408 réponses à ce sujet

[Abraham_uk]

Killdren88 wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

Why is it that whenever there is a thread that has the potential of producing an interesting discussion, it ultimately goes nowhere?

Name calling
Insults
Sexism
Misrepresentation of other peoples arguments
etc.


This doesn't even have to be a gender issue.
Asking for combat viable gear for all characters.
Asking for complex characters with traits that go beyond race and gender.

It just seems like common sense.

I guess people feel that Bioware needs to be the spear head for social justice and what not which is just too much. They are an RPG studio. Not a Hub for social juctice. It's nice that they inculde everyone, but now they what to use Bioware as a soap box for this sort of thing. This is why you have organizations for this sort of thing. Don't go looking to Bioware to be the spokesperson for equality for all.
Bioware:

That's a good, fair minded response.
Kudos.

[Khayness]

Gwydden wrote...

I'm a man, and I don't consider it sexist at all. I can't even see how someone can jump to that conclusion.

There is no sexism involved men it seems.

A guy here recently pointed out, that it is problematical, that women get a free entrance to certain clubs, while men have to pay a fee. He took it to court and they agreed it is discriminatory. He got ridiculed for two weeks in every media outlet.

[Vandicus]

Gwydden wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

1. Funnily enough, not all women like to dress super conservatively. It should be acceptable for written characters to have traits that exist in real life.

As a matter of fact, most young women I know dress in a rather unconservative way, to put it mildly.

Vandicus wrote...
2. Its a fantasy game. Lots of the clothes will be impractical. Lots of the weapons will be impractical. The setting has *gasp* magic. When you really think about it, a lot of clothes worn today are not necessarily practical. A business suit for instance. What use is there in a tie?

But armor is suposed to keep you alive. I don't think the "there's magic!" argument has any value. It being fantasy doesn't give you a pass to throw common sense out the window.

Vandicus wrote...
3. http://en.wikipedia..../Muscle_cuirass  OMG so impractical, what nutcase would wear armor with a point beside protecting the wearer? Well, we call them humans.

But when you're going to battle, you have to be really stupid to use something that not only doesn't protect you, it also makes things worse for you.

Have you see our weapons? Common sense isn't just thrown out the window for dress code, its thrown out the window for basically all things related to combat. There isn't a strictly practical and realistic combat and equipment system in DA:O or DA2. Compare it to say, Skyrim, where the vast majority of the gear looks appropriate. The gear in DA is all heavily stylized. Which is fine.

General dress code in the game is nonsensical, as are the weapons. There are a few exceptions to the rules where things look practical, but they are exceptions.

*EDIT

For instance

http://dragonage.wik...Champion_(rogue)

Personally I think these are really cool. Spiky and impractical, much like musclearmor is impractical, but the game is stylized, which I think is fine.

Modifié par Vandicus, 18 janvier 2014 - 09:53 .

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm not sure why this debate is still raging when there have been screenshots posted of the upcoming armor sets for Inquisition. They look practical and just fine.

This thread has become overall less about sexism and more about the realistic properties of RPG armor. It seems rather off topic.

Anyway, nap time for real now.

[JordanDH]

nici2412 wrote...

JordanDH wrote...

Strawman!  I call strawman!

 Men are given strong protective armour, women are given breast windows. 

Really?

For the most part, yes.  I was clearly speaking in generalities, obviously there will be a few counter-examples.

Vandicus wrote...

Fenris. *cough*cough

Fenris is a good example and I'm sure a lot of us would like to see the trend continued!

[Killdren88]

Starsyn wrote...

I'm not sure why this debate is still raging when there have been screenshots posted of the upcoming armor sets for Inquisition. They look practical and just fine.

This thread has become overall less about sexism and more about the realistic properties of RPG armor. It seems rather off topic.

Anyway, nap time for real now.

^^^QFT

[Gwydden]

JordanDH wrote...

1. Funnily enough, not all women like to dress super conservatively. It should be acceptable for written characters to have traits that exist in real life.

The problem is that equality can also conflict with verosimilitude. As I said, I know plenty of young women who often wear reavealing, tight shorts and similar clothes. Whether for comfort or to show off I couldn't say. You don't see the same tendency in men, though, and such a thing would most likely be considered ridicoulus. So if you try to depict this situation in a video game, people either are scandalized by the weird outfits that don't seem to fit a particular gender or call you sexist for not being equal.

[Gwydden]

Khayness wrote...

There is no sexism involved men it seems.

A guy here recently pointed out, that it is problematical, that women get a free entrance to certain clubs, while men have to pay a fee. He took it to court and they agreed it is discriminatory. He got ridiculed for two weeks in every media outlet.

I am not saying it's okay for men and not for women. I am saying it's okay for both.

[MattH]

While the Dragon Age series has progressively gotten better each game with this issue, there are still improvements to be made.

I love Isabela as a character and I understand what they were going for with her outfit, but there isn't any justification for leaving her chest so unprotected. You too Varric, you paragon of manliness you, protect that glorious chest of yours! No areas of flesh being revealed where it isn't practical, it's really that simple.

From the little we've seen from Inquistion, it seems to be on the right track.

Modifié par MH19, 18 janvier 2014 - 09:57 .

[In Exile]

Gwydden wrote...
The problem is that equality can also conflict with verosimilitude. As I said, I know plenty of young women who often wear reavealing, tight shorts and similar clothes. Whether for comfort or to show off I couldn't say. You don't see the same tendency in men, though, and such a thing would most likely be considered ridicoulus. So if you try to depict this situation in a video game, people either are scandalized by the weird outfits that don't seem to fit a particular gender or call you sexist for not being equal.

I don't know what part of the world you live, but where I'm from, it's absolutely common for fit guys to wear tight-fitting shirts that emphasize their physique. That's no different from a girl wearing for fitting clothing. 

[Gwydden]

In Exile wrote...

I don't know what part of the world you live, but where I'm from, it's absolutely common for fit guys to wear tight-fitting shirts that emphasize their physique. That's no different from a girl wearing for fitting clothing. 

I was talking about below the waist clothes. The ones men use are always longer and looser around here.

[JordanDH]

Killdren88 wrote...



I guess people feel that Bioware needs to be the spear head for social justice and what not which is just too much. They are an RPG studio. Not a Hub for social juctice. It's nice that they inculde everyone, but now they what to use Bioware as a soap box for this sort of thing. This is why you have organizations for this sort of thing. Don't go looking to Bioware to be the spokesperson for equality for all.

No one's asking them to be a spokesman, but why wouldn't they want to have equal representation for men and women?  What is the problem with wanting Bioware to produce art which treats people as equals?  Equal representation in media is so important.  Of course Bioware could not bother.  It's their right to.  No one's saying Bioware should be getting involved with politics or social justice or anything.  But perpetuating inequalities is not staying neutral.

[efd731]

spirosz wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

spirosz wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yep, barriers and shield are the reason ME characters can walk around in little to no armor, and still be combat effective.

Yes of course. 

Jack must love that warm space air.  

Considering that there is a grand total of ZERO missions in zero-gravity enviroments your point falls flat on its face.

the picture below show a mission done on the planet haestrom which had gravity and atmosphere, but was dangerously irradiated. Still wrong.

[dreamgazer]

In Exile wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
The problem is that equality can also conflict with verosimilitude. As I said, I know plenty of young women who often wear reavealing, tight shorts and similar clothes. Whether for comfort or to show off I couldn't say. You don't see the same tendency in men, though, and such a thing would most likely be considered ridicoulus. So if you try to depict this situation in a video game, people either are scandalized by the weird outfits that don't seem to fit a particular gender or call you sexist for not being equal.

I don't know what part of the world you live, but where I'm from, it's absolutely common for fit guys to wear tight-fitting shirts that emphasize their physique. That's no different from a girl wearing for fitting clothing. 

(cough)

[Neon Rising Winter]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...
Bethany's a mage...

But her top is low cut for... reasons. I think that's what the OP is getting at. And it is weird she has a low cut top considering the lower portion is covered in chainmail.

EDIT: See -

Okay, that has actually made me giggle out loud. I'm torn between being grateful I rarely notice these things in games, and wishing I did for the amusement factor. Dear gods what were they thinking letting that out in the wild.

[Killdren88]

MH19 wrote...

While the Dragon Age series has progressively gotten better each game with this issue, there are still improvements to be made.

I love Isabela as a character and I understand what they were going for with her outfit, but there isn't any justification for leaving her chest so unprotected. You too Varric, you paragon of manliness you, protect that glorious chest of yours! No areas of flesh being revealed where it isn't practical, it's really that simple.

From the little we've seen from Inquistion, it seems to be on the right track.

Well as they have said we can gear our party members now. So people can do whatever they want. You want to be moore realistic and be armored head to toe you can. If not you also can.

[Shevy]

Khayness wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

I'm a man, and I don't consider it sexist at all. I can't even see how someone can jump to that conclusion.

There is no sexism involved men it seems.

A guy here recently pointed out, that it is problematical, that women get a free entrance to certain clubs, while men have to pay a fee. He took it to court and they agreed it is discriminatory. He got ridiculed for two weeks in every media outlet.

This is, funnily enough, seen as normal. A few years ago, when I was in my early-mid twenties I went clubbing nearly every weekend and from time to time some women invited me for a drink at the bar. Many girls I told this laughed about it and said "that's a man's job". Some guys too.

Just another "standard".

[AutumnWitch]

Funny I am a lesbian and belong to many feminist organizations and I HATE the idea of the OP. I can't speak for all women but I choose to emphasise and celebrate my biological differences especially in things like fantasy and RPG. I loathe the idea of stylise wise being the same as the men except with boobs and hips. I can not imagine anything more boring and repressive. I love being a woman and I love playing as a woman.

That doesn't mean I want to run around "giggling" and wearing hardly a scrap of clothing but I will ALWAYS prefer to celebrate our bodies rather than hide them because they make some people uncomfortable. GMAB

[EmperorSahlertz]

JordanDH wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

1. Funnily enough, not all women like to dress super conservatively. It should be acceptable for written characters to have traits that exist in real life.
2. Its a fantasy game. Lots of the clothes will be impractical. Lots of the weapons will be impractical. The setting has *gasp* magic. When you really think about it, a lot of clothes worn today are not necessarily practical. A business suit for instance. What use is there in a tie?
3. http://en.wikipedia..../Muscle_cuirass  OMG so impractical, what nutcase would wear armor with a point beside protecting the wearer? Well, we call them humans.

• No one is claiming otherwise.  But when all the majority of characters of a certain sex are all dressing and behaving a certain way because of what the other sex desires, that's when it's problematic.
• You wouldn't wear a tie to a modern day battlefield.  Just like you wouldn't wear an Orlesian gown to Thedas battlefield.
• No one's saying that armour can't be attractive, but it should also be practical.  Your example seems to be have been primarily for generals and deities, i.e. people not doing a great deal of fighting themselves.

1: Which obviously cannot be aimed at Dragon Age, since females in this game actually generally wear sensible armour. So what exactly is the issue?

2: We barely wear any armour in modern battlefields anyway. We got a helmet and a fragmentation vest, neither of which are super effective at stopping bullets.

3: So far the vast majority of all Dragon Age armours has been "practical", though not realistic,

[efd731]

efd731 wrote...

spirosz wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

spirosz wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yep, barriers and shield are the reason ME characters can walk around in little to no armor, and still be combat effective.

Yes of course. 
Jack must love that warm space air.  

Considering that there is a grand total of ZERO missions in zero-gravity enviroments your point falls flat on its face.

the picture below show a mission done on the planet haestrom which had gravity and atmosphere,
but was dangerously irradiated. Still wrong spiroz

[leaguer of one]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Funny I am a lesbian and belong to many feminist organizations and I HATE the idea of the OP. I can't speak for all women but I choose to emphasise and celebrate my biological differences especially in things like fantasy and RPG. I loathe the idea of stylise wise being the same as the men except with boobs and hips. I can not imagine anything more boring and repressive. I love being a woman and I love playing as a woman.

That doesn't mean I want to run around "giggling" and wearing hardly a scrap of clothing but I will ALWAYS prefer to celebrate our bodies rather than hide them because they make some people uncomfortable. GMAB

Modifié par leaguer of one, 18 janvier 2014 - 10:03 .

[KC_Prototype]

Dragon Age is doing just fine on sexualization. And Bethany's outfit is great. Miranda had ass and Bethany has ******, nothing is wrong with the clothing. Also, why must u complain on the little things that aren't hurting the game?

[In Exile]

Gwydden wrote...
I was talking about below the waist clothes. The ones men use are always longer and looser around here.

You mean pants? Because there are tight-fitting pants for dudes, and dudes wear them. If you mean skirts vs. pants, well, there's no equivalent of skirts for dudes. 

[General TSAR]

The Scots disagree.