29 réponses à ce sujet

[CPK87]

 Hey there,

I'll start by introducing myself;  I am finishing grad school as a Level Designer - I've worked in various editors/engines including Skyrim Creation Kit, Unreal Editor 3, Gears of War Editor, UDK, and HL2 Source.  I used to play NWN1 around 10 years ago (loved the PWs especially), so I am very familiar with the game.  I did mess around in the Toolset a little as well, although I never got very deep into it.  On the other hand, I've never played NWN2.  I have done a fair amount of research on the two different Toolsets, and I seem to have gathered the following info on them (please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, or add anything else I ought to know about them to the list):

- NWN2 Toolset has most of what NWN1 had, plus a bit more
- NWN2 Toolset has a steeper learning curve than NWN1
- NWN2 looks better graphically
- NWN2 is poorly optimized (resource hog, laggy) - has this been improved?
- NWN1 has better animation sets
- NWN2 has poor camera controls, although it seems there are ways to improve them
- NWN1 seems to have a larger developer community
- NWN2 has more advanced AI
- NWN2 has a terrain editor, whereas NWN1 only has tile sets


For my final project, I would like to work in one of the NWN toolsets.  I'm looking to create just a short (around 15-30 minute) level/quest and hope to do some of my own scripting/systems design to make it unique from the standard NWN campaigns.  However, I consider myself pretty much a newbie in both (again, never even touched NWN2 and only scraped the surface of NWN1's Toolset).  

Which Toolset, in your opinions, is best overall for designing a level?  Scripting?  Which one is more flexible for modifying existing systems such as items, stats, spells/feats/skills, characters/enemies, adding new mechanics, etc.?  Are there any other facts about either editor that I ought to know before making a decision?  

I realize that I'm asking this in the NWN2 forum, only because I assume the people here have worked in both Toolsets.  Please be objective in your responses, as I am more interested in the facts than personal preferences (although both are welcome ).  Thanks in advance!

[kamal_]

Are you being graded on the scripting/systems, or how well the map looks/flows?

[CPK87]

I'm more concerned with how the map looks as a portfolio piece than the grade - on that note, I'm trying to sell myself more as a systems designer than a world builder. So while aesthetics are still important, they don't take top priority. My primary goal is to create fun and interesting gameplay that shows off my abilities to create balanced systems.

[Tchos]

More info on NWN2:

It allows fully-controllable party members, as in the Infinity Engine games and Dragon Age: Origins, unlike the henchmen of NWN1, to whom you can only give general orders.  This opens up many different gameplay avenues.

For scripting, NWN2 allows parameter-based scripts in conversations, allowing you to make scripts that work in a wider variety of situations, whereas in NWN1, you would need to create new scripts for any new parameters.

The NWN2 UI is fully customisable with XML, and you can create any new UI items you want. The NWN1 UI can have its elements retextured, but I believe that's all.

Also, NWN2 includes tinting and scaling (uniform and non-uniform) of objects, allowing more variety.  In NWN1, colour variation requires creating a new item with a new texture, and it doesn't allow scaling.

SoZ party chat (added in the 2nd expansion) allows you to use any of your party members in a conversation, switching between them at will, having different party members speak up if they have special abilities, skills, or other attributes that give them special dialogue. In NWN1, the main character was the only one who could speak to NPCs, and therefore needed to have all of the necessary skills, social and otherwise.

I've created numerous new scripting systems to add new gameplay mechanics in NWN2, and there are many more that I would like to add later. It's well customisable to use as a portfolio piece, I would say.

It's good that you want to use it to show your systems and scripting ability, since neither game have looks as their strong point.

Modifié par Tchos, 18 janvier 2014 - 09:52 .

[CPK87]

Thanks, Tchos! That's a lot of helpful info.

NWN2 does sound like a pretty good way to go - as far as community and resources, is this the main place, or are there other sites I should be aware of? Also, having never played NWN2, is it different enough from the original that I might struggle in designing in it without spending extensive time playing the game?

Lastly, are the parts about it being poorly optimized and laggy, as well as the Toolset having a steeper learning curve than the first, still pretty accurate? Or have those things been addressed over the years?

[kamal_]

This is the main place. Plus the irc channel.

The toolset has a steeper learning curve, but you can do more with areas and be more detailed.

The poor optimization thing is resolved by throwing more hardware at it :-) But really I built a complicated campaign on a video card that cost $100 four years ago.

[Tchos]

I think the learning curve is mainly aimed at the exterior areas, but if you've made exteriors in any Elder Scrolls Construction Kit, or the Dragon Age toolset, then it'll be old hat for you.

Also, the NWN2 toolset has a good plugin architecture, and many useful plugins to aid the building process. I don't believe the NWN1 toolset has this ability.

There are three major sites that house custom content: The IGN Vault, Rolo's New Vault, and the Neverwinter Nexus. There's also a NWN2 wiki full of useful information on modding the game, as well as script examples, numerous good PDF guides and reference works. For discussion, however, you'll want to come here. (Sorry for the lack of links.)

Playing the game would help in seeing examples of things that can be done, after which you'll know where to look to see how they were done. Each campaign is rather different in content, especially Storm of Zehir, which added many new features.

Most bugs have been fixed, especially if you use the NWN2 Client Extension, which also fixes some reasons for lagginess. The main reason for poor performance is that it was designed at a time when it looked like the CPU speed of single processor computers would continue to increase. Certain other games of that time also made this mistake. Instead, we now use multiple processors, and many computers don't include any one processor that meets or exceeds the requirements for the game. Since it doesn't have multithreading ability, this means it can only use one of the processors. However, with a good video card, my 2-core computer runs it quite well with a good frame rate.

[CPK87]

Amazing. Thanks to all of you, this has all been very informative and helpful. It looks like NWN2 is the way to go, so I'll start familiarizing myself with it now. Wish me luck!

[Tchos]

Good luck, and since I have a little more time, here are a couple of links.

For initial familiarisation, you should play the short prequel module that comes with the game, called Uninvited Guests, and then follow the official toolset tutorial that breaks it down and explains how it works.  The module is accessible from the main screen via New Game>New Module, rather than the New Game>New Campaign that you'd use to start any of the main campaigns.  The tutorial is an HTML tutorial that you can access inside the toolset under the Help menu (Choose Help>Help), or directly from the hard drive if you can find it.

Next, I recommend reading Obsidian's builder guides to the new features introduced in Storm of Zehir, accessible here:
Party creation and party conversations
Overland map
Crafting

Finally, get Bob Hall's toolset guide.  This is the latest edition, from this past September.  This is well-researched and extensively revised, and contains detailed information on all aspects of the toolset.

Many other tutorials for specific subjects can be found here.

[CPK87]

Good to know, I'll take a look at them. Thanks again!

[kevL]

If you come across something that doesn't seem to be working correctly, or at all, or the way you'd think it should, ask around here (after putting some effort in, mainly to know what to ask about)...

2, for example, that come to mind are
- flagging items as 'droppable': can lead to pseudo-unpredictable behavior.
- The Spells & SpecialAbilities tabs for characters/NPCs has only minimal functionality, despite the comprehensive looking fields (even the number of memorizations can get reset to 1, unwittingly)


as has been pointed out elsewhere, NwN is far more robust; but things-executive per NwN2 went through a lawsuit after the release of SoZ -- and that was the kibosh we all face now. That said, a healthy measure of determination and patience is as much an asset as a good videocard,



ps. Make backups... hourly.
pps. but not with the Autosave bug feature

Modifié par kevL, 19 janvier 2014 - 09:50 .

[Loki_999]

 And save your modules in directory mode. Saving in regular mode is a good way to get a corrupted module.

[Dann-J]

I always work in module mode, and have had no problems so far. I tend to make sure each individual module file is no more than 300 Mb at the most though (preferably closer to 200 Mb). I also prefer to include many interconnected smaller areas, rather than fewer larger areas, with as many of them indoor tilesets as possible (caves, mines, crypts, etc). It's those big outdoor areas that cause the most problems.

[Tchos]

I, on the other hand, have lost work due to corrupted module files before I switched to always using directory mode, which I would call experience rather than paranoia.  One notable instance was when the toolset crashed during a save.  I haven't feared toolset crashes since the day I switched.

Additionally, when in directory mode, you can save single elements that you have open and are working on ("save current view", such as a conversation file, or a single area), instead of having to save the entire module every time into the .mod file.  That's much faster on large modules.

I also find it more convenient to manipulate the contents of the module from outside the toolset in directory mode, rather than having to import/export elements from the .mod file through the toolset, or use NWN2packer to extract or add items.

[kevL]

+1^10

I went through a brief phase where the .Git (i think) kept getting truncated as the TS crashed. Fortunately i just kept replacing it from my backup folder, and all my script changes etc. all stayed safe. I wouldn't want to lose not only the .Git but everything else I'd been doing....

not sure if it was RAM or .NET or what. But it was lesson #5 in Don't Push It too far.

[kamal_]

I lost a month or two of work of Path of Evil due to .mod. I learned my lesson. I've had problems since, but in directory mode it only means one file gets lost.

[CPK87]

Tchos wrote...

Good luck, and since I have a little more time, here are a couple of links.

For initial familiarisation, you should play the short prequel module that comes with the game, called Uninvited Guests, and then follow the official toolset tutorial that breaks it down and explains how it works.  The module is accessible from the main screen via New Game>New Module, rather than the New Game>New Campaign that you'd use to start any of the main campaigns.  The tutorial is an HTML tutorial that you can access inside the toolset under the Help menu (Choose Help>Help), or directly from the hard drive if you can find it.

Next, I recommend reading Obsidian's builder guides to the new features introduced in Storm of Zehir, accessible here:
Party creation and party conversations
Overland map
Crafting

Finally, get Bob Hall's toolset guide.  This is the latest edition, from this past September.  This is well-researched and extensively revised, and contains detailed information on all aspects of the toolset.

Many other tutorials for specific subjects can be found here.

For some reason, when I try to open the Help menu in Toolset, nothing comes up.  Might it have something to do with downloading it from GOG.com?  

Edit:  Running as Adminstrator fixed it - nevermind!

Modifié par CPK87, 20 janvier 2014 - 01:26 .

[Tchos]

Good to know, and I've noted it for future reference.

[bealzebub]

I'd like to chime in on the .mod vs. directory issue.
After several .mod corruptions and having to return to my last saved copy, I realized that if you save in dir. form and get a corruption some how, you can find it relatively easy using a program like WinMerge to compare the folder to a saved copy, and just replace the bad stuff. Instead of everything you've been doing since you last made a backup.
I hate to think how many hours went down the tubes before I figured that out.
You can also go into the dir. folder and move/open scripts and such without having to open the toolset to do a export-import.

[rjshae]

I had some bad corruption issues with older versions of the Toolset, but it's been fairly reliable since I've been at recent patch levels. Not sure whether I've just been lucky; I still use the Export to make backup copies and on occasion I re-import when something funky starts to happen.

Modifié par rjshae, 21 janvier 2014 - 04:37 .

[Dann-J]

Whether or not the toolset plays nicely with you probably depends on a complex interplay of hardware and software variables. Just a slight difference in processor, RAM, operating system, graphics drivers, etc might be enough to tip the scales in favour of the toolset throwing a hissy fit at every opportunity.

[MokahTGS]

DannJ wrote...

Whether or not the toolset plays nicely with you probably depends on a complex interplay of hardware and software variables. Just a slight difference in processor, RAM, operating system, graphics drivers, etc might be enough to tip the scales in favour of the toolset throwing a hissy fit at every opportunity.

This is quite true, as my new system is much more stable with NWN2 than my old one.  I also save everything in Directory mode instead of .mod after losing countless hours of work to corruption.