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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Vandicus wrote...

Do the Dalish deserve any special praise though?

Also, it seems to me that the Dalish go beyond simple caution. Opening up with slurs and telling a person to go away is not simple caution. Besides, its not like the locals are unaware of their presence. Generally the ruling powers let the Dalish travel where they please. Two or three humans doesn't exactly represent a serious threat to a tribe.

Not by themselves no. But they could bring more trouble with them, like those guys that ran into Tamlen eventually did. Not that examples of Dalish killing humans who stumble across their camps are acceptable but they do have reason to be way of outsiders.

The Human powers and the templars usually leave the Dalish alone if they keep away from human settlements, they don't just let them go wherever they want.

[Vandicus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The average random human serf does not appear to be overly racist towards city elves. Racist slurs are not the default method of communicating with each other. In some places, Lothering for example, they seem to live basically as equals. A human living amongst the Dalish, on the other hand, seems inconceivable. They don't accept anyone who doesn't share their culture. Humans on the other hand, trade with and live alongside dwarves, elves, other human nations, and even the Qunari as a simple matter of course. That's not to say that they aren't frequently casually racist, just that they aren't trying to get rid of them.

Do you believe Zathrian would've done the same to an entire elven tribe for one of their members murdering his daughter?

We hear plenty of stories about racism from the average joes against city elves. Elves are not legally restricted to the Alienage but they stay there because any attempt to move up in the world invariable results in the humans looting and burning their new home and chasing them out if they are lucky. The City Elf's bride to be is from Highever and she says it's actually friendlier in Denerim because it's larger and individual elves attract less attention from the humans.

As I recall, Aveline also mentions that elves live in stables or something in Lothering.

I hardly think a group of bandits is a fair comparison to an entire clan of elves but say if the bandits were multiracial (such as the ones that killed the Dalish Warden's father) I believe he would treat them all the same.

I compare Zathrian's attack because it was essentially indiscriminately targetting humans. Elves would not be turned into werewolves, only humans.

I've generally used the term second-class citizens to refer to how elves are generally treated in this thread. That's still not as severe racism as actively driving away people of other races. Given, not all Dalish tribes are like that, and certainly not all Dalish. Their culture and society seems to be geared towards making its members think that way though.

[Vandicus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Do the Dalish deserve any special praise though?

Also, it seems to me that the Dalish go beyond simple caution. Opening up with slurs and telling a person to go away is not simple caution. Besides, its not like the locals are unaware of their presence. Generally the ruling powers let the Dalish travel where they please. Two or three humans doesn't exactly represent a serious threat to a tribe.

Not by themselves no. But they could bring more trouble with them, like those guys that ran into Tamlen eventually did. Not that examples of Dalish killing humans who stumble across their camps are acceptable but they do have reason to be way of outsiders.

The Human powers and the templars usually leave the Dalish alone if they keep away from human settlements, they don't just let them go wherever they want.

Individual Dalish can go where they want. I suspect small groups as well. The reason tribes are watched is because they're independent, albeit tiny, nations. It makes sense to be cautious of a very large group of armed individuals from another culture. The individual Tal-Vashoth mercenary doesn't get a special place dedicated to them in Kirkwall, the Qunari shipwrecked fleet does.

I just don't see anything particularly admirable and outstandingly moral about Dalish culture as compared to the rest of Thedas that deserves special attention. Though I don't think anyone aside from the Wardens has ever been potrayed all that positively in the games.

[dragondreamer]

Vandicus wrote...

We've both agreed at this point that the Dalish are racist. I'd also like to observe that they are more so than the average human appears to be, sometimes to the point of violence or near violence.

Actually, having played both elves and humans, I've found most Dalish to be civil to my Wardens.  My Cousland even got an apology at one point.  Sabre Clan was a lot more hostile, but I imagine having to sit on Sundermount for ages would make anyone grouchy.  Sabre also had Templars capturing the torturing their child hunters at one point if they took in Feynriel, which probably didn't help.  I'd also like to point out that the Dalish aren't a monolithic group, each Clan is different in their attittudes and are known for spending each Arlathvhen arguing among each other.

But really, my point has been that contrary to the thread's premise, the Dalish don't really deserve an image boost. Their general attitude is not one that should be encouraged. They aren't crusaders for social justice for elves as some people try to portray them. The city elves struggle far more to achieve equality in society than the Dalish. The Dalish try to actively avoid dealing with the issue.

Personally, I'd just like to see more of them in general, good and bad.  As I've pointed out before, all the peoples, or rather societies, of Thedas can be pretty bad.  Not all bad, but it's ugly.  That doesn't mean there isn't anything redeeming about them, or that there aren't some awesome individuals among all of them.  I wouldn't say I'm looking for an "image boost" for the Dalish, I'd just like to explore their lore and their situation more.  I would be surprised if there were no problematic elements to emerge, but that's life for you.  But all the obsessing over their flaws while ignoring the often greater flaws of other groups while using it to justify their mistreatment is something I can never agree with.  The Dalish and the elves in general do not have a history of oppression (that we know about), and we're basically lambasting them for rudeness and snobbishness.  There's a huge difference between that and actual oppression.

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
Humans in Dragon Age don't have to worry about a recessive race gene. Elves do.

That's just silly. There are lots of things that people could choose to do that would stop them from having kids. Like having a same-sex partner. Or just choosing not to have kids. 

[Hellion Rex]

Vandicus wrote...

Back to my earlier theory that elves are actually simply another ethnicity of humans, there's no real reason for any special rulership power or land being held by members of elves or any other denomination of humans. The Orlesians treated Fereldans much the same way when they ruled. Ideally all of the racism would be eliminated.

Considering the elves have been clearly around for a VERY long time, I think that your theory has quite a few holes. And why couldn't it be the opposite? That humans came from elves?

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...

You know, if the roles were reversed and elves were the dominant race that conquered, enslaved, subjugated, and barely tolerated humans for centuries, I don't think we'd even be having this argument. Most people would agree that elves were horrible tyrants and oppressive slavers, and would applaud nomadic human tribes for refusing to submit to elven rule and applaud them treating elves with distrust and contempt. Since humans are the dominant culture, I'm seeing a lot of excuses, rationalizations, victim-blaming, false analogies, etc.

You claim that people support the humans because they are the dominant culture. However, then you claim that if the roles were reversed, then people would still not support the elves despite them being the dominant culture.
Unless you mean in the real world in which case, humans are not the dominant culture, we are the only culture.

So, that post made no sense whatsoever.

[CybAnt1]

OK, look, lately I'm DA-Wiki guy, but understand that elven civilization has gone through two periods. Of course, as always, this is history that we can't positively be sure of.

The first, original homeland of the elves was in Elvhenan, where Arlathan stood, yes in the location of the Arlathan forest. There they seemed to have a "high" civilization with cities like that one.

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Elvhenan

It seems that at least according to elves, they started avoiding humans not just to avoid breeding with them, but apparently because even mere contact with humans seem to have cut off their immortality and changed them from immortal to having the same lifespans.

Elvenhan fell to the Tevinter Imperium, so they were forced to relocate to the Dales, their 2nd homeland. It seems that once arriving in the Dales, they adopted a purely "sylvan" woodland-based, nomadic lifestyle, becoming the "Dalish" we now know.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dales

The Dales, in turn, fell to the Chantry, and suffice to say the Dalish and the Chantry see this two different ways. Not only does the Chantry minimize the role elves played in Andraste's uprising. It seems humans view the conquest of the Dales as retribution for their failing to help in the 2nd Blight, but it seems the elves view it as the Chantry's "crack down" on worship of their elven pantheon.

Anyway, I think it's incorrect to say Dalish elves hate all humans, but they have had problems with at least two human factions/entities.

Also, I don't know that City Elves represent the (only) future for elven people, as the Dalish seem to be the only ones interested in reconstructing the lost knowledge of their 1st civilization, which as I said could contain things not just of use to their people, but possibly to all Thedans.

The eluvians, people. Among other things.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Do the Dalish deserve any special praise though?

Also, it seems to me that the Dalish go beyond simple caution. Opening up with slurs and telling a person to go away is not simple caution.

The Dalish are hunted and threatened; their religious views are even outlawed in Andrastian lands. Cautioning people away, given the circumstances, doesn't make the Dalish villainous.

Vandicus wrote...

Besides, its not like the locals are unaware of their presence. Generally the ruling powers let the Dalish travel where they please. Two or three humans doesn't exactly represent a serious threat to a tribe. 

With templars hunting them and Andrastians threatening them to convert, or else?

[Vandicus]

dragondreamer wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

We've both agreed at this point that the Dalish are racist. I'd also like to observe that they are more so than the average human appears to be, sometimes to the point of violence or near violence.

Actually, having played both elves and humans, I've found most Dalish to be civil to my Wardens.  My Cousland even got an apology at one point.  Sabre Clan was a lot more hostile, but I imagine having to sit on Sundermount for ages would make anyone grouchy.  Sabre also had Templars capturing the torturing their child hunters at one point if they took in Feynriel, which probably didn't help.  I'd also like to point out that the Dalish aren't a monolithic group, each Clan is different in their attittudes and are known for spending each Arlathvhen arguing among each other.

But really, my point has been that contrary to the thread's premise, the Dalish don't really deserve an image boost. Their general attitude is not one that should be encouraged. They aren't crusaders for social justice for elves as some people try to portray them. The city elves struggle far more to achieve equality in society than the Dalish. The Dalish try to actively avoid dealing with the issue.

Personally, I'd just like to see more of them in general, good and bad.  As I've pointed out before, all the peoples, or rather societies, of Thedas can be pretty bad.  Not all bad, but it's ugly.  That doesn't mean there isn't anything redeeming about them, or that there aren't some awesome individuals among all of them.  I wouldn't say I'm looking for an "image boost" for the Dalish, I'd just like to explore their lore and their situation more.  I would be surprised if there were no problematic elements to emerge, but that's life for you.  But all the obsessing over their flaws while ignoring the often greater flaws of other groups while using it to justify their mistreatment is something I can never agree with.  The Dalish and the elves in general do not have a history of oppression (that we know about), and we're basically lambasting them for rudeness and snobbishness.  There's a huge difference between that and actual oppression.

I wouldn't mind seeing more of them. I'd also like to see a lot more of the Qunari and Tevinter, though I believe both to be very oppressive. Orlesians not so much. Despite my French ancestry, I don't really like many French things besides the pastries.

As for criticizing them for being rude and snobbish, I've said that they're ****s, which they frequently are, racist, which they frequently are, and sometimes unnecessarily and irrationally violent. They're have an annoying superiority complex towards city elves. I've also mention though, that they don't deserve to die or having anything particularly bad happen to them. Being a jerk doesn't qualify one for slavery or the chopping block. I just think that their attitude is presented negatively precisely because it deserves to be presented negatively.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

You know, if the roles were reversed and elves were the dominant race that conquered, enslaved, subjugated, and barely tolerated humans for centuries, I don't think we'd even be having this argument. Most people would agree that elves were horrible tyrants and oppressive slavers, and would applaud nomadic human tribes for refusing to submit to elven rule and applaud them treating elves with distrust and contempt. Since humans are the dominant culture, I'm seeing a lot of excuses, rationalizations, victim-blaming, false analogies, etc.

You claim that people support the humans because they are the dominant culture. However, then you claim that if the roles were reversed, then people would still not support the elves despite them being the dominant culture.
Unless you mean in the real world in which case, humans are not the dominant culture, we are the only culture.

So, that post made no sense whatsoever.

I think what FaeRunner is getting at is that people condemn the elves for things like wanting their homeland back and sweeping the opression they go through under the rug because they are elves.However if the roles were reversed and humans were the ones being subjugated and wanting to take their home back then many people would support them.

Modifié par cjones91, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:41 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Do the Dalish deserve any special praise though?

Also, it seems to me that the Dalish go beyond simple caution. Opening up with slurs and telling a person to go away is not simple caution.

The Dalish are hunted and threatened; their religious views are even outlawed in Andrastian lands. Cautioning people away, given the circumstances, doesn't make the Dalish villainous.

Vandicus wrote...

Besides, its not like the locals are unaware of their presence. Generally the ruling powers let the Dalish travel where they please. Two or three humans doesn't exactly represent a serious threat to a tribe. 

With templars hunting them and Andrastians threatening them to convert, or else?

We were referring to the nations themselves, not to mention it seems that templars and the Chantry don't devote that much effort to going after the Dalish nowadays.

Every group in Thedas has had someone from every other group be a douche-bag to their members. Even the cheese-lovers club has been mistreated. Doesn't mean that it justifies being a douche-bag to other people who don't deserve it. 

All that being said, I understand why the Dalish are they way they are. Not like they choose to be born Dalish either. It doesn't mean their attitude needs to be portrayed positively though.

[dragondreamer]

In Exile wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...

And this idea that the Dalish are the most racist people ever because they're rude (horrors) is really short-sighted.

Absolutely. But it doesn't change the fact that, out of all the groups in Thedas, the Dalish are the group that has beliefs most like IRL hardline racist groups. Views about racial purity and characterizations of non-humans as blighted vermin is integral to their culture and their beliefs.

The Dalish have more in common with an endangered species than a racist group in that respect.  They will literally go extinct as a species if they interbreed with humans too much.  Even the City elves hold the same cultural views concerning reproduction, which is why alienage elves have arranged marriages and consider marrying outside their race to be a taboo.  Making more baby elves is considered a cultural duty by BOTH Dalish and City elves.

The dwarves not only believe themselves superior to other races, they're as isolationist as the Dalish, and have an oppressive caste system among their own people.  

The dwarves are an interesting example, because no one actually sides with the nobles as being justified in treating (or viewing) the casteless like they do. I think that's why we don't really see this topic come up very much. 

True, but the Dalish aren't oppressing anyone, so it's funny that they get most of the venom.  I'm not exactly onboard the Dalish isolationist idea myself, but aside from the immortality beliefs, I can see why they're extremely distrustful of humans.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish are hunted and threatened; their religious views are even outlawed in Andrastian lands. Cautioning people away, given the circumstances, doesn't make the Dalish villainous.

What exactly gives elves the right to "caution", more like "threaten", people away from any place? Is wherever they decide to set up shop suddenly private propriety?
What if a community relies upon a forest for firewood, pelts or food? Do the elves care?

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

You know, if the roles were reversed and elves were the dominant race that conquered, enslaved, subjugated, and barely tolerated humans for centuries, I don't think we'd even be having this argument. Most people would agree that elves were horrible tyrants and oppressive slavers, and would applaud nomadic human tribes for refusing to submit to elven rule and applaud them treating elves with distrust and contempt. Since humans are the dominant culture, I'm seeing a lot of excuses, rationalizations, victim-blaming, false analogies, etc.

You claim that people support the humans because they are the dominant culture. However, then you claim that if the roles were reversed, then people would still not support the elves despite them being the dominant culture.
Unless you mean in the real world in which case, humans are not the dominant culture, we are the only culture.

So, that post made no sense whatsoever.

I think what FaeRunner is getting at is that people condemn the elves for things like wanting their homeland back and sweeping the opression they go through under the rug because they are elves.However if the roles were reversed and humans were the ones being subjugated and wanting to take their home back then many people would support them.

I know what she is getting at, I'm saying her arguments make no sense.
She is just belittling people's arguments without any base for doing so.

[Master Warder Z_]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish are hunted and threatened; their religious views are even outlawed in Andrastian lands. Cautioning people away, given the circumstances, doesn't make the Dalish villainous.

What exactly gives elves the right to "caution", more like "threaten", people away from any place? Is wherever they decide to set up shop suddenly private propriety?
What if a community relies upon a forest for firewood, pelts or food? Do the elves care?

Probably not, But from what i have witnessed within DA they tend to avoid Heavily Human trafficked areas.

But i would assume if they did come into conflict with Humanity over Resources the Pointy eared Gypsies would flee.

[In Exile]

MasterScribe wrote...
But elves are genetically incapable of producing elven childen except with OTHER elves!

And IRL, humans are genetically incapable of producing human children except with other humans. So?

And they are already a minority. 

Only in the sense that there are more sentient non-elves. But that doesn't somehow mean that elves are forced to have sex and children with non-elves. Are you going to come out and say that you think elves that aren't straight are race-traitors? Because that's where this logic leads. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think Faerunner's argument was that we support the human dominated culture of Thedas because we are all human.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:54 .

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

We were referring to the nations themselves, not to mention it seems that templars and the Chantry don't devote that much effort to going after the Dalish nowadays.

Merrill said the Dalish are nomadic, in part, because they are hunted by the templars. Ariane even protected her clam from a templar pursuing them. We don't know whether or not the templars are still pursuing the Dalish during the Mage-Templar War.

Vandicus wrote...

Every group in Thedas has had someone from every other group be a douche-bag to their members. Even the cheese-lovers club has been mistreated. Doesn't mean that it justifies being a douche-bag to other people who don't deserve it. 

All that being said, I understand why the Dalish are they way they are. Not like they choose to be born Dalish either. It doesn't mean their attitude needs to be portrayed positively though. 

The ancestors of the Dalish dealt with centuries of slavery and oppression, losing two homelands, the continual subjugation of their city brethren, and are nomadic because they are actively hunted down by armed soldiers of the dominant human religion of Thedas. I'm not surprised some Dalish are wary of humans as a result.

[In Exile]

dragondreamer wrote...
The Dalish have more in common with an endangered species than a racist group in that respect.   They will literally go extinct as a species if they interbreed with humans too much.  

Skinheads think "white" people will go extict if they "interbreed" with non-"white" people. That's what racists think. But what it means to be an "elf" is up to the elves themselves to define. If every single elf decides tommorw that they want a human parter, that's their right. Just like it's their right if they decide to have S/S relationships exclusive. 

Even the City elves hold the same cultural views concerning reproduction, which is why alienage elves have arranged marriages and consider marrying outside their race to be a taboo.  Making more baby elves is considered a cultural duty by BOTH Dalish and City elves.

And that view is in itself vile. But there's a big difference between that and what the Dalish do, because the Dalish views about racial purity aren't just about socially pressuring elves to marry elves. They're about beliefs that humans are actually plague carrying vermin that that the "true" state of the elves is to be immortal mages, inherently superior to all other races. 

True, but the Dalish aren't oppressing anyone, so it's funny that they get most of the venom.  I'm not exactly onboard the Dalish isolationist idea myself, but aside from the immortality beliefs, I can see why they're extremely distrustful of humans.

The Dalish aren't oppressing anyone, becuase they don't have the power to oppress them. But again, I'm onside with the Dalish, except for their beliefs. I always side with the oppressed groups - it's why I'm such a big CE fan. It's the Dalish culture that I'm against. 

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The ancestors of the Dalish dealt with centuries of slavery and oppression, losing two homelands, the continual subjugation of their city brethren, and are nomadic because they are actively hunted down by armed soldiers of the dominant human religion of Thedas. I'm not surprised some Dalish are wary of humans as a result.

I don't get your thing with the templars hunting the Dalish.It seems like the Dalish would have much, much bigger issues with the local kingdoms and towns. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:55 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

We were referring to the nations themselves, not to mention it seems that templars and the Chantry don't devote that much effort to going after the Dalish nowadays.

Merrill said the Dalish are nomadic, in part, because they are hunted by the templars. Ariane even protected her clam from a templar pursuing them. We don't know whether or not the templars are still pursuing the Dalish during the Mage-Templar War.

Vandicus wrote...

Every group in Thedas has had someone from every other group be a douche-bag to their members. Even the cheese-lovers club has been mistreated. Doesn't mean that it justifies being a douche-bag to other people who don't deserve it. 

All that being said, I understand why the Dalish are they way they are. Not like they choose to be born Dalish either. It doesn't mean their attitude needs to be portrayed positively though. 

The ancestors of the Dalish dealt with centuries of slavery and oppression, losing two homelands, the continual subjugation of their city brethren, and are nomadic because they are actively hunted down by armed soldiers of the dominant human religion of Thedas. I'm not surprised some Dalish are wary of humans as a result.

Yes I understand why the Dalish are taught to fear and sometimes to hate humans. I also understand why they're raised to look down on City Elves. That doesn't make the behavior worthy of positive portrayal.

If anything the way Dalish are taught to look at humans reminds me of how templars are taught to look at mages. Fortunately with such a broad breadth of experience with other people and their opinions, we see many templars who are sympathetic and friendly towards mages. Unfortunately with the Dalish, they don't have an opportunity to experience many other viewpoints.