335 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

FreshRevenge wrote...
It is really crazy that you feel that Bioware is shoving some sort of religiosity onto your character but you get offended by me stating the obvious with Liliana. Now should I have said chantry thumping?

I don't feel that, actually. They haven't done anything yet. I am afraid it may come to that, if I take DG's tweets on the matter seriously, and I'm afraid that a character I liked may lose a well-established character trait I liked. As for the perceived "offense" (which wasn't), note that I'm trying to keep offensive terms about religion out of this thread. We don't want this thread to go off in that direction, do we?

Edit:
If I seem a little oversensitive, blame ME3, which gave me half a dozen lines for my protagonist I would've avoided like the plague if I only had the choice, and where a companion lost much of what I liked her for through character development.  

Edit2:
Mark Darrah said it was one of their goals for DAI to give the player more freedom. I *really* like that. I can't express how much I smiled when I heard it. Statement like Gaiders about how there won't be any atheist protagonists are liable to make me think it's just marketing talk.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 janvier 2014 - 12:57 .

[azarhal]

Atheist is not based on worship, it's based on accepting the existence of deities of any kind (not just the omniscient one by the way). Someone could believe that certain deities exist without worshiping them.

This is the case of the Old Gods in Thedas, it doesn't matter if you in the "real world" do not think they are gods, everyone on the setting do and that is all that matters.

[Ieldra]

azarhal wrote...
Atheist is not based on worship, it's based on accepting the existence of deities of any kind (not just the omniscient one by the way). Someone could believe that certain deities exist without worshiping them.

This is the case of the Old Gods in Thedas, it doesn't matter if you in the "real world" do not think they are gods, everyone on the setting do and that is all that matters.

Actually, the Chantry denies the divinity of the Old Gods, so it's perfectly in-character for any Andrastean protagonist to do the same, and by extension, for anyone else to do the same with other gods. Still, if DG's tweet is based on the fact that we can't plausibly deny the existence of the Old Gods, that would be fine with me.

[blod007]

The way I understood them, Morrigan's higher power was magic and her belief in her abilities. Leliana on the other hand had the belief in the Maker and that the Maker was real and looking out for her.

If the PC saved Deygan the Dalish elf, Leliana suggests the Maker was watching over him whereas Morrigan retorts that maybe his own gods were looking after him but adds "Who am I to judge?"

In Redcliffe, if you send Morrrigan into the Fade via the ritual, Isolde says something like "Maker be with you" to which Morrigan replies something like " I hope not, that might be distracting"

I have the theory that Morrigan/Flemeth have a strong Dalish/Elven/Andraste connection anyway, which goes way back, and think they will rally the Dalish in Inquisition. Surely they would have to acknowledge the Gods? They use other people's beliefs and fears, so whether they actually believe is immaterial.They would use anyone's belief, atheism or political state in a similar way, to further the plan, It's all part of the illusion they have created. Isn't that how the Inquisitor is going to get involved? The Inquisitor will have to be able to understand all aspects of both the enemy and the ally.

[Willowhugger]

Morrigan wants to raise an Old God Baby. Its religiously important to her. She's not an atheist, even if she pooh-pahs Leliana's idea of faith. I would like to point out that she'd probably be an atheist in this world, however. Because it's rather hard to perform rituals to give birth to Zeus' babies.

If that make sense.

I think also the idea anyone is shoving religiousity (whatever that means) down someone's throat is kind of weird. In Mass Effect, most space travelers are atheist (according to Ashley). In Thedas, most people worship a higher power. It's just a feature of the setting.

I also think Bioware is pretty good about allowing multiple interpretations of religion in DA.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 22 janvier 2014 - 01:09 .

[TurretSyndrome]

So what does this mean exactly? Is Gaider saying that all three of our protagonists; Warden, Hawke and Inquisitor, cannot be atheists, and only at best "believe" that they're atheists?

If someone said that to me in real life(I'm an atheist in real life but not without respect to other's beliefs), I'd punch their lights out.

[Willowhugger]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

So what does this mean exactly? Is Gaider saying that all three of our protagonists; Warden, Hawke and Inquisitor, cannot be atheists, and only at best "believe" that they're atheists?

If someone said that to me in real life(I'm an atheist in real life but not without respect to other's beliefs), I'd punch their lights out.

I think David Gaider is saying Morrigan and the Qunari aren't atheists. Nothing more or less. He might also be stating that the terms we use in our own world regarding religion are inappropriate. In real life, the whole "theist" and "non-theist" thing has been criticized as simplistic and a relic of the 17th century.

Basically, it's an inappropriate term because some religions don't have gods but a bunch of white Europeans made the terminology centuries ago and we're stuck with that sort of thinking.

Take the Dwarves, they don't believe in gods but believe in Ghosts. Ghosts which are literally real.

How does one define that on the Atheist/Theist spectrum?

Modifié par Willowhugger, 22 janvier 2014 - 01:12 .

[TurretSyndrome]

Willowhugger wrote...

Nothing more or less.

He did say this "If someone believes that's what their character is, more power to them." That's what bugs me. I don't really care if Morrigan or the Qunari are not really atheists.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 22 janvier 2014 - 01:17 .

[Ieldra]

blod007 wrote...
The way I understood them, Morrigan's higher power was magic and her belief in her abilities. Leliana on the other hand had the belief in the Maker and that the Maker was real and looking out for her.

If the PC saved Deygan the Dalish elf, Leliana suggests the Maker was watching over him whereas Morrigan retorts that maybe his own gods were looking after him but adds "Who am I to judge?"

In Redcliffe, if you send Morrrigan into the Fade via the ritual, Isolde says something like "Maker be with you" to which Morrigan replies something like " I hope not, that might be distracting"

I have the theory that Morrigan/Flemeth have a strong Dalish/Elven/Andraste connection anyway, which goes way back, and think they will rally the Dalish in Inquisition. Surely they would have to acknowledge the Gods? They use other people's beliefs and fears, so whether they actually believe is immaterial.They would use anyone's belief, atheism or political state in a similar way, to further the plan, It's all part of the illusion they have created. Isn't that how the Inquisitor is going to get involved? The Inquisitor will have to be able to understand all aspects of both the enemy and the ally.

So...you think the difference between "I am a believer" and "I am not a believer but use others' beliefs in furtherance of my goals" is irrelevant? I find that rather odd.

If you consider both the scenes you describe and the talks with Leliana, I think Morrigan's attitude is rather clear: she acknowledges that some gods might exist (she doesn't really know) but that the Maker is imaginary, but also that she won't accept any of them, regardless of their ontological state, as a higher power for herself. She is really "atheos" in the way the term was used in Old Greek, meaning "rejecting the gods" or "godless" depending on context, while she might be closer to a misotheist in modern terminology (it meants "hatred of the gods" though in Morrigan's case "disregard" might fit better).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 janvier 2014 - 01:18 .

[Willowhugger]

He did say this "If someone believes that's what their character is, more power to them." That's what bugs me. I don't really care if Morrigan or the Qunari are not really atheists.

That is rather dismissive, but it could just be badly phrased and a statement they're not going to get into it much. I will say a lot of people disliked Hawke believing in the Maker and I understand that (speaking as someone religious).

[Willowhugger]

If you consider both the scenes you describe and the talks with Leliana, I think Morrigan's attitude is rather clear: she acknowledges that some gods might exist (she doesn't really know) but that the Maker is imaginary, but also that she won't accept any of them, regardless of their ontological state, as a higher power for herself. She is really "atheos" in the way the term was used in Old Greek, meaning "rejecting the gods" or "godless" depending on context, while she might be closer to a misotheist in modern terminology (it meants "hatred of the gods" though in Morrigan's case "disregard" might fit better).

She does? 

Morrigan then goes on to give birth to the God Baby if you're willing to help her out. I'm pretty sure she is motivated religiously (in part) by that.

[FreshRevenge]

I find this thread rather odd. It should not exist. This topic has been debated to death. No one wins. There is no reason with all these circular arguments. It does nothing. You have 7 to 8 billion people on this earth. You can't convince that many people to your logic. It is impossible. You are acting like the game should have real life ramifications and it does not!

[Willowhugger]

FreshRevenge wrote...

I find this thread rather odd. It should not exist. This topic has been debated to death. No one wins. There is no reason with all these circular arguments. It does nothing. You have 7 to 8 billion people on this earth. You can't convince that many people to your logic. It is impossible. You are acting like the game should have real life ramifications and it does not!

It's an internet forum. People talk about it while waiting for a game which won't be out for months because they're bored and entertained.

Who cares if they do.

[Ieldra]

Willowhugger wrote...
Morrigan wants to raise an Old God Baby. Its religiously important to her. She's not an atheist, even if she pooh-pahs Leliana's idea of faith. I would like to point out that she'd probably be an atheist in this world, however. Because it's rather hard to perform rituals to give birth to Zeus' babies.

If that make sense.

By her own words, she doesn't believe in any sort of higher power. Which means that having Zeus' baby isn't a religious matter, it is important for some other reason, perhaps for the power it will have.  

I think also the idea anyone is shoving religiousity (whatever that means) down someone's throat is kind of weird. In Mass Effect, most space travelers are atheist (according to Ashley). In Thedas, most people worship a higher power. It's just a feature of the setting.

I also think Bioware is pretty good about allowing multiple interpretations of religion in DA.

Indeed they have been so far. I am actually convinced that we won't get any confirmation of the Maker's (non-)existence for exactly the reason that the writers don't want to canonically (in-)validate any religion. I am in full agreement with this, it keeps the setting varied and interesting.

Which is why I am so irritated by the quoted statements of David Gaider. Given the other stuff he posted over the years, these seem decidedly odd.

[Medhia Nox]

It could be that Morrigan is portrayed as a real person - dislikes Leliana and just wants to refute her - and is probably questioning these things for herself.

We don't see a cut scene where Morrigan goes back and actually "thinks" about what Leliana is saying - someone predisposed to cheer her mentality might say: "That's because she already knows." but the reality is... she may have just made one of her typically acerbic know-it-all because I'm actually terrified that I'm so ignorant about the world comments.

If NPCs are real people - what they say cannot be considered absolute.

Also - real people change.  Athiests find faith all the time - and the faithful lose it all the time.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 janvier 2014 - 01:30 .

[Willowhugger]

By her own words, she doesn't believe in any sort of higher power. Which means that having Zeus' baby isn't a religious matter, it is important for some other reason, perhaps for the power it will have.

Given her later actions do we take Morrigan's statement as absolute? Morrigan, Old Gods bless her, is both a self-admitted liar and a person with an agenda. Also, she doesn't like Leliana and is trying to tell her to brass off.

Indeed they have been so far. I am actually convinced that we won't get any confirmation of the Maker's (non-)existence for exactly the reason that the writers don't want to canonically (in-)validate any religion. I am in full agreement with this, it keeps the setting varied and interesting.

Which is why I am so irritated by the quoted statements of David Gaider. Given the other stuff he posted over the years, these seem decidedly odd.

I wouldn't have a problem with David Gaider saying not to take our religious baggage with us to Thedas but that's sort of impossible either direction.

[TurretSyndrome]

Willowhugger wrote...

I wouldn't have a problem with David Gaider saying not to take our religious baggage with us to Thedas but that's sort of impossible either direction.

That's absolutely fine with me. What I do have a problem with is him predetermining a quality of the characters that I would create and play. I don't tend to shove my thoughts(I'm mostly indifferent to these sorts of things anyway) into a game, but always ask for freedom on how I wish to portray the one I play in return.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 22 janvier 2014 - 01:37 .

[Ieldra]

Willowhugger wrote...

If you consider both the scenes you describe and the talks with Leliana, I think Morrigan's attitude is rather clear: she acknowledges that some gods might exist (she doesn't really know) but that the Maker is imaginary, but also that she won't accept any of them, regardless of their ontological state, as a higher power for herself. She is really "atheos" in the way the term was used in Old Greek, meaning "rejecting the gods" or "godless" depending on context, while she might be closer to a misotheist in modern terminology (it meants "hatred of the gods" though in Morrigan's case "disregard" might fit better).

She does? 

Morrigan then goes on to give birth to the God Baby if you're willing to help her out. I'm pretty sure she is motivated religiously (in part) by that.

*Chuckles* And here we come to the thorny issue of the definition of religion. Debating that here is pointless, but IMO one thing that defines a religious attitude towards something is the difference between respect and reverence. Does Morrigan revere the Old God(s)? I don't think so, given her statement about not believing in any higher powers. I concede it's a possible interpretation, but she might rather be in it for the power. Also, being the mother of a god severely restricts the potential for reverence.

[Willowhugger]

*Chuckles* And here we come to the thorny issue of the definition of religion. Debating that here is pointless, but IMO one thing that defines a religious attitude towards something is the difference between respect and reverence. Does Morrigan revere the Old God(s)? I don't think so, given her statement about not believing in any higher powers. I concede it's a possible interpretation, but she might rather be in it for the power. Also, being the mother of a god severely restricts the potential for reverence.

The Catholic Church might disagree with you.

Then again, I have a rather odd view of religion (even as a religious man) after 12 years of religious studies and my own. The biggest thing to know about Old Testament Prophets is they are the least reverant people in the world and spent most of their time arguing with God (and winning).

Hilariously, it came up with Wonder Woman who is religiously devoted to the Greek pantheon even though she had to occasionally punch them in the face for being idiots.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 22 janvier 2014 - 01:42 .

[Willowhugger]

That's absolutely fine with me. What I do have a problem with is him predetermining a quality of the characters that I would create and play. I don't tend to shove my thoughts(I'm mostly indifferent to these sorts of things anyway) into a game, but always ask for freedom on how I wish to portray the one I play in return.

Yeah, it's a question. Are we getting a person like Hawke or a blank slate we can project on--and which is better?

[Medhia Nox]

@Willowhugger: I'd argue there's no such thing as a blank slate in CRPGs.

Baggage is just "that thing that bothers you when a lot of other predefined traits don't" .

[CybAnt1]

They made a conscious decision in the design of this game to make religions a mysterium. In many ways, this is a breath of fresh air.

D & D 2nd Ed. used to come with a manual which outlined the stats of many of the different gods. So they were rated in terms of strength, intelligence, dexterity, etc. They even had hit points. At the time, the highest your strength could be was 25, which was the strength of a storm giant. So it was good to know many deities were as strong as a storm giant, and had 300 hit points. (They could be killed, but that would only send them to their home plane. You could fight them on their home plane, but that was usually difficult mostly because they would be surrounded by thousands of followers.)

Despite having the same stats as human characters, all the deities in D & D, while far from omnipotent, had one amazing ability: they could answer the prayers of every cleric character in the world, and thus simultaneously provide thousands of their followers with the spells they asked for in any given moment, whether it be healing, resurrection, or smiting.

... We don't know not only whether the Maker exists, we have no idea if Fen'Harel exists, and to be darn honest, we can't be 100% sure the Old Gods exist either. Yes, there's 7 of them slumbering in caverns under the ground and they all look like ... well, do they look like dragons? Or is that only when they become archdemons?

We've fought an archdemon that supposedly was a tainted one, but ... didn't REALLY look all THAT different from other dragons we've seen, so what exactly is the difference ...... ? So there's 2 more in underground chambers underneath the world. Say, have we ever seen them? Those caverns are supposed to be unreachable even from the Deep Roads, so say the Gray Wardens, but that could be a nice line of BS simply to not have to offer any proof. Hm?

If they are higher powers, they're not too high, as they seem quite killable in archdemon form. (See arguments in this forum over Dumat.) Or maybe what the Gray Wardens know about them is wrong. Certainly, the Architect reveals something about them & their relationship to the darkspawn the Gray Wardens didn't know until that point - or is he wrong? 

I guess the point is, there are a lot of uncertainties even around the Old gods, and that fits the setting. Beats having deities with human stats.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 22 janvier 2014 - 01:58 .

[Ieldra]

Willowhugger wrote...

*Chuckles* And here we come to the thorny issue of the definition of religion. Debating that here is pointless, but IMO one thing that defines a religious attitude towards something is the difference between respect and reverence. Does Morrigan revere the Old God(s)? I don't think so, given her statement about not believing in any higher powers. I concede it's a possible interpretation, but she might rather be in it for the power. Also, being the mother of a god severely restricts the potential for reverence.

The Catholic Church might disagree with you.

Then again, I have a rather odd view of religion (even as a religious man) after 12 years of religious studies and my own. The biggest thing to know about Old Testament Prophets is they are the least reverant people in the world and spent most of their time arguing with God (and winning).

Hilariously, it came up with Wonder Woman who is religiously devoted to the Greek pantheon even though she had to occasionally punch them in the face for being idiots.

LOL. I can certainly respect *that* kind of religiousness. BTW, what I meant was more that it appears rather odd for the mother of a god to revere her own child as a deity. Yeah, religions have come up with stranger things, but DAI isn't a religious tale.

[TurretSyndrome]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Baggage is just "that thing that bothers you when a lot of other predefined traits don't" .

But that's the thing though, there weren't really many predetermined personality traits of your character set before you create them, the only thing that's predetermined usually is background and past life, not the attitude towards things, be it politics or religion or whatever. 

In Human Noble Origin, you can set the "attitude towards religion" trait very early on(the chantry in the castle). The game immediately accepts what we set there. 

So now if someone says; "Nope, your character was never atheist", it would definitely bug me.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 22 janvier 2014 - 01:59 .

[Ieldra]

CybAnt1 wrote...
They made a conscious decision in the design of this game to make religions a mysterium. In many ways, this is a breath of fresh air.

I agree with this, indeed.

I guess the point is, there are a lot of uncertainties even around the Old gods, and that fits the setting. Beats having deities with human stats.

And having a lot of uncertainties justifies many different attitudes towards gods, including the idea that they don't really exist (harder in case of the Old Gods but plausible for others) or aren't really gods. So why would David Gaider want to deny the players their preferred attitude and make it a point that a character who expresses very explicit disbelief in DAO actually isn't an unbeliever?