1258 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Honestly I think the greatest racism characters we seem to have encountered are from humans. Vaughn is the only one that I remember implying that another race aren't people.

Funnily enough, we haven't had a thread requesting that we portray Vaughn and his fellow d-bags less negatively.

Is that why you were arguing against the established setting of the DA world?Because someone wants to see the Dalish in a more positive light?

[Master Warder Z_]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Again people seem to ignore that Basically Every one is in the same boat in Thedas if you overlook Racial Restrictions.

The only Method of Humans to escape a "Sea of Poverty" And overcome "Injustice" is either to born into Money or Aquire titles and coin themselves, Usually through Military Service.

So my Agrument as usual remains the same; Why Harp against the Injustices of Elves when the Situation for the Majority of humanity is roughly Similar? 

Sure you can agrue that even poor Humans aren't all shacked up together, although they likely are considering that Serfs unless if they are housed within their Masters Estates and Keeps and what have you likely would be within Poor districts of their various cities.  You could agrue that they have more freedom to escape their poverty but considering again their only real legitimate choice for it belongs to joining an National or Regional military and hoping to acheive notable rank or be knighted isn't exactly a high proablity for a levy troop.

So If you truely want to have the target for the Subjugation of the Elves? Its the same name for the system that did it to Humanity.

Its called Feudalism.

Isn't that like saying everyone everywhere in Thedas is in exactly the same boat if you overlook social status, wealth and power? Race is a significant part of any given person's circumstance.

The average joes might not have it great but Elves do have it worse off than most humans.

That seems to be overlooking the point of the post but i will concede that the Alienages are likely comparable to most of the Slums that the Poorer Humans have to Dwell within, Considering they lack the Wealth of the Surface Dwarfs, The Titles of Human Nobility and the Wealth of Moderate Nobility but  my point remains.

You can gripe and complain all you wish about Thedas harping on the Downtrodden Elves but when it comes down to it? They are merely another Cog in the Machine of Fuedalism which again i will state, if you don't have Wealth or Titles you are going to be at the bottom of the barrel regardless of Race.

My point is, If you go past the whole agrument that "Elves are inferior citizens because they are elves!" It becomes clear in contrast that they are inferior in the current system because of their lack of means, but again 80% of Thedas lacks the means, Elves are merely another minority in the Lower Caste.

Sure Racism and Bigotry affect them, But the Social Divide is far more pressing then that, Considering that if you look at the System Thedas employs it becomes glaringly apparent that they are no more oppressed overly then the Common People of Thedas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Exile wrote...

All I'm saying is that there are a lot
of serious problems with what the Dalish believe. I very much feel for
the oppression they suffer, but I have a hard time relating to their
culture for that reason. Part of my problem with the Dalish flows more
from their attitude toward the CEs (who I see as the 'true' elves and
the future of the race/culture) than the humans (which, aside from their
absolutely nutso views on immortality, are completely understandable
given the destruction of their only two homes). 

Dalish don't have a single unified attitude towards city elves or much of anything really.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:05 .

[Vandicus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Honestly I think the greatest racism characters we seem to have encountered are from humans. Vaughn is the only one that I remember implying that another race aren't people.

Funnily enough, we haven't had a thread requesting that we portray Vaughn and his fellow d-bags less negatively.

They aren't comparable.

Are the Dalish not generally hard-line racists?

Did not Velanna and Zathrian indiscriminately murder humans believing it was ok because their victims were humans?

The Dalish are portrayed negatively because they are hard-line racists. Sort of hard to portray that in a positive light. No one is asking for other racist and isolationist factions to be portrayed more positively, why the Dalish?

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
Well, it's a Catch-22. Either the elves isolate themselves and die out. Or they integrate and die out.

It's not. Each elf has a right to decide his or her own identity for himself/herself.  What being an elf means is a queston that anyone who identifies as an elf has to define for themselves. 

Elves could abandon every aspect of their culture and still only marry and have children with people who are phsyiologically "elven" and so not die out, but whether that means anything is up to the elves themselves to determine. A group of them has no right to impose that on others. The idea that they could is just vile and abhorent. 

[Vandicus]

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Honestly I think the greatest racism characters we seem to have encountered are from humans. Vaughn is the only one that I remember implying that another race aren't people.

Funnily enough, we haven't had a thread requesting that we portray Vaughn and his fellow d-bags less negatively.

Is that why you were arguing against the established setting of the DA world?Because someone wants to see the Dalish in a more positive light?

Established setting is the elves are literally viewed as vermin in the eyes of the law. Righttttt. Here, I'll throw you a bone, find a single codex entry establishing that the elves have no laws protecting them from murder or theft, and establishing that elves cannot hold property(despite some elves clearly owning property), and I'll acknowledge your stance that elves are literally treated as vermin in the eyes of the law in Thedas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Vandicus wrote...

Are the Dalish not generally hard-line racists?

No. Certainly not more than humans are. If you count the number of Dalish NPCs that act explicitly racist

Vandicus wrote...
Did not Velanna and Zathrian indiscriminately murder humans believing it was ok because their victims were humans?

Velanna was an outcast for exactly that reason. If you meet the rest of her clan they have exactly the opposite reaction towards humans. And Zathrian was blinded by rage about the death of his daughter. It wasn't really about the fact that they were human. In his mind he considered it continuation of his revenge against the people who raped his daughter.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:09 .

[cjones91]

Vandicus wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Honestly I think the greatest racism characters we seem to have encountered are from humans. Vaughn is the only one that I remember implying that another race aren't people.

Funnily enough, we haven't had a thread requesting that we portray Vaughn and his fellow d-bags less negatively.

They aren't comparable.

Are the Dalish not generally hard-line racists?

Did not Velanna and Zathrian indiscriminately murder humans believing it was ok because their victims were humans?

The Dalish are portrayed negatively because they are hard-line racists. Sort of hard to portray that in a positive light. No one is asking for other racist and isolationist factions to be portrayed more positively, why the Dalish?

Zathrian killed the humans who murdered his and raped his daughter,after the humans responsible were dead he should've undid the curse but you are completely misrepresenting the actual events in order to portray the Dalish as rabid hating racists.

[Seboist]

The only boost the Dalish need is to a noose at the gallows.

[Vandicus]

MasterScribe wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Absolutely. But it doesn't change the fact that, out of all the groups in Thedas, the Dalish are the group that has beliefs most like IRL hardline racist groups. Views about racial purity and characterizations of non-humans as blighted vermin is integral to their culture and their beliefs.

Except most hardline racist groups are actually part of the dominant race of the particular society and actively commit violence against minorities.

Elves are NOT the dominant race of Thedas and are a minority that tries to isolate itself, instead of seeking out human communities and actively committing genocide against them. They commit violence against SOME humans that stroll into or attack their clans.

Well that's not historically accurate in real life. Racial minorities have oppressed majority groups plenty of times. IIRC Saddam's regime was a pro-Sunni in a country where they made up only a fraction of the population.

The Dalish resort to violence more quickly than humans would. If Dalish entered a human city, Merill for example, they would not be attacked on sight. Unlike say a Dalish reaction to a human walking through a forest that the Dalish don't even rule as a nation.

[Rotward]

The dalish need to worry less about their dead ancestors, and more about their options for the future. That said, they're portrayed no worse than the humans, dwarves, or qunari. The only difference is that they're a smaller faction.

Modifié par Rotward, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:11 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Rotward wrote...

The dalish need to worry less about their dead ancestors, and more about their options for the future. That said, they're portrayed no worse than the humans, dwarves, or qunari. The only difference is that they're a smaller faction.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Vandicus wrote...

The Dalish resort to violence more quickly than humans would. If Dalish entered a human city, Merill for example, they would not be attacked on sight. Unlike say a Dalish reaction to a human walking through a forest that the Dalish don't even rule as a nation.

This is a generalization. Not all humans are attacked on sight around Dalish camps. Merrill also had to hide who she was while in Kirkwall. Dalish clans also have more reason to be wary of outsiders because they are much more vulnerable.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:13 .

[Vandicus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Are the Dalish not generally hard-line racists?

No. Certainly not more than humans are.

Vandicus wrote...
Did not Velanna and Zathrian indiscriminately murder humans believing it was ok because their victims were humans?

Velanna was an outcast for exactly that reason. And Zathrian was blinded by rage about the death of his daughter. It wasn't really about the fact that they were human.

The average random human serf does not appear to be overly racist towards city elves. Racist slurs are not the default method of communicating with each other. In some places, Lothering for example, they seem to live basically as equals. A human living amongst the Dalish, on the other hand, seems inconceivable. They don't accept anyone who doesn't share their culture. Humans on the other hand, trade with and live alongside dwarves, elves, other human nations, and even the Qunari as a simple matter of course. That's not to say that they aren't frequently casually racist, just that they aren't trying to get rid of them.

Do you believe Zathrian would've done the same to an entire elven tribe for one of their members murdering his daughter?

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
Except most hardline racist groups are actually part of the dominant race of the particular society and actively commit violence against minorities.

That's not entirely accurate. but since we're talking about English speaking countries, yes, white supremacists are the dominant cultural group. But these loons aren't going to stop holding on to their vile beliefs when "white" people no longer make up the dominant cultural group of English-speaking NA in the next few decades. 

Do their views suddenly become more OK if they're in the minority? That's nuts. 

Elves are NOT the dominant race of Thedas and are a minority that tries to isolate itself, instead of seeking out human communities and actively committing genocide against them. They commit violence against SOME humans that stroll into or attack their clans. 

Their beliefs don't stop being about racial purity just because they're isolating themselves, just like the humans don't stop being racists just because they don't bother to think (or act on) oppressing elves personally. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:14 .

[Vandicus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The Dalish resort to violence more quickly than humans would. If Dalish entered a human city, Merill for example, they would not be attacked on sight. Unlike say a Dalish reaction to a human walking through a forest that the Dalish don't even rule as a nation.

This is a generalization. Not all humans are attacked on sight around Dalish camps. Merrill also had to hide who she was while in Kirkwall. Dalish clans also have more reason to be wary of outsiders because they are much more vulnerable.

Do the Dalish deserve any special praise though?

Also, it seems to me that the Dalish go beyond simple caution. Opening up with slurs and telling a person to go away is not simple caution. Besides, its not like the locals are unaware of their presence. Generally the ruling powers let the Dalish travel where they please. Two or three humans doesn't exactly represent a serious threat to a tribe.

[cjones91]

Vandicus is lucky my computer won't let me copy and paste things otherwise I would show him how wrong he is.Can someone show him the article where Mr.Gaider had intended for the elves to be subject to discrimination or poverty in human society?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Vandicus wrote...

The average random human serf does not appear to be overly racist towards city elves. Racist slurs are not the default method of communicating with each other. In some places, Lothering for example, they seem to live basically as equals. A human living amongst the Dalish, on the other hand, seems inconceivable. They don't accept anyone who doesn't share their culture. Humans on the other hand, trade with and live alongside dwarves, elves, other human nations, and even the Qunari as a simple matter of course. That's not to say that they aren't frequently casually racist, just that they aren't trying to get rid of them.

Do you believe Zathrian would've done the same to an entire elven tribe for one of their members murdering his daughter?

We hear plenty of stories about racism from the average joes against city elves. Elves are not legally restricted to the Alienage but they stay there because any attempt to move up in the world invariable results in the humans looting and burning their new home and chasing them out if they are lucky. The City Elf's bride to be is from Highever and she says it's actually friendlier in Denerim because it's larger and individual elves attract less attention from the humans.

As I recall, Aveline also mentions that elves live in stables or something in Lothering.

I hardly think a group of bandits is a fair comparison to an entire clan of elves but say if the bandits were multiracial (such as the ones that killed the Dalish Warden's father) I believe he would treat them all the same.

[KC_Prototype]

**** the elves! Humans are better!

[Vandicus]

MasterScribe wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Well that's not historically accurate in real life. Racial minorities have oppressed majority groups plenty of times. IIRC Saddam's regime was a pro-Sunni in a country where they made up only a fraction of the population.

That's not the same thing. Sunni Muslims govern most Middle East countries, which are mostly majority-Sunni.

Elves govern...nothing. They have no nation-state. AND are a minority.

The Dalish resort to violence more quickly than humans would. If Dalish entered a human city, Merill for example, they would not be attacked on sight. Unlike say a Dalish reaction to a human walking through a forest that the Dalish don't even rule as a nation.

Well if the humans would let them build a nation-state with actual laws....

Elves govern their own tribes, regardless of not having land.

Humans don't even let other humans live freely. Rulership is determined by conquest right now, and the system of governance used is feudalism. If the Dalish want to take over Fereldan, and were't racist about it, they'd have my full support. City elves might succeed in doing exactly that in Orlais. If their rulership were just as racist, then we'd have the same problem again of needing to replace it.

Back to my earlier theory that elves are actually simply another ethnicity of humans, there's no real reason for any special rulership power or land being held by members of elves or any other denomination of humans. The Orlesians treated Fereldans much the same way when they ruled. Ideally all of the racism would be eliminated.

[Rotward]

Vandicus wrote...

The Dalish resort to violence more quickly than humans would. If Dalish entered a human city, Merill for example, they would not be attacked on sight. Unlike say a Dalish reaction to a human walking through a forest that the Dalish don't even rule as a nation.

I'm not going to speak to the right or wrong of it, but I see why the Dalish are hostile to humans. The Dalish grow up hearing about how they used to rule this continent, live for thousands of years, and had an advanced culture. Then the Humans came and enslaved them, twice. Even now, elves whether city or dalish are raped and disenfranchised at every opportunity. Tevinter still enslaves elves to this day. 

The Dalish have every reason to be hostile toward humans. Even if many humans are neutral to the elves, that's not what they learn growing up. They don't hear about how it's just Tevinter, a group hated even by other humans, that still enslaves elves. The Dalish llearn that Humans enslaved them before, enslave others of their kind now, and oh look there's a human. 

cjones91 wrote...

Vandicus is lucky my computer won't let me copy and paste things otherwise I would show him how wrong he is.Can someone show him the article where Mr.Gaider had intended for the elves to be subject to discrimination or poverty in human society?

They are subject to descrimination and poverty in human society. See the alienages. I don't know what article you're refering to, though. 

Modifié par Rotward, 19 janvier 2014 - 05:11 .