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[Sporothrix]

Will lesbian and gay characters this time be treated like they are really part of the world?

I've heard lots of times that people in Dragon Age world don't have issues with homosexuality, yet it's very hard for me to believe that judging from how my characters were treated in-game.

For example, my City Elf character was going to be married against her will to a man. I know that it's arranged marriage and "putting community above yourself", but her cousin pointed out that she's lucky because her future husband is very handsome, her father told her: "And yes, he's very handsome. I knew you'd ask so I saved you the trouble". And Soris pointed out that "he's dreamy" too. So it's obvious that they all thought that it's something important to my character, thus, they all must have thought that she's straight (or bi at most), that she's attracted to men. And she had no possibility, no dialogue option, to discuss this issue.

It could only be explained by two things. Either our character can only be straight or bisexual, not gay, or for some reason she's in the closet. But if she's in the closet, has to lie to her father and cousins, it means that apparently homosexuality is not "non-issue" at all.

So when she later fell for Leliana, it looked completely artificial that despite everything that happened earlier, there was no discussion between them about it. Not to mention that her relationship has been only acknowledged by three party members (there wasn't even party banter about it) and when she met her father again, she never talked about it with him.

Sorry, but to me it looks like "here, have same sex romance, but let's not talk about it anymore to avoid making any social commentary out of it". But because of that, of such contradicting clues, the impression that the character is really part of that world suffers.

DAII wasn't much better in that department. We've got the same number of LI's and I thank Bioware for that, but the message was still contradicting. On one hand, it looked like there's no issue with it, but on another, homosexuality is still pretty much invisible, especially if you don't play as gay character, and we don't even know what are views of society about it. Or how such people are named, because there's no way there wasn't term for it (like for example IRL, before "lesbian" there was "tribade"). And if there's not much issue with homosexual acts themselves, then if homosexual attraction is considered as just as "valid" as heterosexual attraction, not just as a "phase" before ending with person of opposite gender.

It's all things that my character has to be aware of, but I, as a player, can only make suppositions, and as for me, it affects gaming immersion.

[Medhia Nox]

@misoretu9: These games are not about being gay, straight, other.

[daveliam]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@misoretu9: These games are not about being gay, straight, other.

For you, perhaps. 

I can already see that this thread is not going to go anywhere good.  Grabbing popcorn.

[NRieh]

On one hand, it looked like there's no issue with it, but on another, homosexuality is still pretty much invisible

I suppose, it had never occurred to you, that straight romances had exactly same little amount of reactivity throughout the game? I mean like Eamon never bothers to comment on soon-to-be-king Alistair's (not so very discreet) relations with elf or dwarf Warden?.. There are not too many romannce-sensitive content oustside LI-characters, you know.   

Modifié par Nrieh, 18 janvier 2014 - 04:39 .

[CybAnt1]

I think homosexuality is obviously more tolerated in Thedas than it was in Earth's Middle Ages, although I think this is simply a quirk too because Bioware simply wants people to be able to have same sex romances, given modern societal attitudes and the expectations of gay players or straights who want to role-play gay characters.

It's interesting that there are no 'pure' gays, only bisexuals, among your companions. That is, Leliana seems to be willing to romance males or females. Same thing with Isabela. On the male side, same thing with Anders, or Zevran. If you encounter people who won't switch-hit, then they are usually straight only - like Alistair (sans mod) or Sebastian.

However, we never meet any homosexual couples in the game. (Well, except for the two blacksmiths, who many see as having a kind of Bert-n-Ernie thing going on.) No one ever discusses it. And let's face it, this is a society without any kind of fertility options, and that requires HEIRS that are heterosexually produced. As we learn from Alistair, being a bastard (literally) is still a problem, people clearly aren't totally willing to accept children conceived out of wedlock.

The emphasis on children and lineage keeps people -- 'heteronormative' -- and yet, it is odd, not even Chantry people seem to hiss at you when they see you, female protag, with your female lover at your side, or male with male. Companions will make "warning" comments about your relationships, but never on the basis of their being of the same gender.

Here's the entire section of the Dragon Age Wiki on it:

http://dragonage.wik...ty_and_marriage

Same-gender relationships

Same-sex relations are generally considered strange, though not inherently immoral, in Ferelden. Orlesians regard homosexuality as a mere quirk of character, and the Antivan Crows show a winking tolerance for relations with multiple partners of either sex. The Chantry does not seem to have an official view on the subject. There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves or dwarves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring.

[end]

Basically - nobody seems to think of it as inherently immoral, although approval of it varies from society to society (and race to race).

Modifié par CybAnt1, 18 janvier 2014 - 04:40 .

[nightcobra]

heterosexuality and homosexuality in Thedas is something viewed as just normal, strange perhaps to onlookers but still normal, so no one makes a big deal out of it. if anything race is more of an issue than gender due to tensions between humans and elves and qunari.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 18 janvier 2014 - 04:41 .

[Medhia Nox]

@daveliam: So, you're saying that Bioware is writing a story about human sexuality?

I'd rather they concentrate their limited resources on the actual story.

[JCAP]

I think the OP is trying to dig a problem where it doesn't exist. In fact, DA II is very open to homosexuality, so open that if I say Anders is making me unconfortable I get rivalry points.

[Exaltation]

Mages are the "gays" in Dragon Age duh lol.

[Sporothrix]

JCAP wrote...

I think the OP is trying to dig a problem where it doesn't exist. In fact, DA II is very open to homosexuality, so open that if I say Anders is making me unconfortable I get rivalry points.

He was hitting on my female character too. Since she wasn't attracted to men, it looked quite different this way...

But my point is that there is inconsistence in portrayal as well as lack of explanation what exactly people think about it, not saying that there isn't depicted homosexual behavior in-game.

Modifié par misoretu9, 18 janvier 2014 - 04:50 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Exaltation: Not even close.

[Sporothrix]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

heterosexuality and homosexuality in Thedas is something viewed as just normal, strange perhaps to onlookers but still normal, so no one makes a big deal out of it. if anything race is more of an issue than gender due to tensions between humans and elves and qunari.

Then why my City Elf character had to hide that she's homosexual?

[Naesaki]

I think your reading way too much into the dialogue tree's in the city elf origin

[Killdren88]

misoretu9 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

heterosexuality and homosexuality in Thedas is something viewed as just normal, strange perhaps to onlookers but still normal, so no one makes a big deal out of it. if anything race is more of an issue than gender due to tensions between humans and elves and qunari.

Then why my City Elf character had to hide that she's homosexual?

Didn't have to hide it. You could be as vocal as you want about not wanting to get married. Just one of those werid traditions you can't really argue with.

[NRieh]

But my point is that there is inconsistence in portrayal as well as lack of explanation what exactly people think about it, not saying that there isn't depicted homosexual behavior in-game.

Why don't we get 'inconsistancy' talks about x-racrial relations...
I mean, come on, give me the thread about lack of 'explainations' for mHuman-fDwarf romance!

OP, I'm trying to tell you once again. Amount of Romance- (and sex-...remember thу Pearl and Blooming Rose) sensitivity of content has NOTHING to do with sexuality, it affects ALL races and genders.

[Sporothrix]

Killdren88 wrote...

misoretu9 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

heterosexuality and homosexuality in Thedas is something viewed as just normal, strange perhaps to onlookers but still normal, so no one makes a big deal out of it. if anything race is more of an issue than gender due to tensions between humans and elves and qunari.

Then why my City Elf character had to hide that she's homosexual?

Didn't have to hide it. You could be as vocal as you want about not wanting to get married. Just one of those werid traditions you can't really argue with.

I know that. I already explained it in my opening post. But it's obvious that her family thinks she is attracted to men, therefore, the only explanation (apart from less likely that Bioware didn't allow us to play gay character) could be that she had to hide it.

[Medhia Nox]

The arranged marriage is... arranged (as Mad Hanar pointed out).

Forcing someone to have procreational sex isn't homophobic... it's a breeding program.

And since your entire Alienage expects you to go through with it (NOT because you must be straight, but because you must make more elfkins)  - just call it peer pressure. Write some headcanon about how guilty you feel because you were, on some level, happy about what happened.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:07 .

[Killdren88]

I'm not understanding the problem. No one is being stoned to death in the game because they are a homosexual. They are treated just as well as anyone else. Might be a tad out of the norm but still okay in Fereldan, but Everywhere else they have pretty much have accepted Homosexuality. So OP, not to sound snide, But what is the problem?

[10K]

misoretu9 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

heterosexuality and homosexuality in Thedas is something viewed as just normal, strange perhaps to onlookers but still normal, so no one makes a big deal out of it. if anything race is more of an issue than gender due to tensions between humans and elves and qunari.

Then why my City Elf character had to hide that she's homosexual?

Because the game isn't really centered around developing your character's sexuality per se. The story is the main, and important part of the game. The part the devs want to get across. I can use that same city elf example and ask: Why was my elf being forced to marry Nesiara when he's obviously anti-marriage?

Developing a character isn't that specific because the game has its limits. All you can do is use the options you're given to develop a sense of sexuality for your character. Which you did when you started a romance with Leliana.

[Sporothrix]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The arranged marriage is... arranged (as Mad Hanar pointed out).

Forcing someone to have procreational sex isn't homophobic... it's a breeding program.

And since your entire Alienage expects you to go through with it (NOT because you must be straight, but because you must make more elfkins)  - just call it peer pressure. Write some headcanon about how guilty you feel because you were, on some level, happy about what happened.

OK, first of all my post wasn't intended to call out any homophobia or anything like that. As long as they wouldn't portray it as good thing, I would be completely OK with devs making it obvious that my character has to hide who she is because of living in homophobic environment. But that's the point, theoretically there's no homophobia at all, yet she hides it anyway, and had to lie about herself because her father and cousins obviously don't know that she's not attracted to men.

If there was conversation acknowledging this fact, something in line that they know what a big sacrifice for a greater good and community on her part it will be, there would be consistency in portrayal.

[Fortlowe]

A homosexual man is the head writer for the franchise. If homosexuality isn't given a fair shake in those circumstances, and it should in any circumstance imo, then the problem likely isn't on the game side of the screen.

[Pasquale1234]

misoretu9 wrote...

For example, my City Elf character was going to be married against her will to a man. I know that it's arranged marriage and "putting community above yourself", but her cousin pointed out that she's lucky because her future husband is very handsome, her father told her: "And yes, he's very handsome. I knew you'd ask so I saved you the trouble". And Soris pointed out that "he's dreamy" too. So it's obvious that they all thought that it's something important to my character, thus, they all must have thought that she's straight (or bi at most), that she's attracted to men. And she had no possibility, no dialogue option, to discuss this issue.

It could only be explained by two things. Either our character can only be straight or bisexual, not gay, or for some reason she's in the closet. But if she's in the closet, has to lie to her father and cousins, it means that apparently homosexuality is not "non-issue" at all.

I beg to differ.  I see sexual orientation in Thedas not only as a complete non-issue, but also as something that is not even recognized.  And that is not an entirely bad thing.

Western culture did not recognize the existence of sexual orientation until late in the 19th century.  There weren't any labels for it.

In a world where sexual orientation is not understood or contemplated, there is no such thing as "coming out".  You might date males, you might date females, you might date neither or both - but your choices in these liasons do not define you.  I've never quite understood why people make such a big deal out of it, as if it is some super-crucial component to one's identity or character.  From where I sit, it isn't that different from whether someone prefers peach or raspberry, cake or pie, neither or both.

I don't think it's an especially bad thing for one's arranged marriage partner to be described as handsome or dreamy.  If you're going to be required to marry someone, better that than some slimeball.

So when she later fell for Leliana, it looked completely artificial that despite everything that happened earlier, there was no discussion between them about it. Not to mention that her relationship has been only acknowledged by three party members (there wasn't even party banter about it) and when she met her father again, she never talked about it with him.

I think it's because you were dating Leliana, not all women.  The focus was on your specific relationship with her, not your general overall sexual preference or orientation, so you weren't required to define that in order to play the game and enjoy that relationship.

If sexual orientation were to become a topic of discussion in the game, the most likely expectation would be a default of heterosexual, and only non-hets would need to state their orientation or come out in some way.  I think that would be a giant step backward.

[Lady Lionheart]

The City Elf's family couldn't care less that the PC does not want to go through with the wedding, regardless of their sexual preference it will continue.
I can imagine her telling her father and he would be upset because he wants grandchildren so he'd arrange a marriage hoping for her to eventually have kids, unwillingly.
Or something, I dunno.
Just make something up, it's fun!