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[xSTONEYx187x]

So, these thrall races that were serving the Leviathans' built synthetics which rebelled, so the Levithans' constructed a synthethic to keep them in check, this synthetic turned on the Leviathans' and started to cull them, producing the first Reaper, Harbinger. 

That's the jist of it, yes? 

But how did one synthetic/AI construct decimate a WHOLE race of these super powerful Leviathans'? 

Modifié par xSTONEYx187x, 19 janvier 2014 - 06:31 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

Apparently the AI created drones to help it, whether these were Reapers without the Organic slush or something else is unknown; however, I guess the Catalyst had a lot of them in order to defeat something as great as the Leviathans rather quickly. Which raises the question why the Leviathans never kept some sort of oversight for the Catalyst when they knew it was something dangerous.

[DeinonSlayer]

The synthetic was given control of "pawns" for data collection, and these "pawns," whatever they were, were used against Leviathan.

Make of it what you will. Seems to me the whole point of the DLC was to retroactively foreshadow the existence of Starbrat.

[cap and gown]

There is also the element of surprise. Just look what the Japanese and Germans were able to accomplish by launching surprise attacks during WWII.

[CronoDragoon]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Apparently the AI created drones to help it, whether these were Reapers without the Organic slush or something else is unknown; however, I guess the Catalyst had a lot of them in order to defeat something as great as the Leviathans rather quickly. Which raises the question why the Leviathans never kept some sort of oversight for the Catalyst when they knew it was something dangerous.

The Catalyst does say regarding the Reapers, "My creators gave them form. I give them function. They in turn give me purpose." That could possibly hint that the Catalyst's pawns were the Reaper constructs, or that after the Catalyst took over he started building the Reapers to look like the Leviathans.

I favor the former, because the Catalyst really has no reason to build all the Reaper shells to look like Leviathans, whereas the Leviathans - arrogant narcissists they are - would probably love synthetics running around that looked like them.

[Obadiah]

That makes the Reaper cycles a twisted parody of the original Leviathan civilization. Leviathan and thralls control universe, and Reapers and husks destroy it.

[shodiswe]

The element of surprise and the Leviathans hybris.

The Leviathans greatest fault is their belief that they are above all other life. The Synthetic threat didn't apply to them, nothing compares to their APEX glory.

It must have come as a shock to them, how could it attack them?

They might be incredibly powerful and awsome in many ways. But they forgot they are still mortal.

[Sion1138]

Confused, you say?

Yeah, that'll happen.

[NeonFlux117]

The narrative of leviathan.....

media.animevice.com/uploads/3/33329/588966-picco__s_facepalm_by_leviathan_16.jpg



Even Piccolo knows it's dumb.

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 20 janvier 2014 - 12:44 .

[Singu]

Indoctrinated Leviathan's would be the obvious answer I would think. Harbinger is just a Leviathan Mrk 2.0(identical size as a Leviathan) totally under the Catalyst's control. I doubt Leviathan's where mortal though, and very little of them was still organic. The sheer size and the fact that they still exist all these hundreds of millions(if not billions of years) after their downfall would suggest that they're all some Ûber beings that has designed their way beyond organic evolution and in all practical sense they are just as immortal as Harbinger or the Catalyst.

taken from masseffect.wikia:It is possible that the Leviathans further enhanced themselves cybernetically, allowing them to use element zero to travel through space and breathe air with the use of filtration systems. They might even have modified themselves with biotic amplifiers. In addition, their faster-than-light communication pulses require precise control with technology completely unknown to modern science.

[ImaginaryMatter]

shodiswe wrote...

The element of surprise and the Leviathans hybris.

The Leviathans greatest fault is their belief that they are above all other life. The Synthetic threat didn't apply to them, nothing compares to their APEX glory.

It must have come as a shock to them, how could it attack them?

They might be incredibly powerful and awsome in many ways. But they forgot they are still mortal.

The problem I have with the idea that the Leviathans thought themselves so high and mighty that they would be somehow immune to an unrestrained Catalyst, is the notion that if they had such hubris you would think the last thing they would want to do is admit to a problem they could not solve themselves.

[Almostfaceman]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The problem I have with the idea that the Leviathans thought themselves so high and mighty that they would be somehow immune to an unrestrained Catalyst, is the notion that if they had such hubris you would think the last thing they would want to do is admit to a problem they could not solve themselves.

That and/or designing a machine without safeguards to keep the machine from doing them any harm - like the blocks designed into EDI for example.

[CronoDragoon]

Almostfaceman wrote...

That and/or designing a machine without safeguards to keep the machine from doing them any harm - like the blocks designed into EDI for example.

But the blocks didn't work on EDI, either. I realize it's a cop-out to say we don't really know how the Catalyst is programmed, what specific rules and limitations were in place, etc, but sadly it's also true.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 janvier 2014 - 04:25 .

[Almostfaceman]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

That and/or designing a machine without safeguards to keep the machine from doing them any harm - like the blocks designed into EDI for example.

But the blocks didn't work on EDI, either. I realize it's a cop-out to say we don't really know how the Catalyst is programmed, what specific rules and limitations were in place, etc, but sadly it's also true.

Yeah the blocks did work, they had to be removed by an outside agency (Joker). I suppose that could have happened, though the Leviathan are or were more advanced than the designers of EDI which theoretically would make such a thing more difficult than pushing some buttons on frigate. 

[Mcfly616]

The Catalyst turned the thrall races against Leviathan. It explains this.

[Iakus]

Because it cannot be defeated conventionally, of course!

[ImaginaryMatter]

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst turned the thrall races against Leviathan. It explains this.

The Leviathan said the Catalyst, "created an army of pawns," furthermore the Leviathans still had control over the Thrall species as that is they used them to hide evidence of their survival.

[xSTONEYx187x]

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst turned the thrall races against Leviathan. It explains this.

They had the entire galaxy under their proverbial thumb. How could such a super advanced race be brought to near extinction though? These beings have lifespans that could be BILLIONS of years in lenght. They also had those power sources that turned "whatever Reaper lands on their planet into a slave of Leviathan" (paraphrasing) and we also saw how it controlled the Brutes. 

[JamesFaith]

xSTONEYx187x wrote...

They had the entire galaxy under their proverbial thumb. How could such a super advanced race be brought to near extinction though? These beings have lifespans that could be BILLIONS of years in lenght. They also had those power sources that turned "whatever Reaper lands on their planet into a slave of Leviathan" (paraphrasing) and we also saw how it controlled the Brutes. 

Question is when they got these power? They lived hundreds of million years in fear from Reapers and most of their technological advance probably focused on better hiding and countermeasures against them. But how effective would these powers be when their nation is already reduced to few tousands or hunderds?

Also how many Reapers and husks they are able to control at once? Such powers are good in fight one-to-one, but would Leviathan survive fight with ten Reapers? I would used analogy to precise sniper and flat field with invading army. Sniper can kill one soldier with every bullet but inevitably he will be overwhelmed by sheer numbers of invaders. 

[N7Gold]

xSTONEYx187x wrote...

So, these thrall races that were serving the Leviathans' built synthetics which rebelled, so the Levithans' constructed a synthethic to keep them in check, this synthetic turned on the Leviathans' and started to cull them, producing the first Reaper, Harbinger. 

That's the jist of it, yes? 

But how did one synthetic/AI construct decimate a WHOLE race of these super powerful Leviathans'? 

That's basically it. I don't understand how the AI could harvest so many Leviathans himself to create Harbinger either. Even the pawns he created to spy on the development of every advanced civilization wouldn't do much good either. I'm not sure if my theory is correct, but I think the Leviathans helped him do it, knowing that no matter how crude and unethical his methods get, the AI is still doing what they created him to do. After all, they did say they made no mistakes. It's pretty clear to me that the AI and the Leviathans have that "end justifies the means" kind of thinking. With that in mind, I think the Leviathans reluctantly, but willingly helped the AI harvest their own race to create Harbinger knowing that one day they will bend the galaxy to their will again once the AI's work is done.

Modifié par N7Gold, 21 janvier 2014 - 12:31 .

[JPN17]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Apparently the AI created drones to help it, whether these were Reapers without the Organic slush or something else is unknown; however, I guess the Catalyst had a lot of them in order to defeat something as great as the Leviathans rather quickly. Which raises the question why the Leviathans never kept some sort of oversight for the Catalyst when they knew it was something dangerous.

Leviathan is so contradictory to the ME3 story. Apparently the catalyst was able to overpower the leviathans despite the fact we know leviathan can destroy a reaper. How exactly did god kid defeat the leviathans? And since it somehow must have happened, why does the catalyst use reapers to harvest now instead of those previous constructs which results in getting some reapers killed when the catalyst's supposed goal is preservation? It makes less than zero sense.

Singu wrote...

Indoctrinated Leviathan's would be the obvious answer I would think.

Maybe, but my interpretation of leviathan's dialogue suggests indoctrination wasn't really prevalent in harvests until quite a bit after god kid turned on the leviathans.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Ya, it kind of miffs me that the end of Leviathan basically exists to justify the Catalyst's existence.