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Society's attitudes toward homosexual people


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#26
9TailsFox

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misoretu9 wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

misoretu9 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

heterosexuality and homosexuality in Thedas is something viewed as just normal, strange perhaps to onlookers but still normal, so no one makes a big deal out of it. if anything race is more of an issue than gender due to tensions between humans and elves and qunari.

Then why my City Elf character had to hide that she's homosexual?


Didn't have to hide it. You could be as vocal as you want about not wanting to get married. Just one of those werid traditions you can't really argue with.

I know that. I already explained it in my opening post. But it's obvious that her family thinks she is attracted to men, therefore, the only explanation (apart from less likely that Bioware didn't allow us to play gay character) could be that she had to hide it.


It's obvious that her family wants little elfs.

#27
Hellion Rex

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Fereldan - keep it under the table, and nobody really cares
Orlais - self-explanatory
Tevinter - same as Fereldan
Qunari - I have no freaking clue.
Dalish - extremely worried about the dying out of the race
City Elves - same as Dalish

#28
Veruin

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eluvianix wrote...

Fereldan -So long as you provide an heir,  nobody really cares
Orlais - self-explanatory
Tevinter - same as Fereldan
Qunari - I have no freaking clue.
Dalish - extremely worried about the dying out of the race
City Elves - same as Dalish


Fixed.

#29
Hellion Rex

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Veruin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Fereldan -So long as you provide an heir,  nobody really cares
Orlais - self-explanatory
Tevinter - same as Fereldan
Qunari - I have no freaking clue.
Dalish - extremely worried about the dying out of the race
City Elves - same as Dalish


Fixed.



Ahem...and what about the non-nobles, dude? They probably don't care nearly as much about heirs.

#30
Guest_Puddi III_*

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Qunari repress the concept of sexuality entirely.

#31
Veruin

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eluvianix wrote...

Ahem...and what about the non-nobles, dude? They probably don't care nearly as much about heirs.


Noble or not, I would think it would be in their interest to continue the bloodline as well as provide an extra pair of hands.

#32
CybAnt1

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The Qun's view on sexuality is pretty ... odd, too.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

Qunari have no "family units": they do not marry, choose partners, or even know to whom they are related. A Qunari's "family" consists of his or her coworkers.[4]

Qunari generally do not associate mating with love. They feel love. They have friends. They form emotional bonds with one another. However, they simply do not sleep with each other to express it. If they do, then they are sent to be reeducated by the Ben-Hassrath. If a child is produced, the same thing happens as with all other Qunari children: it is sent to be raised by the Tamassrans, evaluated, and assigned a job. Qunari do not waste resources unnecessarily, people included.

[end]

Their society, especially when it comes to this aspect, remind me a lot of Brave New World.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:38 .


#33
Hellion Rex

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Filament wrote...

Qunari repress the concept of sexuality entirely.


I think they more repress the use of sex as an act of pleasure, rather than suppress sexuality itself.

#34
CybAnt1

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It's not just sex ... they seem to handle (inevitable) reproduction as something to be handled as bureaucratically as everything else.

I would expect a Qunari raised under the Qun wouldn't "romance" anybody.

... that's why Sten was never an "option" in DAO.

Inquisitor-Kossith might seek romance as they've left/rejected the Qun. Wonder if there will be any other Tal-Vashoth romance options for them ... or others.

#35
Sporothrix

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Pasquale1234 wrote...

I beg to differ.  I see sexual orientation in Thedas not only as a complete non-issue, but also as something that is not even recognized.  And that is not an entirely bad thing.

Western culture did not recognize the existence of sexual orientation until late in the 19th century.  There weren't any labels for it.

Anything against "the norm" (which from todays POV means "heterosexuality") was simply considered as "deviation" from the norm and sin.
And it's not true that there weren't labels for it, it was just considered to be some sort of "unnatural" acts driven by unholy sources. Like with the word "tribade" which is much older than "lesbian". People thought that "tribades" must have some body defects or even have to be in fact hermaphrodites if they have sex with women.

I feel that your point is "everyone is bi". That's not true, and the reason why the concept of "sexual orientation" was formed is because it describes patterns of reality pretty well. There were always people who are exclusively attracted to people of the same sex, to people of other sex, and to both sexes in various degrees.

In a world where sexual orientation is not understood or contemplated, there is no such thing as "coming out".  You might date males, you might date females, you might date neither or both - but your choices in these liasons do not define you.  I've never quite understood why people make such a big deal out of it, as if it is some super-crucial component to one's identity or character.  From where I sit, it isn't that different from whether someone prefers peach or raspberry, cake or pie, neither or both.

No, in world where sexual orientation is not understood or contemplated, as real life showed, the pattern expressed by majority (thus, heterosexuality) is considered the norm. Which is comforting for people who "deviate" from the norm only a bit, like bisexuals with preference for opposite sex, since they still could think that they are "generally normal", but it works against exclusively homosexual people, makes them completely invisible and is forcing them to adjust.

I don't think it's an especially bad thing for one's arranged marriage partner to be described as handsome or dreamy.  If you're going to be required to marry someone, better that than some slimeball.

It's quite good example regarding your earlier " I've never quite understood why people make such a big deal out of it".
When someone says something like that to a woman who is forced to marry a man against her will, knowing that she's not attracted to men, then it's an act of total lack of empathy with how she feels, and it shows that they don't take her words regarding her feelings seriously.

If sexual orientation were to become a topic of discussion in the game, the most likely expectation would be a default of heterosexual, and only non-hets would need to state their orientation or come out in some way.  I think that would be a giant step backward.

And I, as homosexual person, think otherwise. Heterosexuality is considered the default, everyone assumes you're hetero unless you state or show otherwise. So leaving it this way just takes away from visibility of people who are not straight.

Modifié par misoretu9, 18 janvier 2014 - 05:48 .


#36
9TailsFox

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CybAnt1 wrote...

It's not just sex ... they seem to handle (inevitable) reproduction as something to be handled as bureaucratically as everything else.

I would expect a Qunari raised under the Qun wouldn't "romance" anybody.

... that's why Sten was never an "option" in DAO.

Inquisitor-Kossith might seek romance as they've left/rejected the Qun. Wonder if there will be any other Tal-Vashoth romance options for them ... or others.


 We have Iron bull. So maybe. Too bad no female qunari, girls get romances :( .

#37
Rotward

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You're stretching. Homosexuality isn't met with any problems in dragon age or mass effect. Both have instances where it's just not considered, but neither has instances of bigotry towards homosexuality.

Your issue has more to do with Bioware and marketing strategies than with in-game bigotry.

#38
Marakov7

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When you bid farewell to your father in the City Elf origin, if you say mention that he doesn't seem happy about your becoming a Grey Warden he replies that he dreamed of grandchildren and family gatherings. Is that unreasonable or homophobic? Or is it understandable considering the fact that he is a widower and you are his only child? Family is important to him and your going away with Duncan dashes any hopes of that.

In the Human Noble origin, when Fergus teases you about having to go to bed early you can reply that you don't mind since you have somebody waiting for you. If you have arranged a same sex rendezvous with Iona or Dairren, he will "guess" right about who you are going to bed with that night. He doesn't automatically assume that you have some heterosexual hibbity bippity lined up...

Perhaps it's a matter of people not broadcasting their sexuality since they consider it nobody else's business...would be rather refreshing - no matter what their inclination might be.

#39
Fast Jimmy

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I don't think it is so much an intentional slight in terms of homosexuality, heterosexuality, asexually or any other number of sexual identifies... I think it is simply a matter of A) romance as a feature being a side option and not intertwined to every interaction with the PC's character and B) just like any other level of customizability (such as, for instance, your race in DA:O) not having enough zots to address every facet that can be chosen by the player.

What you are essentially stating is that being a gay elf is missing some possibly logical content. Which is totally fine. But a gay human noble can court a male or female in their origin without spurn or question. So I'd say what you are essentially stating is "I want more zots spent on the types of content I find important" which is, again, totally fine... but the implication that it might be an intentional grift by the devs or that it somehow subverts what the creators have stated is the cultural norm is something I don't feel is entirely accurate.

#40
Guest_Puddi III_*

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Well if I'm understanding sexuality simply as sexual attraction that fosters the formation of a romantic bond with some group or groups, I don't see the qunari allowing that. They have 'love,' but it's all (only allowed to be) platonic apparently.

#41
gonzalez.melissa53

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Personally, I found it to be a bigger deal that my mage could go around doing blood magic all the time and no npc bothered to comment... not even a party member spoke up. I would love to see more depth to the romances and a more real reaction to those relationship by npcs but the devs only have so many resources and if I had to pick between being noticed as a lesbian or a blood mage I'll go with the blood mage.

#42
9TailsFox

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This fits perfect.
Posted Image

#43
Sporothrix

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Rotward wrote...

You're stretching. Homosexuality isn't met with any problems in dragon age or mass effect. Both have instances where it's just not considered, but neither has instances of bigotry towards homosexuality.

Your issue has more to do with Bioware and marketing strategies than with in-game bigotry.


Probably because in-game bigotry was never my issue. Let me cite myself again:

"OK, first of all my post wasn't intended to call out any homophobia or
anything like that. As long as they wouldn't portray it as good thing, I
would be completely OK with devs making it obvious that my character
has to hide who she is because of living in homophobic environment. But
that's the point, theoretically there's no homophobia at all, yet she
hides it anyway, and had to lie about herself because her father and
cousins obviously don't know that she's not attracted to men.

If
there was conversation acknowledging this fact, something in line that
they know what a big sacrifice for a greater good and community on her
part it will be, there would be consistency in portrayal."

#44
Ianamus

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If sexuality isn't even recognized then it makes sense for the city elf origin to play out the way it does. The city elf may have never felt attraction towards the opposite gender and may have towards the same gender, but they wouldn't have a means of labeling it or even understanding it.

What would they say? "Dad I don't want to marry this person because I once felt attraction towards the girl who lives opposite but do not feel attracted to this man"? The response to that would just be "tough luck you're marrying him". Besides, not being attracted to your arranged marriage partner is hardly an issue limited to homosexual people. You just have to live with it, and I'm sure the city elf origin let you express distaste at being forced into marriage, which sort of covers that.

I don't even really think the handsome comments are out of place either. Even if you are not attracted to the gender of the person you're marrying it would still be preferable that they are attractive wouldn't it?

Modifié par EJ107, 18 janvier 2014 - 06:07 .


#45
Rotward

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Then this thread is really about one instance in one game, and has nothing to do with inquisition.

#46
Veruin

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Rotward wrote...

Then this thread is really about one instance in one game, and has nothing to do with inquisition.


The worst part, is that the OP thinks Bioware can accomdate for every possible variable.

#47
superdeathdealer14

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The DA wiki says: "Same-sex relations are generally considered strange, though not inherently immoral, in Ferelden. Orlesians regard homosexuality as a mere quirk of character, and the Antivan Crows show a winking tolerance for relations with multiple partners of either sex. The Chantry does not seem to have an official view on the subject. There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves or dwarves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring."

#48
Cutlass Jack

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The 'forced' marriage option for the city elf had absolutely zero to do with sexual preferences. The entire point of it was that your life was being decided for you. Becoming a Warden was about breaking free from that and taking life on terms you chose rather than chosen for you.

You could be equally against the marriage regardless of sexual preferences. Every origin featured things beyond your control. For example leaving your mother behind to die in the Human Noble origin. An origin I should point out allowed for you to have same sex relations just prior to that.

#49
Sporothrix

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EJ107 wrote...

If sexuality isn't even recognized then it makes sense for the city elf origin to play out the way it does. The city elf may have never felt attraction towards the opposite gender and may have towards the same gender, but they wouldn't have a means of labeling it or even understanding it.

What would they say? "Dad I don't want to marry this person because I once felt attraction towards the girl who lives opposite but do not feel attracted to this man"? The response to that would just be "tough luck you're marrying him".


That's reasonable explanation, but it kinda contradicts with official statement that it's "non-issue" and leads to many questions. If homosexuality is basically invisible and everyone is considered into opposite sex by default, expected to "act straight", marry, have children and so on, then how are viewed people who "act gay"? We know that it's not considered sin, but is it something like with "tribades" in Greece? That there's something "unnatural" going on? Or maybe it is considered as only a "phase"?

There are so many questions, and game gives us no real answers. That breaks gaming immersion a bit, because we have to make it up in our heads, imagine many scenes that weren't showed but without which it wouldn't make much sense character development wise.
Like for example, lesbian City Elf's character sudden transformation from being confused about her sexuality (according to explanation from above) to jumping into relationship with Leliana (as well as casual sex with some female NPC's).

Modifié par misoretu9, 18 janvier 2014 - 06:26 .


#50
Grieving Natashina

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I don't mind any disrespect towards the OP, as I think it was a well written post. However, I have to completely disagree with you. First off, as has been mentioned, arranged marriages have never really taken into account what either parties want. It's about joining houses and/or siring children. Sexual preference and love have little to do with it. Plus, it seemed like it was one of the only times the Alienage ever a legal chance to celebrate publicly. Arranged marriages are for everyone else involved usually.

I found it refreshing that for once, even in a game, my PC's sexual preference was never really mentioned. The writers took that type of energy more towards the racial tensions and the mages in Thedas. I liked that. I liked that the general attitude seemed to be "eh, as long as you do your duty Gray Warden."

So I'd rather have the focus not be on my character's sexuality that makes her different. Her attitude, her race, her born/chosen class? Sure, I enjoy that exploration. It is nice to see Thedas is overall indifferent about sexual preference.

May I ask what this has to do with Inquisition?  :?

Edit: If you're wondering how some of Thedas deals with those that act "openly gay," you should go meet Serendipity.  You can meet her in the Legacy DLC.  She is acknowledged openly to be a transgender character.  She's a noble's escort and no one is batting an eye.  Isabella has quite the rep for being a man and lady killer and it's generally accepted.  That's just my take on it.  To each their own. :)

Modifié par Starsyn, 18 janvier 2014 - 06:32 .