335 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Edit:
There was a clarifying thread one year ago. What David Gaider apparently meant when he said there won't be any atheist protagonists is that there won't be any dialogue options to express disbelief in higher powers. That doesn't necessarily mean that there will be unavoidable lines which express belief. Not being able to express an attitude towards gods sucks, but it's better than being forced to express belief. In any case, the tension between Morrigan's stated beliefs in DAO and David Gaider's statement about her beliefs remains, as does the possibility that religious beliefs will be implausibly tied to the expression of certain personality traits. Paraphrasing is still evil.

[Original post text]

Recently, someone posted a link to this old tweet by David Gaider which I hadn't known before. For those who don't follow links, it says neither Morrigan nor the qunari are atheist, and it was a follow-up to the claim that there won't be any atheist protagonists.

Now I find this rather irritating, not just because I claim sovereignity over my protagonists' attitudes towards gods in any role-playing game I play, but especially in the face of Morrigan's statement in DAO that she doesn't believe in any sort of higher power. She says that to Leliana as part of a companion banter:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?


This topic comes up up several times in companion banter, and nowhere does Morrigan leave any doubt about it: she doesn't believe in higher powers. I don't recall what WoT has to say about the qunari, but I'm pretty sure they don't believe in any higher power either (The DA wiki says so and they're usually correct based on published material). So David Gaider's statement needs clarification. I was occupied with ME3 when that tweet was made and I don't know if there was any clarification forthcoming. If so, I'd appreciate it if someone would tell me.

Having said that, DG's statement could be technically true in some sense without claiming its own sovereignity over the player character's religiousness, for it would be rather odd for anyone with any sort of deeper knowledge on Thedas to deny the existence of the Old Gods, and it's become rather apparent that Flemeth may belong to the same domain of life. It would be plausible that the player character can't deny their existence, but is still free in their attitude towards these entities. Morrigan could believe, for instance, that the Old Gods, while certainly powerful, aren't "higher powers" rather than "greater powers", denying them any meaningful divinity in form of things like authority over mortal's lives or moral significance. However, that leaves some doubt as to the applicability of the term "god" to these entities. If "god" is nothing but a shorthand for beings instrincially bigger than mortals and mysteriously powerful, then there is no problem and some real gods exist, which means that it's not plausible to deny their existence and thus not plausible to be atheist, but that leaves the question what happens if mortals acquire such powers. Do they become gods? If, on the other hand, the term "god" does imply some kind of worship, then it should be perfectly possible to be atheist, since it is very plausible to disdain any powers and deny them their status as deities, as the example of the Chantry's attitude towards the Old Gods demonstrates perfectly.

This *may* be a problem caused by implied definitions rather than a real restriction of my sovereignity over my protagonist's religiousness, but it needs clarification. I would greatly resent the latter.

Edit:
One of my Wardens was a traditionalist Andrastean, so it's not that I have any problem with playing religious characters. However, I envisioned my main Warden as someone who denies the gods any authority over his life and who doesn't believe in the Maker. It would be rather annoying to not be able to play another such character. Well, it would be more than annoying, I would find it insulting and unnecessarily prescriptive on the developers' part.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2014 - 09:22 .

[fchopin]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Before you can say that someone does not believe in a higher power first you have to understand what the person means by higher power as different people have different understandings for what a higher power is.

[Ieldra]

Have you read my whole post, fchopin? It is essentially exactly about the question whether this (apparent?) contradiction exists because of different implied definitions of the term "god" and that Morrigan may see the Old Gods as "greater powers" rather than "higher powers".

The same would apply to my protagonists: there exist, with very little plausible doubt, some greater powers on Thedas, and it would be implausible to deny their existence. Whether they have any higher significance for mortal's lives, that, however, is very much a matter of someone's attitude towards them, and shouldn't be prescribed by the writers for the protagonist. It appears that Morrigan does not believe that, and neither do the qunari.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 janvier 2014 - 11:15 .

[fchopin]

I have read your post but i see that you added more.

The point still stands as after i played DAO i had no idea what Gods meant in the game as the Gods were humans like us but with different powers so these are not Gods as far as i am concerned.

In the end it all depends what each person believes what a higher power is and if it is all by chance.

[Ieldra]

fchopin wrote...
I have read your post but i see that you added more.

The point still stands as after i played DAO i had no idea what Gods meant in the game as the Gods were humans like us but with different powers so these are not Gods as far as i am concerned.

In the end it all depends what each person believes what a higher power is and if it is all by chance.

Well, Morrigan does believe it is all by chance. She say so explicitly in yet another piece of companion banter:

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?
Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

I don't think there is any plausible definition of "higher power" which would result in the statement that Morrigan believes in it. Well, unless it's nature itself perhaps, but then she doesn't appear to give it special significance either except that it's the way things are. Reverence does not appear to be part of her character. I liked that about her and would hate to see it change.

To say nothing about how I would hate religiousness being imposed on my protagonist.

[FreshRevenge]

Sorry but I think this thread might not be a good thread. I foresee a religious debate and comparison between certain religions. Most people can compare them but when it comes down to it, it is a game and should not be taken literally!

[Star fury]

I don't think there were many atheists in Medieval times and Thedas is based on that period.

[Ieldra]

FreshRevenge wrote...
Sorry but I think this thread might not be a good thread. I foresee a religious debate and comparison between certain religions. Most people can compare them but when it comes down to it, it is a game and should not be taken literally!

Let's wait and see if people can reasonably debate lore pertaining to a fictional religion, ok?

In any case, I see the problem that the writers might impose religiousness on our protagonist and retcon well-liked character traits of companions as valid concerns. Something very similar has happened in ME3. I don't want to see it again.

[fchopin]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Again it depends what you believe nature to be, Morrigan says Nature is by its very nature chaotic Morrigan did not say Nature is by chance.

Modifié par fchopin, 22 janvier 2014 - 11:51 .

[Dormiglione]

The question is: Did Morrigan tell the truth when she said the she did not believe in a higher power?

Honestly, i dont know. I mean there is the fade, where demons and spirits live. The archdemon seems to be an old god. Flemeth is tremendous powerful. Morrigan knows a lot about magic and wanted to get pregnant with the old god son.
So does she not believe in a higher power like the maker. I dont know. There is no proof for the existance of the maker, But the fade is real. Abominations are real and much more.
Maybe Morrigan does only believe in "facts".

[Ieldra]

Star fury wrote...
I don't think there were many atheists in Medieval times and Thedas is based on that period.

Thedas is a fictional world made for the entertainment of people of the 21st century, and there is precedent for an "unbeliever" in Morrigan. That DAI has medieval element A does not mean it needs to have medieval element B. Also, while that is irrelevant, too, DAI art and screenshots evoke the early modern period rather than the middle ages, and atheism was known (although the term wasn't used) for almost all of known history since antiquity.

Besides, I don't care about "many". I care about not retconning Morrigan and not being forced to be religious with my protagonist.

[FreshRevenge]

it was so funny when I was in the camp at Ostagar and the priestess ask if I wanted blessing from the maker, I said no and then she violently said go away you heathen.

There are a lot of similarities between Christianity and Andraste and the Maker. If people can not see that than that is entirely on them. Andraste=Jesus Christ. Maker=Jehovah. The chantry is the Roman Catholic Church. The templars are the holy crusaders during the crusades. Apostates are witches burned by Christians or hunted by Templars etc.

The main story was about defeating the darkspawn. So I don't think they were trying to say this is a game that we want you to believe in this religion or else. You as a character had the choice not to believe in the maker.

[fchopin]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Besides, I don't care about "many". I care about not retconning Morrigan and not being forced to be religious with my protagonist.

I don’t think our character will be forced to be religious, you will be able to be what you want but Morrigan is obviously power hungry so she does believe in the old god powers in some way.

Modifié par fchopin, 22 janvier 2014 - 12:07 .

[Ieldra]

Dormiglione wrote...

The question is: Did Morrigan tell the truth when she said the she did not believe in a higher power?

Honestly, i dont know. I mean there is the fade, where demons and spirits live. The archdemon seems to be an old god. Flemeth is tremendous powerful. Morrigan knows a lot about magic and wanted to get pregnant with the old god son.
So does she not believe in a higher power like the maker. I dont know. There is no proof for the existance of the maker, But the fade is real. Abominations are real and much more.
Maybe Morrigan does only believe in "facts".

She believes in things which are real:

Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?
Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is.

She specifically mentions she doesn't believe in the Maker, and I see no reason to assume she's lying in that. Also, don't attempt to tell me she's really religious after all by creative redefinition of the term "higher power". Just take what she says at face value unless you can provide an actual reason to believe otherwise. As a matter of course, she acknowledges the existence and the power of the Old Gods, and as implied by her statement to Leliana, she doesn't believe they're "higher powers". That doesn't leave much room for interpretation. Technically, you might say she's not atheist because she doesn't deny the Old Gods' existence, but the things we usually associate with "not being an atheist" are all absent.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 janvier 2014 - 12:07 .

[Jaison1986]

IDK. Morrigan banter with Leliana clearly suggest that she does not posses any form of religious belief whatsoever. I don't know why Gaider would say she is not atheist when her dialogue suggests otherwise. And also the Qunari are not religious neither. They don't believe in any form of higher power. They follow an strict philosophy that is used as an way of life.

[KiwiQuiche]

Eh, wouldn't be the first time the writers say one thing that then contradicts with something actually in the game.

[FreshRevenge]

Now of course Gaider might say those thing because if he openly confesses that Morrigan is an atheist and Liliana is a bible thumping believer than it will blow up into a big attack on both parties all over the internet!

[FreshRevenge]

Now there are three things that you don't discuss in public. You don't discuss Politics,sex or religion or the lack of religion because 98 percent of the time, they conversation doesn't end well. Especially when are dealing with 7 Billion people that may have access to a computer!

[Ieldra]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Eh, wouldn't be the first time the writers say one thing that then contradicts with something actually in the game.

Indeed. These things happen and fans sometimes know the lore better than the writers. Nonetheless, I think a clarification is in order. When similar things happened around ME3, the developers fobbed us off with non-answers because they wanted to please everyone and they ended up pleasing no one instead and opening themselves to accusations of lying. I would prefer that such things don't happen with DAI.   

[FreshRevenge]

Because people refuse not to discuss it does not make them liars. You are demanding too much from them. They don't owe you nothing. If they don't want to discuss it LEAVE IT ALONE! Because you become a pest that is as annoying as a cockroach.

[Dormiglione]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As a matter of course, she acknowledges the existence and the power of the Old Gods, and as implied by her statement to Leliana, she doesn't believe they're "higher powers". That doesn't leave much room for interpretation. Technically, you might say she's not atheist because she doesn't deny the Old Gods' existence, but the things we usually associate with "not being an atheist" are all absent.

I agree with you. Im not saying that Morrigan is lying. She believes in the old gods, so arent the old gods some sort of "higher power". In my eyes they are. Does Morrigan follow a religion? No, there was no evidence of that.

So is she an atheist? No, she believes that the old god son maybe a solution to break her bands with flemeth, she believe that she can end the cycle of the blight.

I say, she does believe in some sort of higher power. Does she accept the existance of the maker or the religion of the chantry? No! Is that the definition of an atheist in Thedas? Cant be, Thedas has a lot religions.

[Ieldra]

FreshRevenge wrote...
Now of course Gaider might say those thing because if he openly confesses that Morrigan is an atheist and Liliana is a bible thumping believer than it will blow up into a big attack on both parties all over the internet!

It would? I would rather think it's so obvious that Leliana is a believer and Morrigan is not that it doesn't deserve special mention. BTW, I do like both of them so please don't insult Leliana. If he didn't want to say anything conclusive, he could've said something like "They both have their own attitudes towards gods. Play DAO and you'll know."

Hmm...maybe he was just pestered by fanatic atheists one time too many and reacted with this tweet. Having said that, I don't think the desire to play a protagonist who doesn't acknowledge the authority of any so-called higher power, real or imaginary, makes you a fanatic.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 janvier 2014 - 12:32 .

[Star fury]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Besides, I don't care about "many". I care about not retconning Morrigan and not being forced to be religious with my protagonist.

We know nothing about religions in DAI, but you still think that an alarm must be raised about imaginary "retcon". I wish people had used this dreaded less and when it is justified. 

[FreshRevenge]

It is really crazy that you feel that Bioware is shoving some sort of religiosity onto your character but you get offended by me stating the obvious with Liliana. Now should I have said chantry thumping?