target for the Subjugation of the Elves? Its the same name for the system that did it to Humanity.

Its called Feudalism.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The City Elf history acknowledges their second class status, while the Dalish history talks about the Alienage elves who submitted to human rule and gave up their heritage to live in servitude to the humans.  

The CEs recognize that humans treat them as second class, but they don't see themselves as second-class. The Dalish see CEs as second class elves. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Again people seem to ignore that Basically Every one is in the same boat in Thedas if you overlook Racial Restrictions.

The only Method of Humans to escape a "Sea of Poverty" And overcome "Injustice" is either to born into Money or Aquire titles and coin themselves, Usually through Military Service.

So my Agrument as usual remains the same; Why Harp against the Injustices of Elves when the Situation for the Majority of humanity is roughly Similar? 

Sure you can agrue that even poor Humans aren't all shacked up together, although they likely are considering that Serfs unless if they are housed within their Masters Estates and Keeps and what have you likely would be within Poor districts of their various cities.  You could agrue that they have more freedom to escape their poverty but considering again their only real legitimate choice for it belongs to joining an National or Regional military and hoping to acheive notable rank or be knighted isn't exactly a high proablity for a levy troop.

So If you truely want to have the target for the Subjugation of the Elves? Its the same name for the system that did it to Humanity.

Its called Feudalism.

Isn't that like saying everyone everywhere in Thedas is in exactly the same boat if you overlook social status, wealth and power? Race is a significant part of any given person's circumstance.

The average joes might not have it great but Elves do have it worse off than most humans.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 janvier 2014 - 11:53 .

[Vandicus]

dragondreamer wrote...

Vandicus wrote...


Even in Kirkwall. Rich merchant elf dude who offers you money to kill the crazy guy.

Do you remember *why* the rich merchant elf dude offers you money to kill the crazy guy?  He tells you himself that his money doesn't matter, he'll never get justice through legal means because he's an elf.  Even being the magistrate's son, it's unlikely that the serial killer would have been allowed to continue killing children as long as he did if the victims had been human.

And this idea that the Dalish are the most racist people ever because they're rude (horrors) is really short-sighted.  The dwarves not only believe themselves superior to other races, they're as isolationist as the Dalish, and have an oppressive caste system among their own people.  The Qunari believe in forcing everyone to assimilate to their culture and beliefs, and if you won't they'll lobotimize you.  The Andrastian humans aren't much better than the Qunari in that respect.  Most City elves have little respect for the Dalish, but the humans they live among are a far greater concern for them than some elves they rarely see not understanding them.  At least the Dalish welcome City elves if they choose to go live with them.  If a City elf wasn't interested in joining their culture, I can't imagine why they'd bother running away to join them in the first place.  Alienage culture is exactly that, if they wanted to keep living like that, they'd stay there.

Second-class citizen status. Not vermin status. My argument against cjones has been that the elves are not in fact literally treated like vermin in human cities.

Qunari are worse than Tevinter.

Dwarves don't seem to get randomly violent and sociopathic towards non-Dwarves and threaten them for their amusement. That doesn't mean I like the attitudes of Harrowmant, I just believe that they aren't as bad about it as the Dalish

We've both agreed at this point that the Dalish are racist. I'd also like to observe that they are more so than the average human appears to be, sometimes to the point of violence or near violence.

But really, my point has been that contrary to the thread's premise, the Dalish don't really deserve an image boost. Their general attitude is not one that should be encouraged. They aren't crusaders for social justice for elves as some people try to portray them. The city elves struggle far more to achieve equality in society than the Dalish. The Dalish try to actively avoid dealing with the issue.

[Vandicus]

Faerunner wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

You know, if the roles were reversed and elves were the dominant race that conquered, enslaved, subjugated, and barely tolerated humans for centuries, I don't think we'd even be having this argument. Most people would agree that elves were horrible tyrants and oppressive slavers, and would applaud nomadic human tribes for refusing to submit to elven rule and applaud them treating elves with distrust and contempt. Since humans are the dominant culture, I'm seeing a lot of excuses, rationalizations, victim-blaming, false analogies, etc.

The Dalish being racist isn't an excuse or a rationalization. It's a deeply held belief that, in a lot of ways, is central to their culture. Like their theories about immortality. The same as their beliefs about CEs, really. 

A lot of people in this thread are engaging in exactly the sort of behaviour you list. But the Dalish have a very serious darkside.

As does every culture, but I don't see masses of players clamoring to condemn the Orzammarians or Andrastians the way they are the Dalish. As dragondreamer said, the Dalish being a little rude is somehow a worse crime than centuries of systematic subjugation, hate crimes, etc?

This thread is sugggesting that the Dalish deserve a more sympathetic portrayal. Fact of the matter, is they don't. No one is asking for Orzammarians or Andrastians to have a more sympathetic portrayal.

[In Exile]

dragondreamer wrote...

And this idea that the Dalish are the most racist people ever because they're rude (horrors) is really short-sighted.

Absolutely. But it doesn't change the fact that, out of all the groups in Thedas, the Dalish are the group that has beliefs most like IRL hardline racist groups. Views about racial purity and characterizations of non-humans as blighted vermin is integral to their culture and their beliefs. 

The dwarves not only believe themselves superior to other races, they're as isolationist as the Dalish, and have an oppressive caste system among their own people.  

The dwarves are an interesting example, because no one actually sides with the nobles as being justified in treating (or viewing) the casteless like they do. I think that's why we don't really see this topic come up very much. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Honestly I think the greatest racism characters we seem to have encountered are from humans. Vaughn is the only one that I remember implying that another race aren't people. I also think people are greatly overstating how central any xenophobic beliefs the Dalish have are to their culture.

Velanna was probably the most excessive example and she was essentially exiled for it. Have we ever seen a Dalish actively avoid contact with a human becuase they thought they'd be reinfected with the human germs that cost him immortality or something?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:01 .

[Vandicus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Honestly I think the greatest racism characters we seem to have encountered are from humans. Vaughn is the only one that I remember implying that another race aren't people.

Funnily enough, we haven't had a thread requesting that we portray Vaughn and his fellow d-bags less negatively.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Vandicus wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Honestly I think the greatest racism characters we seem to have encountered are from humans. Vaughn is the only one that I remember implying that another race aren't people.

Funnily enough, we haven't had a thread requesting that we portray Vaughn and his fellow d-bags less negatively.

They aren't comparable.

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
As does every culture, but I don't see masses of players clamoring to condemn the Orzammarians or Andrastians the way they are the Dalish. As dragondreamer said, the Dalish being a little rude is somehow a worse crime than centuries of systematic subjugation, hate crimes, etc?

People condemn the Dalish for absurd reasons on completely unjustifiable grounds. The only reason I'm not carrying on a two-sided conversation is that I don't even know how to address "but the Dalish are rude arguments" with another other than "WTF?:unsure:". 

All I'm saying is that there are a lot of serious problems with what the Dalish believe. I very much feel for the oppression they suffer, but I have a hard time relating to their culture for that reason. Part of my problem with the Dalish flows more from their attitude toward the CEs (who I see as the 'true' elves and the future of the race/culture) than the humans (which, aside from their absolutely nutso views on immortality, are completely understandable given the destruction of their only two homes).