335 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

n7stormrunner wrote...
what if it's never approrpiate? what though out the whole game at no time does it make sense to talk about how you feel about the gods? cause I gotta say it doesn't seem like somehing if I was writing the game I would be in a hurry to write that in.

though admittedly if your not human it make sense a least once to say "yeah, not my people's god/gods." but otherwise it seems like something they have to go out of their way to write.

If it's never a topic then I don't need to say anything about it of course. But how likely do you think that will be? Consider DA2, where NPCs were talking about religious stuff all the time and where the story culminated in blowing up the Chantry, and where a major conflict line was between Andrasteanism and the Qun. DAO where you had a major quest with a religious background. Religion is important on Thedas, and we'll have people of various backgrounds in our team in DAI, between Cassandra, an elf and a Tal-Vashoth, to say nothing about the story about the Veil tears which will be interpreted by some as being religiously significant. Oh, and Flemeth. We have gods at our doorstep, so to say. No, I think it would be rather more inappropriate to never bring these topics up.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 janvier 2014 - 10:04 .

[TurretSyndrome]

n7stormrunner wrote...

 what though out the whole game at no time does it make sense to talk about how you feel about the gods?

When someone in-game is forcing the thought on you? How many priests or pious people in both the games have not brought about such a situation? What's so inappropriate in replying with a "no, I don't believe in the Maker"?

If you're a writer and you're writing in dialogues where theist NPCs get to say what they feel about the Maker, do you think it's so hard or wrong to provide something that can be said by the player in response to that?

I was able to do that just fine in DA:O, and there were a lot of moments in DA:O where someone discusses te Maker, a certain religion or just faith in general. Why is it out of place now? 

[n7stormrunner]

Ieldra2 wrote...

n7stormrunner wrote...
what if it's never approrpiate? what though out the whole game at no time does it make sense to talk about how you feel about the gods? cause I gotta say it doesn't seem like somehing if I was writing the game I would be in a hurry to write that in.

though admittedly if your not human it make sense a least once to say "yeah, not my people's god/gods." but otherwise it seems like something they have to go out of their way to write.

If it's never a topic then I don't need to say anything about it of course. But how likely do you think that will be? Consider DA2, where NPCs were talking about religious stuff all the time and where the story culminated in blowing up the Chantry, and where a major conflict line was between Andrasteanism and the Qun. DAO where you had a major quest with a religious background. Religion is important on Thedas, and we'll have people of various backgrounds in our team in DAI, between Cassandra, an elf and a Tal-Vashoth, to say nothing about the story about the Veil tears which will be interpreted by some as being religiously significant. Oh, and Flemeth. We have gods at our doorstep, so to say. No, I think it would be rather more inappropriate to never bring these topics up.

solid reasoning, 

TurretSyndrome wrote...

When someone in-game is forcing the thought on you? How many priests or pious people in both the games have not brought about such a situation? What's so inappropriate in replying with a "no, I don't believe in the Maker"?

If you're a writer and you're writing in dialogues where theist NPCs get to say what they feel about the Maker, do you think it's so hard or wrong to provide something that can be said by the player in response to that?

I was able to do that just fine in DA:O, and there were a lot of moments in DA:O where someone discusses te Maker, a certain religion or just faith in general. Why is it out of place now? 

define force the thought on you for me. because depending context it could be unforgivable rude and out of place to say you don't believe in the maker.  

as far as it goes in da:o yes it da:o it had it's place, but this is not da:o who to say anyone going talk about it at all? 

that is not the right question at all. "why is it out of place" this assumes it in fact appropriate by default, in context it may be but  otherwise?

[TurretSyndrome]

n7stormrunner wrote...

define force the thought on you for me. because depending context it could be unforgivable rude and out of place to say you don't believe in the maker.  

as far as it goes in da:o yes it da:o it had it's place, but this is not da:o who to say anyone going talk about it at all? 

that is not the right question at all. "why is it out of place" this assumes it in fact appropriate by default, in context it may be but  otherwise?

Say if an NPC wants to convince you that the Maker is real. I don't think it is at all wrong to state that I don't believe in the Maker at that point, because just like in real life, we hear about the Maker in Dragon Age all the time from believers but that's about it. 

As far as it being rude, do you remember the dialogue we have at the camp in Ostagar with the priestess. If you tell her that you don't believe, she immediately brands you a heathen, and says something like "the Grey Wardens should be ashamed to have someone like you in their ranks". Now that's what I call being rude. Even then, I'm not saying it's inappropriate for the lady to say something like that, I actually found that aspect of NPCs changing their attitude towards me depending on my response, very amusing and satisfying.

All I'm saying is that, we need to be given similar amount of freedom of expression, atleast as a reaction to other's views in game. Whether it comes off as rude or anything is another matter entirely. 

It's true this is not DA:O, but it is in the same universe. There is still just as much as evidence of the Maker's existing as there was in DA:O(which is barely anyhing).

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 25 janvier 2014 - 10:45 .

[n7stormrunner]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

n7stormrunner wrote...

define force the thought on you for me. because depending context it could be unforgivable rude and out of place to say you don't believe in the maker.  

as far as it goes in da:o yes it da:o it had it's place, but this is not da:o who to say anyone going talk about it at all? 

that is not the right question at all. "why is it out of place" this assumes it in fact appropriate by default, in context it may be but  otherwise?

Say if an NPC wants to convince you that the Maker is real. I don't think it is at all wrong to state that I don't believe in the Maker at that point, because just like in real life, we hear about the Maker in Dragon Age all the time from believers but that's about it. 

As far as it being rude, do you remember the dialogue we have at the camp in Ostagar with the priestess. If you tell her that you don't believe, she immediately brands you a heathen, and says something like "the Grey Wardens should be ashamed to have someone like you in their ranks". Now that's what I call being rude. Even then, I'm not saying it's inappropriate for the lady to say something like that, I actually found that aspect of NPCs changing their attitude towards me depending on my response, very amusing and satisfying.

All I'm saying is that, we need to be given similar amount of freedom of expression, atleast as a reaction to other's views in game. Whether it comes off as rude or anything is another matter entirely. 

ah yes, the only better the reaction in the game is if you tell king cailan how you got recruited as a city elf. yes in context of someone trying to convert you that is appropriate.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieldra2: An ordered universe by chance is as irrational as an ordered universe by intent.

1) If there is no universal truth - all universal inventions are the "highest truth" obtainable.

2) If there is a universal truth - the universal truth is the "highest truth" obtainable.

Believing in god in an uncaring universe isn't "a lack of common sense" - a universe that has "no sense" at all cannot lack sense - common or otherwise.

Deciding what is sensible - and stating that agree with that sense is "common".

Not true.  Well - no more true than any definition of common sense I want to invent.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 25 janvier 2014 - 06:17 .

[Ieldra]

Medhia Nox wrote...
*snip*

I have replied to you in the group. Only so much here: you did not refer to anything I said with your reply. You made generalized statements and engaged in meaningless concept-juggling, i.e. sophistry, in order to confuse the issue. I have attempted to cut through the crap.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieldra2: When I don't make generalized statements you throw a fit about how I'm telling you what you believe. I was generalized in the hopes of avoiding your sensibilities.

There is no proof Morrigan does not believe in gods. IF she is a character that is trying to portray an actual human being - her statement is not "proof" of anything except that she made a statement.

You may want her to be - because it seems to conform to your personal world view and you like Morrigan, but no - she does not "prove" she is a non-believer in all forms of deity.

As for you preaching atheism through your characters - I hope you get to say: "The idea of the Maker is - blah blah self-righteous academia..." throughout the entire game.

I for one do not need video games to promote my egoism.

Now, I will let you go back to talking to people who agree with you.

[Ieldra]

Medhia Nox wrote...
There is no proof Morrigan does not believe in gods. IF she is a character that is trying to portray an actual human being - her statement is not "proof" of anything except that she made a statement.

You may want her to be - because it seems to conform to your personal world view and you like Morrigan, but no - she does not "prove" she is a non-believer in all forms of deity.

You see, I don't deal in absolutes. I never speak about "proof" in this context. I speak about evidence. And Morrigan's statement that she doesn't believe in any sort of higher power can't just be dismissed as meaningless. To do anything else but take it seriously unless we have a reason to believe she might not be completely honest is intellectually dishonest and methodically flawed.

Also, note that I have never insisted that Morrigan must continue to be atheist as evidenced from her statement against what David Gaider said. All I have asked for is clarification. If Morrigan turns out to be a follower of the Old Gods it will be perfectly fine with me. If she turns out Andrastean I will hate it and I will not be polite about hating it, because it would be yet another example of a character I like acquiring traits that I hate, but I cannot, without being dishonest myself, claim that she shouldn't or couldn't because people do in fact change, and I have not done so.

(Actually, David Gaider's including of the Qun in his statement is far more problematic, since the Qun recognizes no gods, unless, again, it's as "gods as super-powerful beings". That, too, needs clarification)

As for you preaching atheism through your characters - I hope you get to say: "The idea of the Maker is - blah blah self-righteous academia..." throughout the entire game. I for one do not need video games to promote my egoism.

I have also never asked for that. I have specifically said that if the topic doesn't come up in a conversation except in everyday figures of speech, I don't need to talk about it. And if you can't understand that I wish for sovereignity over the workings of my protagonist's mind in a roleplaying game, then you understand nothing about what people feel and think here and why, and everything you say will be beside the point.

I really wish you would stop constructing strawmen so that you can attack me and feel good and self-righteous about it. It gets on my nerves. And now I leave you to share your self-righteous condescension with others. Thank you for your participation.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 janvier 2014 - 07:40 .

[AlanC9]

Ieldra2 wrote...
[*]

Sorry about the rant, but to disbelieve in omnipotent invisible friends is an eminently sensible position to take, in any time period, in any culture. Unless these entities come out and do something in a way that can't be ignored. The Old Gods did(*). The Maker didn't. Case closed. It is really, really that simple.

[*]
[*]Are you sure the Maker didn't? There are miracles ascribed to Andraste. We see one in DA:O. I suppose it depends on how you define "can't be ignored."[*]
[*]

[The Hierophant]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You see, I don't deal in absolutes. I never speak about "proof" in this context. I speak about evidence. And Morrigan's statement that she doesn't believe in any sort of higher power can't just be dismissed as meaningless. To do anything else but take it seriously unless we have a reason to believe she might not be completely honest is intellectually dishonest and methodically flawed.

Not really. Up until possibly DAI there's no hard evidence to support her claim, while it's possible that Morrigan was only a fallible character who's only expressing their limited knowledge during that convo. There's no telling how much information Flemeth willingly imparted to Morrigan on the subject matter, or even the extent of Flemeth's knowledge.

[Ieldra]

AlanC9 wrote...
Are you sure the Maker didn't? There are miracles ascribed to Andraste. We see one in DA:O. I suppose it depends on how you define "can't be ignored."

There are miracles ascribed to pretty much any god. Between the religious claims about Andraste's ashes and Oghren's perfectly non-miraculous explanation I was under the impression that the religious interpretation of events as miracles goes pretty much like in the real world.

This does leave the question, though, of what exactly could be considered strong evidence of a god's existence. I present Flemeth as an example, who fits the definition and demonstrates special powers beyond what mortal magic is capable of. Faced with a being who casually breaks the limitations of magic as they are known, would make me conclude tentatively that the one who does it belongs to a different domain of life.

To convince me that some entity is the Maker, that would be a much harder proposition, though if it was presented convincingly within the context of the story with the clear intent to show that it actually is the Maker, I would tentatively accept the claim, unlike in real life where I would accept it's some super-powerful entity but remain undecided about its identity.

[Hellion Rex]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
[*]

Sorry about the rant, but to disbelieve in omnipotent invisible friends is an eminently sensible position to take, in any time period, in any culture. Unless these entities come out and do something in a way that can't be ignored. The Old Gods did(*). The Maker didn't. Case closed. It is really, really that simple.

[*]
[*]Are you sure the Maker didn't? There are miracles ascribed to Andraste. We see one in DA:O. I suppose it depends on how you define "can't be ignored."[*]
[*]

[*]Not necessarily. If you bring Oghren to the Sacred Ashes mountain, he senses deep lyrium veins running through the mountain. It is implied that that's where Andraste's Ashes possibly gained their restorative powers.

[Ieldra]

The Hierophant wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You see, I don't deal in absolutes. I never speak about "proof" in this context. I speak about evidence. And Morrigan's statement that she doesn't believe in any sort of higher power can't just be dismissed as meaningless. To do anything else but take it seriously unless we have a reason to believe she might not be completely honest is intellectually dishonest and methodically flawed.

Not really. Up until possibly DAI there's no hard evidence to support her claim, while it's possible that Morrigan was only a fallible character who's only expressing their limited knowledge during that convo. There's no telling how much information Flemeth willingly imparted to Morrigan on the subject matter, or even the extent of Flemeth's knowledge.

You misunderstand: If I may clarify:

To do anything else but accepting her claim that she doesn't believe in higher powers as a genuine expression of what she believes, is intellectually dishonst unless we have a reason to believe it may not be genuine.

This has nothing to do with how things actually are in the divine realm. Of course Morrigan can be wrong and there may be higher powers. What I am arguing here is that we should take her statement seriously as an expression of herself and that this statement is actual evidence of what she believes and that thus, any claim that she does believe differently needs clarification. It has been a habit in this thread to casually dismiss her statement as meaningless.

[Hellion Rex]

EntropicAngel wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
[*]
[*]Not necessarily. If you bring Oghren to the Sacred Ashes mountain, he senses deep lyrium veins running through the mountain. It is implied that that's where Andraste's Ashes possibly gained their restorative powers.

That explanation is very, very weak, because nowehere in the lore elsewhere is lyrium shown with healing power.

The only place within the games where there's any healing power in lyrium is the stuff in the fade, or at Branka's fight, and Gaider hated that--he called it space magic.

So it's not valid. Lyrium has never been shown to have healing powers. And further, we all know that it actually has quite destructive powers, at least with direct contact.

[*]I'm not saying it's an iron clad explanation, but why else bring it up at all then if there was no correlation? And it's highly possible that the Ashes had magical restorative properties innately, but the lyrium greatly increased their power.

[Ieldra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Not necessarily. If you bring Oghren to the Sacred Ashes mountain, he senses deep lyrium veins running through the mountain. It is implied that that's where Andraste's Ashes possibly gained their restorative powers.

That explanation is very, very weak, because nowehere in the lore elsewhere is lyrium shown with healing power.

The only place within the games where there's any healing power in lyrium is the stuff in the fade, or at Branka's fight, and Gaider hated that--he called it space magic.

So it's not valid. Lyrium has never been shown to have healing powers. And further, we all know that it actually has quite destructive powers, at least with direct contact.

It may be weak reasoning in-world, but Oghren's statement clearly exists to show the possibility of a non-religious explanation, supporting the also very obvious intent - throughout both games and all books, in fact - to keep the religious claims of Andrasteanism in the realm of faith and not of fact.

In order to assess the statement in-world, we do not know enough about magical theory and the properties of lyrium.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 janvier 2014 - 08:29 .

[The Hierophant]

@EntropicAngel - agreed. If lyrium granted healing powers we'd hear some mention of veteren Templers or magisters or their children having some innate Wolverine lite healing factor.

[Hellion Rex]

The Hierophant wrote...

@EntropicAngel - agreed. If lyrium granted healing powers we'd hear some mention of veteren Templers or magisters or their children having some innate Wolverine lite healing factor.

If it was truly miraculous, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. But remember that we also just rediscovered red lyrium, something that hadn't been seen in milennia. There could very well other types of lyrium we have not seen, that exist in long forgotten places.

[Ieldra]

The Hierophant wrote...
@EntropicAngel - agreed. If lyrium granted healing powers we'd hear some mention of veteren Templers or magisters or their children having some innate Wolverine lite healing factor.

The claim is not "lyrium grants healing powers" but "there are conditions when the presence of lyrium can result in objects nearby gaining magical powers." Which is not at all implausible. 

The thing that really gives me pause is that the healing powers of the ashes are beyond all conventional magic. But then, it is rather more plausible that faith has real power given the nature of the Fade and that the powers are the result of faith rather than the hand of the Maker.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 janvier 2014 - 08:34 .

[Ieldra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The claim is not "lyrium grants healing powers" but "there are conditions when the presence of lyrium can result in objects nearby gaining magical powers." Which is not at all implausible. 

REALLY. You sure that's what Oghren says? Or are you modifying his claim?

Don't nitpick. You can't regard a statement in a story like a scientific treatise, especially not if it comes from Oghren. He expresses things how he knows to express them. I don't recall the exact phrasing, but IIRC it was really about the presence of lyrium influencing the ashes, not about lyrium being present in the ashes.

Also, see above. Miracles can be the result of a magical power of faith, which can exist perfectly without a god, given how the Fade reacts to the activity of people's minds.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 janvier 2014 - 08:39 .