[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...
[quote]Cap. Obvious wrote...
[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...
[quote]Cap. Obvious wrote...
[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...
[quote]AresKeith wrote...
[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...
[quote]AresKeith wrote...
I just hope they include the Jensaari somewhere, so atleast more remnants of Grey Jedi's can stay canon[/quote]
Erm not the greatest student of the lore but that's the Force User Group that was mostly destroyed by the Inquistors and Vader and later rebuilt and went to the Jedi on Yavin for training yeah?
Mixture of Sith and Jedi disciplines if i recall; Don't have contempt for them like i do for the Jedi i'l say that much.
Wouldn't mind them keeping their existance although my Allegiance is forever with the Order of the Lords of the Sith.
Power; Unlimited Power!
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Yea, that's them
While I like the Sith, I actually love Grey Jedi's more than both factions
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A Gray Jedi has at least somewhat cast off the Hypocrisy and lies of the Jedi Order so there is at least hope for them i agree.
Like i said i lacked contempt for them when most Jedi have it.
They preach about how all life is sacred and then at the proper situation they approve and even lead into battle a slave army? Every "Jedi" Worthy of the title walked from the order the day that BS was handed down.
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The Jedi never lead a "slave army." You might believe that the Clones were a "slave army" if you were brain-washed by Karen Traviss propaganda. That lady is one of the worst Star Wars authors. I hear even her Halo books are horrible.
[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...
Still can't forgive them for messing Asajj Ventress she is not a Dathomiri! She is Rattataki!
:/ Hopefully the entire series will get labeled "non canon" along with those awful TFU games.
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Making her Dathomiri doesn't mess with her. It actually makes her more interesting. In fact, muchof her EU backstory has been left mostly in tact. I'm glad with the direction they took Asajj Ventress in the show. She's incredibly well-developed and one of my most favorite TCW characters.
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Karen actually had a valid point with pointing out the blatant hypocrisy and labeling it "not a slave army" when in all realities it is is hardly only restricted to her. What exactly do you call a man who has no voting rights, no civilian rights, no orginizations to protect his national or even plantery identity? Face it bro the Jedi were handed a situation were they either could see the corrupt little cesspit they allowed to flunder for countless generations get its just deserts for whoring out the outer rim to the Cartels and every corperate entity with a spare credit.
Honestly calling it brainwashing is laughable too; I have been a follower of the EU a long time before Karen came about, I saw the Clone Wars shaping up a long time before any of the details were known and yet i am to be called brainwashed? That's adorable, You program absolute loyalty, You mass produce soldiers with out rights or representation and then you label it anything but what it is?
Why?
Do you foster so high an opinion of the Jedi that they wouldn't engage in slavery to preserve their beloved "Democracy"?
To the issue of Ventress; And no it really just muddles an already decent backstory and it wasn't done for any good reason other then to link her to the horrid and really overblown plot linking basically every one to that coven of sexist witches.
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Karen made a lot of BS points. There's nothing to suggest that the Clones are a slave army because there's nothing to suggest that they're retracted payment for their services, which is until the war is over. At best, their military conscripts. Certainly not for life. How do you know he has they have lack rights when there's nothing to suggest so? And why would you listen to an author who's clear intent is to idolize the Mandos into some master race (read: Mando Sues) while making the Jedi into chumps, even though the Jedi have put the Clones' lives above even themselves and treat them like human beings? In addition, what happened to Republic was not the Jedi's fault. They could either defend it from a bunch of corporate oligarchs like the Separitists so there could actually be a Republic to repair or they could do nothing, in which case they're just aiding the Republic's destruction.
The fact that you recite what you've just said without any proof shows that you have a skewed image of the GAR as well as the Jedi Order during the Clone Wars. I've been a follower of the EU for a LONG time and I know many other EU fans that don't hold up Traviss's claims as fact. The Jedi never engaged in slavery (as there wasn't any proof that the Clones were slaves to begin with) and were simply leading the armies of the Republic, which wasn't just comprised of Clones.
The EU backstory of Ventress wasn't muddled, barely even touched, as a matter of fact. I'm glad that she become linked to the Nightsisters, as it only served to heighten her appeal.
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So your defense is more traviss bashing...When in fact Clones Saw usage well past the Clone Wars until the Cloner Rebellion on Kamino in which they were phased out in favor of Birth Born recuirts besides Vader's Fist. So you see Clone usage for the newly formed Empire well into its first few Years of Life, There wasn't a stopping point for their service. And as far as i am aware? They weren't paid, They didn't vote, They never lived any life beyond the service if they didn't leave it.
Not to mention you have Clone Officers serving well into the Empire's Tenure such as Cody and Bly (Cody according to some accounts actually saw the battle of Endor) So my point being this, Even when the Ranks were flooded with Birth Born recuirts, and the Clones were being phased out (Not much is spoken of as for how they were phased out mind you but given Palpatine was running the show i doubt it was a very humanitarian solution) You still had clones in service in certain junctures that sort of negates the whole image of them being around merely to fight this one conflict, this one war.
I admit she STRESSED the point; And highlighted it above near everything else but that doesn't magically make her wrong, it doesn't magically make the Jedi not Hypocrites forsaking their oathes the second their back was to the wall.
And those many other EU fans clearly can paint the Jedi as Paragons as they wish; There are many as myself who view the Jedi as hypocrites the day they started to use a Slave Army, Furthermore Several of them, Myself included were voicing these complaints ages before Traviss began writing the Clone Commando Novels...Just for the other spectrum, given Zahn's musing on the Clone Wars way back in the 90s through the Thrawn Saga.
And how is Karen wrong for wanting to praise the greatest warrior group within SW? Calling them Mandosues really falls flat on its face when the majority of the galaxy holds them rightfully so in a fairly fearful light, considering well...They have a tendency to beat jedi to death...with their bare hands.
I am not a fan of the Clone Commando Novels, I don't view them as the worst to filter into the EU; But i am not a fan of them. But that said there is nothing to suggest with the lore that Armies purchased from Kamino were anything more then what Traviss and a few others suggested within the EU- Slaves.
And you had just as many Jedi who viewed the clones as tools, Subhumans or what did Vos call them again? Oh Yes "Plastic Droids" That's cute isn't it?
And there wasn't a point or a need for Ventress's place of orgin to be changed.
She was doing FINE for the years and years she was of Ratakai.
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My defense wasn't more Traviss bashing, as the rest of my post shows. Also, the Clones getting phased out until the Kamino Rebellion after the Clone Wars has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about (and it's now non-canon). There is nothing to suggest that the Clones kept up their service after the Empire was formed and you're talking about crimes the Empire did, not crimes during the Clone Wars. On another note, it's now been established with the Star Wars Rebels series that the entire army is completely made up of volunteers. Also, absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense. There's nothing to suggest that they didn't have rights or that they didn't get payed and the Jedi certainly had nothing to do in that regard.
Bly and Cody don't matter. Again, there were no conscripts in the Empire and the EU is non-canon. Even if there were Clone Officers after the Clone Wars, it was optional.
Furthermore, Traviss didn't simply stress the point. She made the point up. I'm fine with the Jedi being criticized, but Traviss was criticizing. She simply portrayed them as people that they weren't: hypocrites. They never were and their flaws certainly was having some slave army.
Again, you say the Jedi "used" a "slave army". But this is not the case, for reasons I've just brought up. Also, Zahn's novels came out before Attack of the Clones, hence why the information about it wasn't up to date.
Beating Jedi to death with their bare hands is definitely the quality of a Mary Sue. Traviss most definitely exaggerated the capabilities of a Mandalorian and made them almost boring and cliched as a result. They are NOT the most fearsome warrior group. One of the best, but not the be-all and end-all of warriors in the galaxy. I remember how many Mandalorian fans got very pissed off with the way the Mandalorians were portrayed in Traviss's novels (and some non-Traviss novels), but I'm glad that not all Mandalorians in the EU were potrayed as essentially over-powered Klingons.
Again, you bring up the EU. It is non-canon. There "suggestions" and their opinions don't matter in this case. Whatever Jedi said in the EU about clones, about them being sub-humans or whatever, simply doesn't hold up because it's not canon anymore.
Also, Asajj Ventress is even better now with her modified backstory than she was before.
One other thing: if you're going to continue this argument with me, please carry it into a PM debate with me. I don't want to run the risk of derailing this thread.
[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...
[quote]Cap. Obvious wrote...
[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...
[quote]Kaiser Arian wrote...
The Clone Army is created for the "Highest Order" that is Chancellor Palpatine to be his tool, not Jedi Order.[/quote]
Not agruing that point.
I am pointing out that the Jedi Order took part in using these men for their own gain; They were handed a blaster and used it.
i am pointing out that despite their code they abandon its teaching the moment the mood strikes them to do so.
I am speaking of the taint of the old republic sinking even into the supposedly pristine and pure Jedi Order; Reverance for all life? Not for Life that was created in a vat it seems, despite it being sapient, Aware and having Cognition better then most organic life.
Basically in my perspective?
The Jedi Order allowed the Republic to harken back to the Pre Republic Days given that its been nearly thirty thousand years since Slavery was allowed in the majority of the galaxy.
It violated its code on its fundimental teachings and yet hardly any Jedi walked, and the scant few that did? More oft then not returned.
Its disgusting to me, and Karen has hardly been the only author to...Point out the Jedi's complete and utter failing at that moment in history.
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Except the Clones weren't just "handed a blaster"; they were actually taught to train how to fight in combat and very effectively. The Jedi fought tooth and nail to defend their own men and there's nothing to suggest that they were ever used for their own gain. After all, how could they, when the Clone Army wasn't even there's?
They never abondoned their Jedi Code. If anything, they became too strict with it. Yes, they did indeed have reverance for all life and that includes life created in a vat. That's why they went through all the trouble to keep them alive, saved them, and treated them like actual people, so much so that it created lasting friendships. So, yes, it is basically in your perspective and that's all it is.
Furthermore, the Jedi don't have any influence in galactic politics. Even if they sat out the war, the Republic would still use the Clone army. How could they not? There was a bunch of maniacal plutocrats with entire droid armies right next door. It certainly wouldn't be worst thing the Republic has done considering the fact that there's nothing to suggest in the story that the Clones are slaves.
The Jedi Code wasn't violated. If anything, they were fulfilling their duty.
Your right in that other authors have criticized the Jedi. However, Karen never did that. She demonized the Jedi, making them into a bunch of slavers, completely untrue. Not only did she demonize them, she made the Mandalorians into some Mary Sue race. While other authors have pointed out valid criticisms of the Jedi, she made up problems that weren't there. She is one of the worst authors of the EU, without a doubt, although this thread isn't about her.
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Erm The Clones were tools for the Senate, Tools for the Republic and then Tools for the Empire; What exactly did you garner from some of them going through twenty plus years of Military service that they actually had rights? That they could eventually leave? Crud you had Normal Humanoids in service from the clone wars on to late in the Empire due to "Stop loss orders" Which effectively negated the "rights" of civilians such as Pilots, Doctors and what have you.
Ultimately you can pretty up their position all you like; When it comes down to it? When you can not dictate your own actions, When you are the beck and call of a Master, You are a Slave.
And again need i remind you of Vos? Sure you had some Generals that actually treated them with respect, Like people but you had plenty more then that just used them like canon fodder, and some that didn't even view them as "alive".
So they cherry picked the Code, They Ignored the obvious corruption of the world around them and defended a Republic that even Obi-Wan himself eventually admitted wasn't worth defending. So Yes if they had actually stuck to their principles, their own teachings they would have sat out that war, It wouldn't be the only one that century that sat out. They gave up alot of their militaristic tendencies after the Army of Light was disbanded ages before.
And again you bring up her reverence for the Mandolorians...I really don't see what that has to do with the topic of the moment; I would point out that they are the Best Fighters in the galaxy not because of any Mary-Sue Fandom but because their warrior tradition well pre-dates the republic.
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Palpatine certainly might have seen the Clones as tools, but tools of the Empire? No. Soldiers under the Empire were volunteers exclusively. It certainly wasn't twenty-plus years of service. Sure, there might have been some that stuck around, but not unwillingly. Also, there's nothing to suggest that they didn't have rights. Again, they were conscripts, at best. Also, the "stop loss orders" are an EU invention. Again, the EU is non-canon.
Again, at most, their conscripts.
Also, again with Vos. You're using the EU. Jedi treated their Clones like actual human beings.
Furthermore, there's nothing to suggest that the Jedi cherry-picked the Code. If anything they stuck too close to it. And they certainly did not ignore the obvious corruption in the galaxy and were trying their best to counter it. But the truth is that the Jedi can't alter politics. They can stop crime, defend senators, save people from a collapsing building, etc, etc. but that only goes so far. Even they work under the law. They defended a Republic that was better than the Separatists, because that Republic could still be saved. The Jedi had very good reasons for fighting in the war, one of them being that they're supposed to defend the Republic. Also, again, you bring up the EU by bringing up the Army of Light.
Also, I've brought up Karen Traviss because many misconceptions about the Jedi and the Clone Army come from her. Yes, the Mandalorians have a warrior tradition. However, many EU authors exaggerated their abilities, which only made them face-palmy. You can give a fictional people a warrior-tradition without making them a bunch of over-powered Mary Sues.
Again, I'd ask that we continue this on PM, as I don't want to derail the thread, which is precisely why I'm submitting my second reply on this post.
Modifié par Cap. Obvious, 12 février 2014 - 02:32 .
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