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Morrigan and the attitude towards gods: a request for clarification


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#326
Ieldra

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The Hierophant wrote...

hhh89

@TheHierophant: Leliana said 'any sort' of higher power, which should refer to deities in general, not strictly the Maker.

I think she's alluding to a specific type of deity a creator god like the Maker due to the convos being directly related. I think higher power should be taken as singular rather than plural as it directly references Morrigan's disbelief in the Maker's or a similar entity's existence. Plus if the statement is meant to convey multiple gods instead of a specific archetype (creator god) shouldn't Power be plural rather than singular?

No. That  would be grammatically wrong. The absence of any sort of higher power means exactly that: there is no higher power whatsoever, no entity of whichever kind to whom the appellation "higher power" would apply. 

Now it *is* quite possible that she was only speaking about invisible creator gods, but that would mean any other sort of god isn't a higher power in her estimation. Which is what I've been saying all along.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 janvier 2014 - 11:49 .


#327
The Hierophant

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Ieldra2 wrote...
No. That  would be grammatically wrong. The absence of any sort of higher power means exactly that: there is no higher power whatsoever, no entity of whichever kind to whom the appellation "higher power" would apply.
Now it *is* quite possible that she was only speaking about invisible creator gods, but that would mean any other sort of god isn't a higher power in her estimation. Which is what I've been saying all along.

*edit* lol that was derpy. Reading comp fail. I srsly need some sleep.
My fault. 
The Maker's designation as a higher power is only a correlation to their classification as a creator deity/god. It seems Leiliana was only asking if Morrigan believed in an alternative deity to the Maker but Morrigan flatout dismisses the existence of one.
*edit*

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 janvier 2014 - 12:40 .


#328
Barrendall

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The Hierophant wrote...

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.


Ieldra2 you are disregarding the context of the convo as it's a continuation of the above. Leiliana's mention of higher power is an allusion to her belief in a creator deity, the Maker who Morrigan doubts exists, not a general disbelief in gods.


Morrigans denies intelligent design in this conversation blatantly.  You could argue that this statement only covers the Maker but why would she feel any different about the subject if the conversation was about the "Old Gods"?  

#329
Ieldra

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The Hierophant wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

No. That  would be grammatically wrong. The absence of any sort of higher power means exactly that: there is no higher power whatsoever, no entity of whichever kind to whom the appellation "higher power" would apply. 

Now it *is* quite possible that she was only speaking about invisible creator gods, but that would mean any other sort of god isn't a higher power in her estimation. Which is what I've been saying all along.

Considering that creator gods are usually the most powerful entity of their pantheon i see no problem with the Maker or his equivalent being the higher power in relation to it's peers. Especially when the Maker is reputed to have sealed all the Old Gods.

In short i don't think all the gods are equals.

They aren't indeed. What are we really talking about when we say "god" or "higher power"? There are cultures who had little gods in every household, but today we would call them "spirits".

What are we talking about when we speak of "higher power"? I associate "spiritual significance" with the term, meaning that such an entity has some kind of intrinsic authority in matters of what is good and evil, virtue and vice, and how mortals should live their lives. However, that can only be true if there is an objective truth about these matters, in any other case any such authority can never be intrinsic and there are only entities regarded as higher powers who really aren't that.

Since Thedas is like the real world in this and no truth about these things is known, claims by believers of certain religions notwithstanding, any claim about higher powers according to this definition will always be a matter of faith, and it is always possible to lack that faith and disbelieve in things you can't see, and furthermore, it is always possible to deny spiritual significance to any entity of whose existence you do know, or in whose existence you believe.

Now I contend it would be completely, utterly out of character for Morrigan to accept any such authority over her life, to the point that I find it hard to even imagine a kind of event that would make her acquire such a belief. Consider what we know about her and tell me I'm not right about this. Most likely, she would respect a god's power but at the same time resent its hold over her if such a hold existed, and try to break it.

Enter....the Old Gods. I think it is plausible to assume Morrigan has some regard for them, given that she justifies the dark ritual with the statement that some things deserve to be preserved. Why does she consider it worthwhile to preserve Urthemiel's soul? It could be simply a matter of acquiring more power for herself, and while that would be perfectly in character I don't get that vibe from her, at least not exclusively. There is something more. I think she may be similar to Yavana, in that she thinks a world where the older mysteries remain alive as more desirable than one exclusively dominated by the newer ones, i.e. the ones of Andrasteanism. Or it is really concern for how things go for the world, which would be an odd sentiment for someone like her but not altogether unbelievable, since I think if you come to know about the "change that's coming to the world", it is unlikely you will be indifferent to it.

I'm immensly curious about how things will go for her in DAI, and hopefully it will also shed light on David Gaider's mysterious statement. I just hope she won't become Andrastean. That would really suck.

Edit:
So our earlier´disagreement was a misunderstanding? I am relieved.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 janvier 2014 - 12:51 .


#330
The Hierophant

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@Barrendall111

IIRC the Old Gods are not creator deities like the Maker who is stated to have created all of existence that Morrigan discredits. The OGs being classified as deities doesn't mean that they're omnipotent beings, gods in the Christian Judeo sense but entities that are revered as such, regardless of their capabilities.

#331
Barrendall

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The Hierophant wrote...

@Barrendall111

IIRC the Old Gods are not creator deities like the Maker who is stated to have created all of existence that Morrigan discredits. The OGs being classified as deities doesn't mean that they're omnipotent beings, gods in the Christian Judeo sense but entities that are revered as such, regardless of their capabilities.


I completely agree and have stated something close about Morrigan.  She calls them "Old Gods" for lack of a better name, not as a personal belief in their supposed divinity.

#332
Ieldra

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Barrendall111 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
@Barrendall111

IIRC the Old Gods are not creator deities like the Maker who is stated to have created all of existence that Morrigan discredits. The OGs being classified as deities doesn't mean that they're omnipotent beings, gods in the Christian Judeo sense but entities that are revered as such, regardless of their capabilities.


I completely agree and have stated something close about Morrigan.  She calls them "Old Gods" for lack of a better name, not as a personal belief in their supposed divinity.

I agree with you but that wasn't what The Hierophant said. He makes no claim about whether Morrigan regards them as deities, rather than explaining that the term "deity" does not necessarily apply only to the likes of the Maker. It is possible to say that Morrigan believes the Old Gods are gods without that contradicting her earlier statement she doesn't believe in higher powers, if for her, gods are just entities with intrinsically more-than-mortal qualities and a certain level of innate power over the elements of the world, or suchlike.

The important thing is that I don't think she considers the Old Gods gods in the sense of being worthy of worship or having any special spiritual signficance. Which is where we appear to agree.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 janvier 2014 - 01:42 .


#333
Barrendall

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Barrendall111 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
@Barrendall111

IIRC the Old Gods are not creator deities like the Maker who is stated to have created all of existence that Morrigan discredits. The OGs being classified as deities doesn't mean that they're omnipotent beings, gods in the Christian Judeo sense but entities that are revered as such, regardless of their capabilities.


I completely agree and have stated something close about Morrigan.  She calls them "Old Gods" for lack of a better name, not as a personal belief in their supposed divinity.

I agree with you but that wasn't what The Hierophant said. He makes no claim about whether Morrigan regards them as deities, rather than explaining that the term "deity" does not necessarily apply only to the likes of the Maker. It is possible to say that Morrigan believes the Old Gods are gods without that contradicting her earlier statement she doesn't believe in higher powers, if for her, gods are just entities with intrinsically more-than-mortal qualities and a certain level of innate power over the elements of the world, or suchlike.

The important thing is that I don't think she considers the Old Gods gods in the sense of being worthy of worship or having any special spiritual signficance. Which is where we appear to agree.


Ahh... I wrongly assumed it was his thoughts on Morrigan's opinions he was voicing as well, not necessarily just his own.

#334
Rotward

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hhh89 wrote...

@TheHierophant: Leliana said 'any sort' of higher power, which should refer to deities in general, not strictly the Maker.

He's ignoring that. 

#335
Afro_Explosion

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Does it really matter?

#336
Rotward

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Does anything?