104 réponses à ce sujet

[AutumnWitch]

I would like to be able to "label" my character in game as lesbian just to avoid having to hurt men's feelings when they try to romance her. For example, if she made it known fairly soon after meeting people, there would be no reason for companions like Anders to feel as if she likes him that way and therefore he would save himself the embarrassment of getting shot down when he tries to hit on her.

[Ianamus]

misoretu9 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

If sexuality isn't even recognized then it makes sense for the city elf origin to play out the way it does. The city elf may have never felt attraction towards the opposite gender and may have towards the same gender, but they wouldn't have a means of labeling it or even understanding it.

What would they say? "Dad I don't want to marry this person because I once felt attraction towards the girl who lives opposite but do not feel attracted to this man"? The response to that would just be "tough luck you're marrying him".

That's reasonable explanation, but it kinda contradicts with official statement that it's "non-issue" and leads to many questions. If homosexuality is basically invisible and everyone is considered into opposite sex by default, expected to "act straight", marry, have children and so on, then how are viewed people who "act gay"? We know that it's not considered sin, but is it something like with "tribades" in Greece? That there's something "unnatural" going on? Or maybe it is considered as only a "phase"?

There are so many questions, and game gives us no real answers. That breaks gaming immersion a bit, because we have to make it up in our heads, imagine many scenes that weren't showed but without which it wouldn't make much sense character development wise.
Like for example, lesbian City Elf's character sudden transformation from being confused about her sexuality (according to explanation from above) to jumping into relationship with Leliana (as well as casual sex with some female NPC's).

I don't think it implies the city elf is confused about her sexuality, or contradicts that it is a farily "non-issue". She knows she was attracted to females before and has not found any men she has met attractive. She finds Leliana and potentially other women attractive and sleeps with or falls in love with them... she may never identify as a lesbian but that does make her confused- she knows who she likes and who she does not, who she finds attractive and who she does not. 

A noble looks at the city elf and Leliana and thinks "A romance with an elf, how scandalous!" probably caring little about the gender of the two, were she a human commoners would look at it and think it unusual, but nothing particuarly noteworthy. In that respect it isn't really an issue. 

Her father might look at it and say "You should be in a relationship with a male elf so you can produce elven children!" In this respect it is kind of an issue, but not a societal one so much as a domestic one. Nobles may care about lack of offspring from their children, as may Elves, but no more than they would care about the race or social standing of who their children marry. A relationship between two male nobles will probably be less frowned upon less than one between a male noble and a female elven servant. 

Modifié par EJ107, 18 janvier 2014 - 06:48 .

[MisterJB]

The World of Thedas, page 72
"What I find most interesting is that, despite the lack of open discussion on matters of human sexuality, there is commonality to be found on the subject in all Andrastian lands.
Typically, one's sexual habits are considered natural and separate from matters of procreation, and only among the nobility, where procreation involves issues of inheritance and the union of powerful families, is it considered of vital importance. Yet, even there, a noble who has done their duty to the family might be allowed to pursue their own sexual interests without raising eyebrows.
The view on indulging lusts with a member of the same gender varies from land to land. In Orlais, it is considered a quirk of character and nothing more. In Ferelden, it is a matter of scandal if done indiscreetly but otherwise nothing noteworthy. In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves. Nowhere is it forbidden and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to an awful excess or performed in the public eye
-From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi."

/Thread

[Pasquale1234]

misoretu9 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Western culture did not recognize the existence of sexual orientation until late in the 19th century.  There weren't any labels for it.

Anything against "the norm" (which from todays POV means "heterosexuality") was simply considered as "deviation" from the norm and sin.
And it's not true that there weren't labels for it, it was just considered to be some sort of "unnatural" acts driven by unholy sources. Like with the word "tribade" which is much older than "lesbian". People thought that "tribades" must have some body defects or even have to be in fact hermaphrodites if they have sex with women.

I think you just proved my point.  What you describe here is terminology for specific sexual acts and beliefs about them, and the idea that people who engage in homoerotic acts are behaving contrary to their nature.

That changed when the concept of sexual orientation - the idea that some people are naturally drawn to intimacy with members of their own sex - came into being.

No, in world where sexual orientation is not understood or contemplated, as real life showed, the pattern expressed by majority (thus, heterosexuality) is considered the norm. Which is comforting for people who "deviate" from the norm only a bit, like bisexuals with preference for opposite sex, since they still could think that they are "generally normal", but it works against exclusively homosexual people, makes them completely invisible and is forcing them to adjust.

Only if you insist that a "norm" be defined, feel the need to measure yourself against that "norm", and define yourself in terms of your compliance to that "norm".

And frankly, in a world that does not condemn same-sex attraction, I'm not entirely convinced that hetero would emerge as the standard or norm.

If brown hair is the norm, does that make redheads invisible, and force them to adjust?  Only if you consider hair color to be an important defining factor.

I know quite a few people who married someone of the opposite sex and started families with them as young adults, only to leave all of that behind and come out in mid-life.  I also know married people who have affairs with same-sex partners.  These are a couple of reasons why I do not accept the idea that someone's apparent, public sexual behavior defines their orientation.

When I see people claim, for example, that Aveline is straight, I see that as assuming a fact not in evidence.  We know that she married Wesley and Donnic, but that doesn't mean she has no sexual interest in women.  More than one of my female Hawkes managed to elicit a kiss from her.

People are also quick to label Isabela as bisexual, even though she has never applied that label to herself.  For all we know, an Isabela who falls deeply in love with a female Hawke could suddenly decide that she had all of those liasons with men due to easy availability, and they were all merely boy toys, but her *real* passion is women, and thus declare herself a lesbian.

Trying to apply orientation labels to others based on what you see as their apparent public behavior is generally not a good idea, and often incorrect.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

The World of Thedas, page 72
"What I find most interesting is that, despite the lack of open discussion on matters of human sexuality, there is commonality to be found on the subject in all Andrastian lands.
Typically, one's sexual habits are considered natural and separate from matters of procreation, and only among the nobility, where procreation involves issues of inheritance and the union of powerful families, is it considered of vital importance. Yet, even there, a noble who has done their duty to the family might be allowed to pursue their own sexual interests without raising eyebrows.
The view on indulging lusts with a member of the same gender varies from land to land. In Orlais, it is considered a quirk of character and nothing more. In Ferelden, it is a matter of scandal if done indiscreetly but otherwise nothing noteworthy. In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves. Nowhere is it forbidden and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to an awful excess or performed in the public eye
-From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi."

/Thread

Thank you for posting that.

[Tyrant112580]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The 'forced' marriage option for the city elf had absolutely zero to do with sexual preferences. The entire point of it was that your life was being decided for you. Becoming a Warden was about breaking free from that and taking life on terms you chose rather than chosen for you.

You could be equally against the marriage regardless of sexual preferences. Every origin featured things beyond your control. For example leaving your mother behind to die in the Human Noble origin. An origin I should point out allowed for you to have same sex relations just prior to that.

QFT

[Sporothrix]

Starsyn wrote...

May I ask what this has to do with Inquisition?  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

To explain devs how their take from previous games was received by a gay person, and make a suggestion what could be improved.

I don't mind any disrespect towards the OP, as I think it was a well written post. However, I have to completely disagree with you. First off, as has been mentioned, arranged marriages have never really taken into account what either parties want. It's about joining houses and/or siring children. Sexual preference and love have little to do with it. Plus, it seemed like it was one of the only times the Alienage ever a legal chance to celebrate publicly. Arranged marriages are for everyone else involved usually.

That's why I've never had any issue with marriage itself.

I found it refreshing that for once, even in a game, my PC's sexual preference was never really mentioned.

For you it was "non-issue", for me it was book example of heteronormativity. Which wouldn't be a problem for me if there wasn't pretense that it's "non-issue".

Edit: If you're wondering how some of Thedas deals with those that act "openly gay," you should go meet Serendipity.  You can meet her in the Legacy DLC.  She is acknowledged openly to be a transgender character.  She's a noble's escort and no one is batting an eye.  Isabella has quite the rep for being a man and lady killer and it's generally accepted.  That's just my take on it.  To each their own. 

First of all, transgenderism has nothing to do with being gay. Second of all, it's hard for me to see Serendipity as anything else that dev's joke, considering that they intentionally gave her really harsh manly voice which she doesn't even try to modulate. It was meant to look comical, nothing more, just like a dwarf in drag in DAO.

And Isabella could be viewed as typical example of "depraved bisexual" trope, one that hits on "anything that moves", like Zevran. They even gave her scene about STD.

Modifié par misoretu9, 18 janvier 2014 - 07:05 .

[Grieving Natashina]

<sigh> Look, I know transgender doesn't equal gay. However, someone like Serendipity is an example of how someone acting different from expected norm is treated. No one cared one way or the other. It was obvious she wasn't an average lady and yet, no one cared.

.....I will agree to disagree about Serendipity being a joke. I honestly don't think she was meant to be mainly a joke. I didn't take it as comedy, she was just there. Neither is Mae, from the comics. I didn't see Isabella being an example of the "depraved bisexual" trope because of her trip the clinic. I saw it as more of a joke about being a dirty pirate. Not because she liked women, or because she happened to be bi.


I honestly cannot see why you're angry about this.  I'm not trying to be dismissive, I just don't get it.

Plus, didn't you read MrJB's post? You realize that's from an in-universe perspective. Why make an issue when most Thedas residents don't care who anyone sleeps with?  I'm not straight, nor male. I'm glad I was able to romance Leliana and my party seemed more concerned with her being a bard than her gender.

Modifié par Starsyn, 18 janvier 2014 - 07:22 .

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Duno and dont care.
As a Lesbian i bont see anything wrong with the game world it tends to fallow the Greek / Edo Japan era when ****** sexuality was no big deal.
as for the arranged marrage quite a lot of people have been in arranged marrages when they have beem LGB whose to say the Husband / Bride them self wasnt a Homosexual or even that this was a standard form of "marage " rather than a breeding ritual and nothing more and both simply co-habit and have there own fun. ( i've had a Gay flatmate... the Quiches were awesom.)
Dose any one know the fereldan deffinition of marage as it could simply be a family / financial thing. " Heres my daughter for the Halla five Nuggs and a Ronto."

[Nefla]

I do find it strange how homosexuality is apparently accepted in the lore but while most of our romanceable companions are bi, we only ever see 2 homosexual couples in the whole series Wade/Herren and Branka/Hespith while we see dozens of heterosexual couples or individuals.

[AlanC9]

Nefla wrote...

I do find it strange how homosexuality is apparently accepted in the lore but while most of our romanceable companions are bi, we only ever see 2 homosexual couples in the whole series Wade/Herren and Branka/Hespith while we see dozens of heterosexual couples or individuals.

What percentage of couples is that, anyway?

[Cainhurst Crow]

I can't imagine that nobility would think of their offspring being homosexual was a good thing, since that means their entire bloodline and possibly future heirs just went out the window.

I imagine it goes along the lines of "Either you suck it out and pop out a baby or you're out of the family for good".

[Sporothrix]

MisterJB wrote...

The World of Thedas, page 72
"What I find most interesting is that, despite the lack of open discussion on matters of human sexuality, there is commonality to be found on the subject in all Andrastian lands.
Typically, one's sexual habits are considered natural and separate from matters of procreation, and only among the nobility, where procreation involves issues of inheritance and the union of powerful families, is it considered of vital importance. Yet, even there, a noble who has done their duty to the family might be allowed to pursue their own sexual interests without raising eyebrows.
The view on indulging lusts with a member of the same gender varies from land to land. In Orlais, it is considered a quirk of character and nothing more. In Ferelden, it is a matter of scandal if done indiscreetly but otherwise nothing noteworthy. In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves. Nowhere is it forbidden and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to an awful excess or performed in the public eye
-From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi."

/Thread

Thank you for bringing it. So it actually shows that homosexuality is not considered "non-issue". It is considered as something not "normal", and people who have such preferences are expected to hide it, but at least there's no institutionalized hatred toward them.

So it would explain why people like my City Elf wouldn't discuss it with her father or cousins, but it doesn't explain why later it was never mentioned in LI dialogue with Leliana.

So I hope that in Inquisition it will be fixed by at least some short conversation, because it won't look believeable to have lesbian Qunari who probably repressed her feelings all her life (unless it would be Tal-Vashoth), and then jump into romance with a woman just like that.

Modifié par misoretu9, 18 janvier 2014 - 07:30 .

[nightcobra]

su lu pi wrote...

Duno and dont care.
As a Lesbian i bont see anything wrong with the game world it tends to fallow the Greek / Edo Japan era when ****** sexuality was no big deal.
as for the arranged marrage quite a lot of people have been in arranged marrages when they have beem LGB whose to say the Husband / Bride them self wasnt a Homosexual or even that this was a standard form of "marage " rather than a breeding ritual and nothing more and both simply co-habit and have there own fun. ( i've had a Gay flatmate... the Quiches were awesom.)
Dose any one know the fereldan deffinition of marage as it could simply be a family / financial thing. " Heres my daughter for the Halla five Nuggs and a Ronto."

and then there's also the fact that Thedas is a dangerous place, abominations, demons, abusive templars, wild animals, darkspawn, abusive nobles guards and officials, wars, natural disasters and let's not forget diseases.

I'd wager breeding is on demand pretty much all the time.

[Sporothrix]

su lu pi wrote...

Duno and dont care.
As a Lesbian i bont see anything wrong with the game world it tends to fallow the Greek / Edo Japan era when ****** sexuality was no big deal.

Don't know about Japan, but Greece wasn't that perfect. Especially for gay women, called "tribades" then. They were generally not considered "real" women (there were theories that they are in fact 'hermaphrodites'), and even Sappho was ridiculed on a premise of her relationships with women.
Some time after her death, there was invented a story that she took her life for a man (we know she died naturally), apparently to "heterosexualize" her.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

S'what im saying Nobles do it all the time " Here take my Daughter her incesant boot wareing and swodsmanship is exhaperating." "Ah she will be a perfect bride for my son ****** his Crochett and bakery skills are unmatchet.". it more about breeding and politics than about love. have an Hare and boink the Maid or Pool boy... or even Mabari if you swing that way.

Always amuses me when i hear people harp on about "Traditional marrage."
it was realy about breeding financial and political aliance in the past. its only recentlt its been about love..well as long as your like everybody else that is.

[Sporothrix]

Starsyn wrote...

Plus, didn't you read MrJB's post? You realize that's from an in-universe perspective. Why make an issue when most Thedas residents don't care who anyone sleeps with?  I'm not straight, nor male. I'm glad I was able to romance Leliana and my party seemed more concerned with her being a bard than her gender.

I just don't get how anyone could state that forcing 100% gay woman into marriage with a man is "refreshing" act of presenting sexuality as "non-issue". Yeah, certainly it wasn't issue for anyone but her.
I assume you're not gay person so you don't understand, but just believe me for a word that sex with a man for a lesbian is awful experience. Therefore, I will never agree with opinion that society that does something like that to gay people, something that stands against their very nature, treats homosexuality as "non-issue". Maybe in a sense that there's no hatred and violence, but it's invisible and you're expected to lead heterosexual life anyway.

And before someone starts again with the meaning of arranged marriage - I get it. That's not what I'm talking about right now.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

And frankly, in a world that does not condemn same-sex attraction, I'm not entirely convinced that hetero would emerge as the standard or norm.

It already happened in the game. But it's understandable. Hetero is considered the norm simply because majority of people are heterosexual.

Modifié par misoretu9, 18 janvier 2014 - 08:15 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I don't think it is so much an intentional slight in terms of homosexuality, heterosexuality, asexually or any other number of sexual identifies... I think it is simply a matter of A) romance as a feature being a side option and not intertwined to every interaction with the PC's character and just like any other level of customizability (such as, for instance, your race in DA:O) not having enough zots to address every facet that can be chosen by the player.

What you are essentially stating is that being a gay elf is missing some possibly logical content. Which is totally fine. But a gay human noble can court a male or female in their origin without spurn or question. So I'd say what you are essentially stating is "I want more zots spent on the types of content I find important" which is, again, totally fine... but the implication that it might be an intentional grift by the devs or that it somehow subverts what the creators have stated is the cultural norm is something I don't feel is entirely accurate.

 I CAN'T BELIEVE I AGREE WITH JIMMY

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Way i see it its a sort of contract. the 100% Lesbian (Like my self.) gets finacial suport but its nore a breeding thing Theadas is a pretty dangerous place... an traditional marrage i'd rather live in sin.. or Glasgow my self.
Honestly id like to see Sexuality potrayed better some beint Hetro some Bi some only liking Dwarves for example.

[Pasquale1234]

misoretu9 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The World of Thedas, page 72
"What I find most interesting is that, despite the lack of open discussion on matters of human sexuality, there is commonality to be found on the subject in all Andrastian lands.
Typically, one's sexual habits are considered natural and separate from matters of procreation, and only among the nobility, where procreation involves issues of inheritance and the union of powerful families, is it considered of vital importance. Yet, even there, a noble who has done their duty to the family might be allowed to pursue their own sexual interests without raising eyebrows.
The view on indulging lusts with a member of the same gender varies from land to land. In Orlais, it is considered a quirk of character and nothing more. In Ferelden, it is a matter of scandal if done indiscreetly but otherwise nothing noteworthy. In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves. Nowhere is it forbidden and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to an awful excess or performed in the public eye
-From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi."

/Thread

Thank you for bringing it. So it actually shows that homosexuality is not considered "non-issue". It is considered as something not "normal", and people who have such preferences are expected to hide it, but at least there's no institutionalized hatred toward them.

So let's change that so that it refers to something that is not a hot-button issue for you.

"What I find most interesting is that, despite the lack of open
discussion on matters of ponytails, there is commonality to be
found on the subject in all Andrastian lands.
Typically, one's hairstyle is considered natural and separate from matters of grooming,
and only among the nobility, where grooming involves expectations of certain types of appearance presentation and the approval of powerful families, is it considered of
vital importance. Yet, even there, a noble who has done their duty to
the family might be allowed to pursue their own hairstyle interests without
raising eyebrows.
The view on indulging interest in hairstyles by wearing different styles on different occasions varies from land to land. In Orlais, it is considered a
quirk of character and nothing more. In Ferelden, it is a matter of
scandal if done indiscreetly but otherwise nothing noteworthy. In
Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles,
but actively encouraged with favored slaves. Nowhere is it forbidden and
hairstyles of any kind are only considered worthy of judgment when taken to an
awful excess or performed in the public eye

There are a lot of things where expectations of public behavior are different from private reality.

Does that change anything for you?

So I hope that in Inquisition it will be fixed by at least some short conversation, because it won't look believeable to have lesbian Qunari who probably repressed her feelings all her life (unless it would be Tal-Vashoth), and then jump into romance with a woman just like that.

I hope sexual orientation continues to be a non-issue in the game world.  If there is a need for an LI to deal with repression, I would hope it would apply to romances with either gender.

[Pasquale1234]

misoretu9 wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Plus, didn't you read MrJB's post? You realize that's from an in-universe perspective. Why make an issue when most Thedas residents don't care who anyone sleeps with?  I'm not straight, nor male. I'm glad I was able to romance Leliana and my party seemed more concerned with her being a bard than her gender.

I just don't get how anyone could state that forcing 100% gay woman into marriage with a man is "refreshing" act of presenting sexuality as "non-issue". Yeah, certainly it wasn't issue for anyone but her.
I assume you're not gay person so you don't understand, but just believe me for a word that sex with a man for a lesbian is awful experience.

And you know that it isn't an equally awful experience for a non-lesbian woman who finds the man revolting?

Pasquale1234 wrote...

And frankly, in a world that does not condemn same-sex attraction, I'm not entirely convinced that hetero would emerge as the standard or norm.

It already happened in the game. But it's understandable. Hetero is considered the norm simply because majority of people are heterosexual.

Only because you assume it to be so.  I've never heard one single character in either game state their sexuality.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 18 janvier 2014 - 08:32 .

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

As its been pointed out who ever you are porking in Theadas as long as its consentual its no big deal.
Be you Clam Diver Brown Hatter or a Paddy Ashdown its no big deal.

[General TSAR]

Nefla wrote...
we only ever see 2 homosexual couples in the whole series Wade/Herren and Branka/Hespith while we see dozens of heterosexual couples or individuals.

Well duh, the number of heterosexual people > number of homosexual people.

[Grieving Natashina]

misoretu9 wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Plus, didn't you read MrJB's post? You realize that's from an in-universe perspective. Why make an issue when most Thedas residents don't care who anyone sleeps with?  I'm not straight, nor male. I'm glad I was able to romance Leliana and my party seemed more concerned with her being a bard than her gender.

I just don't get how anyone could state that forcing 100% gay woman into marriage with a man is "refreshing" act of presenting sexuality as "non-issue". Yeah, certainly it wasn't issue for anyone but her.
I assume you're not gay person so you don't understand, but just believe me for a word that sex with a man for a lesbian is awful experience. Therefore, I will never agree with opinion that society that does something like that to gay people, something that stands against their very nature, treats homosexuality as "non-issue". Maybe in a sense that there's no hatred and violence, but it's invisible and you're expected to lead heterosexual life anyway.

Wow.  Do you really believe that? 

A person doesn't have to be gay to understand why arranged marriages can be horrible.  A person doesn't need to be gay to find a total stranger unattractive or even repulsive if they are forced to marry them.  Or if anyone is forced upon them they don't want to be on on them.  Poor Shainni...

I think arranged marriages are bad period.   Some countries and some cultures in Thedas do this.  Treating anyone as property in order to gain power is bad, no matter the circumstances.  Being forced to live due to a society convention (in such a detrimental way) is awful and speaks volumes about the open-mindedness of the culture.  It shouldn't be the case and you're right.  

However, I do not think that has anything to do with sexual preference and everything to do with how indivuals are treated.  Women, for instance or the casteless or the elves.  I haven't used the term "non-issue." I have said that no one seems to care too much about sexual preference, either way at all, and so far, that is the case.  I'd like to see more of Thedas in game before I make a judgement.  

On a final note, before I end this conversation (sick still and need a nap,) being bisexual isn't any better.  If anything, some gay folks think you're just confused or trendy (been called that before) and straight people will be the exact same way.  Both men and women will hit on you that you find repulsive because you "just haven't found the right one yet."  Many times, bisexuals will be forced to pretend to either be completely hetero or completely gay due to societial pressure.   I'm not talking about monogomy, I'm talking about completely shutting out that other side of yourself off all together.  I'm fortunate, but I know others that aren't so lucky.

I take the issue of same gender relationships seriously and once, In A Galaxy Far Far Away, I fought  for SGR and even contacted the press at one point.  It seems like a long time ago, even though it's been just over a year.  Anyhow, I can understand why you made this thread, even though I don't agree with some of your reasons.  For a company like BioWare, even with all their progression, they could always use the feedback.  Especially in matters like this, where inclusion is so important to try to get right.  I'm glad you spoke up. 

Try to have a safe Full Moon tonight!

Modifié par Starsyn, 18 janvier 2014 - 08:48 .

[Zered]

General TSAR wrote...

Nefla wrote...
we only ever see 2 homosexual couples in the whole series Wade/Herren and Branka/Hespith while we see dozens of heterosexual couples or individuals.

Well duh, the number of heterosexual people > number of homosexual people.

Nooooo! All must be equal! Everyone deserves the same credits! This is my sexuality and it must have representation in game! Must must must omg!!!!oneone


________

When I see all this bull crap about sexuality I sort of whish they cut all romances from the game.