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Morrigan and the attitude towards gods: a request for clarification


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#76
Cyberstrike nTo

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Ieldra2 wrote...

FreshRevenge wrote...
It is really crazy that you feel that Bioware is shoving some sort of religiosity onto your character but you get offended by me stating the obvious with Liliana. Now should I have said chantry thumping?

I don't feel that, actually. They haven't done anything yet. I am afraid it may come to that, if I take DG's tweets on the matter seriously, and I'm afraid that a character I liked may lose a well-established character trait I liked. As for the perceived "offense" (which wasn't), note that I'm trying to keep offensive terms about religion out of this thread. We don't want this thread to go off in that direction, do we?

Edit:
If I seem a little oversensitive, blame ME3, which gave me half a dozen lines for my protagonist I would've avoided like the plague if I only had the choice, and where a companion lost much of what I liked her for through character development.  

Edit2:
Mark Darrah said it was one of their goals for DAI to give the player more freedom. I *really* like that. I can't express how much I smiled when I heard it. Statement like Gaiders about how there won't be any atheist protagonists are liable to make me think it's just marketing talk.


Has it ever occured to you that events set after Witch Hunt DLC could have changed Morrigan? We don't know where she went after the events of Witch Hunt maybe she seen or experinenced something that made her think that maybe the Maker does exisit.  

#77
The Elder King

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@CyberAnt: that codex in the wikia is a old source on the Inquisition. In WoT there is a new view on the Inquisition. Their goal was to restore order in the chaos that engulfed Thedas after the Blight and Andraste's rebellion. They judged people for their crimes equally, regardless if they were mages or not, nobles or commoner. That lead to their fame as ruthless.

#78
TheKomandorShepard

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I hope that i won't be forced to be andrastian or to any other religion or philosophy i rly don't like when game controls my pc personality in "rpg" game like it was with hawke or shepard.Here you could express that you don't belive in maker so i hope i won't be forced to such things and inquisitor will be warden like not hawke or shepard. 

#79
LobselVith8

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MasterScribe wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...
I don't understand why Morrigan's or any other character's or group's religious beliefs should have any impact on the way a PC should think.

It hasn't, but the statement about Morrigan not being an atheist was made as a follow-up to a statement that there won't be any atheist protagonists in future DA games.


Is that really what Gaider said?

I guess we can still be agnostics or flat earth atheists:D


That was from Gaider's post:

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin


If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again. 


However, the Surana Warden could say he didn't follow the Maker, The Warden could say he didn't think Andraste was divine, and the Warden-Commander could say that he didn't believe in the Maker, so it doesn't seem that the other writers have an issue with the protagonist not believing in a god or higher power.

#80
CybAnt1

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BTW, I don't see Gaider stating Thedas is without atheists, he's just taking a position on Morrigan and the Qunari. (I'm puzzled why his statement about the latter is at odds with the Wiki and codex entries, though, but it could be a semantic problem.)

I would say in a world where gods are mysterious, some will think they exist, and some won't. You'd expect that. ... It's easy to drag the comparison now to the real world, but of course this is a fantasy world in which certain other hard-to-believe things exist, like fire-breathing dragons (which are physically impossible) and magic.

I just hope that if the Inquisitor, regardless of race, at some point in the game, says something about the Maker, as Hawke did, without a forthright assertion of nonexistence, people won't get furious. The Inquisitor is less predefined than Hawke, but is already predefined to some extent ... by being the head of the Inquisition.

#81
LobselVith8

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CybAnt1 wrote...

I think we can take it as a given that the Inquisitor believes in the Maker. The Inquisition is semi-independent of the Chantry, but from everything I've seen so far, it still has relationships with them and I would expect Inquisitors to more or less accept the Andrastian faith.

As to whether other characters expressing doubt about the Maker - or other higher powers - well, we've seen them do it before, and I imagine they will do it again.


I don't expect the Dalish Inquisitor to follow the Maker; the same might be applicable for the Tal-Vashoth and Dwarven Inquisitor. And the developers have said the Inquisition is created in opposition to the Chantry, so I don't expect the organization to have any default ties to the Chantry of Andraste. The developers have made it seem that the protagonist will choose what the Inquisition is, and who they will have ties with.

#82
CybAnt1

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We have vague statements to that effect, Lob, so all I would say is we may have to wait till they release more detailed information, to know which of us is more right.

BTW, I'm not saying it will bother me in the least if it goes the other way, so that an Elvish Inquisitor feels he is doing this for the Elven Creators, and a Dwarven Inquisitor is doing this in service of The Stone. We DO know a Qunari Inquisitor has left the Qun, though.

However they do it is fine, this is not an expression of preference here.

#83
Star fury

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I don't mind burning a couple of atheists as an Inquisitor tbh.

#84
The Elder King

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Star fury wrote...

I don't mind burning a couple of atheists as an Inquisitor tbh.

Would you mind burning someone as the Inquisitor?

#85
Star fury

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hhh89 wrote...

Would you mind burning someone as the Inquisitor?


Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant abomination. Purge the unclean.

#86
Ieldra

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Cyberstrike nTo wrote...
Has it ever occured to you that events set after Witch Hunt DLC could have changed Morrigan? We don't know where she went after the events of Witch Hunt maybe she seen or experinenced something that made her think that maybe the Maker does exisit. 

If so, then of course I have no means to change it, but I would really, really hate it. However, David Gaider wasn't talking about the future one year back, and he acknowledged she didn't believe in the Maker. He just said she wasn't atheist - which clashes with her statement so I was asking for clarification. I was not saying it can't be or it makes no sense. 

Also, I'd find it much more plausible if she was drawn towards the Old Gods. After all, she is having a god child.

#87
Ieldra

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CybAnt1 wrote...
BTW, I don't see Gaider stating Thedas is without atheists, he's just taking a position on Morrigan and the Qunari. (I'm puzzled why his statement about the latter is at odds with the Wiki and codex entries, though, but it could be a semantic problem.)

Not in the linked thread from one year ago, no, but the statement that there won't be any atheist protagonists can be taken that way without the clarification.
 
As it is, we won't get any options to express unbelief, which sucks since this is an important part of characterization, but is still acceptable as long we won't get any unavoidable lines expressing belief.

I would say in a world where gods are mysterious, some will think they exist, and some won't. You'd expect that. ... It's easy to drag the comparison now to the real world, but of course this is a fantasy world in which certain other hard-to-believe things exist, like fire-breathing dragons (which are physically impossible) and magic.

All differences aside, I'd say that "you need some evidence to believe in something" is a reasonable position to take anywhere. You have plenty of evidence for dragons and magic, and if the laws of physics say they can't exist then the only possible conclusion is that our understanding of Thedas' laws of physics is incomplete. 

I just hope that if the Inquisitor, regardless of race, at some point in the game, says something about the Maker, as Hawke did, without a forthright assertion of nonexistence, people won't get furious. The Inquisitor is less predefined than Hawke, but is already predefined to some extent ... by being the head of the Inquisition.

Hawke did? Where? Since I don't recall, it must not have been that important. Anyway, there are a lot of everyday phrases invoking the name of God in RL the use of which doesn't indicate anything about actual belief. I guess it's the same in Andrastean Thedas.

#88
TheKomandorShepard

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Well da 2 had rule be nice and follow chantry or avoid that being di*** that was in merril case and in ferynhiel we have two option allow him to be alive with maker blessing or kill him and battle screams for dimplomatic hawke.

There is one dialogue when you can question maker existence (still di*** dialogue option) but it is rather clear that hawke belive in maker at least in diplomatic hawke case.  

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 22 janvier 2014 - 04:44 .


#89
In Exile

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Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't think there is any plausible definition of "higher power" which would result in the statement that Morrigan believes in it. Well, unless it's nature itself perhaps, but then she doesn't appear to give it special significance either except that it's the way things are. Reverence does not appear to be part of her character. I liked that about her and would hate to see it change.


There's no reason to think that Gods are supernatural, in the sense that they created the universe instead of being created with it. I agree with the general thrust of your post, but I don't think this particular point is a good illustration for it. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 janvier 2014 - 05:03 .


#90
Dabrikishaw

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I do find it weird that being an atheist is were Gaider puts his foot down on this rather modern take on medieval times.

#91
Ieldra

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In Exile wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't think there is any plausible definition of "higher power" which would result in the statement that Morrigan believes in it. Well, unless it's nature itself perhaps, but then she doesn't appear to give it special significance either except that it's the way things are. Reverence does not appear to be part of her character. I liked that about her and would hate to see it change.


There's no reason to think that Gods are supernatural, in the sense that they created the universe instead of being created with it. I agree with the general thrust of your post, but I don't think this particular point is a good illustration for it. 

"Higher power" indicates supernaturalness, as I see it, as opposed to "greater power". Either could be called "god", yes, but then what differentiates a god from, say, a powerful non-human mage? A part of the reason all this needs clarification is because there is no agreed-upon definition of what makes some entity a god.

#92
In Exile

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Ieldra2 wrote...
"Higher power" indicates supernaturalness, as I see it, as opposed to "greater power". Either could be called "god", yes, but then what differentiates a god from, say, a powerful non-human mage? A part of the reason all this needs clarification is because there is no agreed-upon definition of what makes some entity a god.


Well, in a fantasy setting, absolutely nothing. IRL our "gods" are beings with reality-defying and reality-changing powers, but it's hard to see how that makes them different than, say, super powerful mages. Is a Dreamer like a god? 

Gods don't have to be omniscient or omnipotent to be gods. One definition might be to say that something is a good depending on whether or not people worship it, but I think that's unsatisfying. 

So the high dragon "Andraste" was a god because the villagers worshiped her, but Flemeth is not because (as far as we know) she is not worshiped. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 janvier 2014 - 05:34 .


#93
CaptainBlackGold

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It is possible that D.G.'s remarks about atheism are deliberately a bit confusing because DA:I has some important reveals coming up about the lore of the DA universe.

As I read through this thread, I kept seeing the same confusion again and again - not the posters' fault, but by the ambiguity of language. What is a "god?" We have the Andrestian view that resembles something like (vaguely) Monotheistic beliefs. But even within the DA universe, not everyone (Dalish, Dwarves) accept that definition.

We have others who "believe" in the "Old Gods" but in what sense are such entities, if they are ever proven to actually exist, actually "gods?" As others have (IMHO) aptly pointed out, there is a significant ontological difference between an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being and an entity that is not primarily physical but has great power.

Without stepping on anyone's toes, therefore I suggest that the basic definition of a "god" is an entity to which one renders due reverence and obeisance, regardless of the ultimate nature of its being. For example, the Egyptian pharaohs, the Caesars, and the Japanese Emperor were all "worshipped" as gods while at the same time, people recognized their humanity, and their mortality.

In the same way, The Greek "gods" were not omnipotent, omniscient or omnipresent, and yet were worshipped. Offerings were made, libations offered, rites conducted because of either wanting to get something from such beings, or to avoid their anger.

Thus, Morrigan might reject Andrestianism, and yet still not be considered an atheist because in some form or another, she recognizes that certain powerful entities demand her submission, or are worthy of her service or something. Clearly, she had some agenda with the OGB - what that agenda is we are still waiting to discover and with the OGB not being canon, we may never discover what that agenda was.

Clearly, everyone in Thedas recognizes that intelligent, purposeful and powerful supernatural entities exist. The nature and explanation of what those entities are may differ, but everyone "believes" in them. Hence, there can be no "atheism" in the way we define it; only different and competing explanations.

How this relates to the Qun I do not know, because thus far at least, we know very little about whatever metaphysical theories the Qunari have underlie their philosophy.

Maybe, though, we will get some answers in DA:I. Or maybe not - the writers seem to love ambiguity in their lore maybe to keep things interesting, maybe just to mess with fans' heads.

#94
Magdalena11

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Here's my take on religion for what it's worth. There are beings greater than mortals. They are not perfect. They are driven by the same desires as mortals are. They have the weaknesses mortals do but because of their power to change reality those weaknesses are felt more substantially. After all, if an omnipotent being declares a do-over who's going to argue? It is the mortal's job to do what can be done with the situation as it presents itself. It won't always be optimal, in fact it may not even be beneficial. I don't get to decide.

#95
Gregolian

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Morrigan has been known to lie and the end game I think contradicts that bit of banter given she wanted an Old God's soul in a child.

#96
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Gregolian wrote...

Morrigan has been known to lie and the end game I think contradicts that bit of banter given she wanted an Old God's soul in a child.

Wanting Urthemiel's souls doesn't mean she worship the Old Gods. Expecially because we have no clue why she wanted it.

#97
LobselVith8

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Gregolian wrote...

Morrigan has been known to lie and the end game I think contradicts that bit of banter given she wanted an Old God's soul in a child.


How does that prove Morrigan worships the Old Gods as deities?

#98
Ieldra

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@In Exile, CaptainBlackGold:
Yes, this is indeed the crux of the matter. If there is no intrinsic attribute defining a god, and any powerful entity can become a god by being worshipped, then an atheist on Thedas is someone who doesn't believe that any entity deserves to be regarded as divine. For them, no gods exist but only super-powerful beings. From an out-of-world viewpoint, there is no truth of the matter, and any such people might be regarded as a Nay Theist. It doesn't help that only the term "god" is ambiguous, but the term "believe" as well when it comes to gods. Belief may refer to acknowledging something's existence or it may refer to acknowledging something's spiritual significance.

So....yes, if "atheism" means "not acknowledging the existence of any super-powerful beings", then atheism makes no sense on Thedas, but if it means "not acknowledging the spiritual significance of any super-powerful beings, not acknowledging them as gods in a strict sense as beings who deserve to be worshipped ", then it should be just as possible as in real life. Some people would respect those beings, others do what they out of fear, but they may just acknowledge their power in the same way as they would acknowledge the power of a mundane ruler.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 janvier 2014 - 06:10 .


#99
Dominus

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Maybe, though, we will get some answers in DA:I. Or maybe not - the writers seem to love ambiguity in their lore maybe to keep things interesting, maybe just to mess with fans' heads.

I'm leaning towards this. I think:
  • There is indeed a misclarification or something being unsaid, and
  • We're probably not going to get further than that tweet, outside of the games themselves. Wait for DA:I :P
What exactly would Morrigan define as a higher power is hard to say. She seems like the type of woman who's seen a great deal. Like mother, like daughter.

Modifié par DominusVita, 22 janvier 2014 - 06:08 .


#100
HK-90210

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Here's my take on it, I accept that on some points I'm probably wrong about things, but this is the way I see Gaider's statement on the non-existence of atheism in Thedas.

Religion, and faith in general, is the human reaction to the mystery of the universe. The good ol' question of 'why?'. Each faith tends to think it has the answer, or at least are closer to it than anybody else. A lot of people call themselves atheists, but are in fact closer to agnostics or even believers than they realize. A true atheist belives that there is no supernatural of any kind whatsoever. That the natural world is all that exists, and that it came to be by happenstance or accident of nature. And that all there is to it. No God, no supreme beings that had a purpose behind the creation of the world, no Star Warsy Force that binds the galaxy together and runs through all thing things. There's the natural world, and then there is fantasy and superstition. Most people I have talked to, even if they call thmeselves atheists, and do not believe in God, will accept that there may be something completely outside of their own experiences that is driving this universe, or at least led to it coming into being.

In Thedas, faith in a higher power is pretty easy to have. It's also pretty dang easy to be completely baffled or frustrated by the mystery, and deciding to stop trying to figure it out. What is not easy, what is almost impossible to do in a fantasy world like Thedas, is believe that the natural world is all that exists. A short trip to the Circle will cure a person of that kind of delusion.

Fact is that atheism, as we here on Earth see it, doesn't exist in Thedas. The devs(and I beleive Gaider in particular) have said this before. This is because Atheists have a pretty easy time here on Earth. It's pretty dang easy to deny the existence of a higher power when you're not confronted with the existence of the Fade, spirits and demons on a semi-daily basis. When a person next town over or the guy just down the street, or even your own freinds and neighbors are mages, or are confronted by the powers beyond the Viel, belief that the natural world can't answer everything is pretty much second nature in Thedas.

This is because the natural world, which is all a true atheist believes exists, doesn't exist in Thedas. Therefore atheism, as we know it, exists as much as Christianity does.

Even if they belive wholeheartedly in Christ, a player can't just insert Jesus into the world of Thedas and say that their character is a Christian. They can certainly allow their philosophy about life, doubtlessly shaped by their faith, to guide their character's own outlook. But there are limits to that.

So while a player can certainly make a character who thinks everything the chantry says is a load of bull, and thinks that people who believe in a higher power like the Maker are deluded, what they cannot do(without being deluded themselves) is think that the natural world is all that exists, as there is no natural world. They can believe that all there is is the world of Thedas and the Fade, that spirits are not divine, or have any inherant power over the people of Thedas. But you can't deny their existance. Their divinity, yes. Their existence, no.

I admit that my definition of Atheism may not fit yours, and that you may quibble with what atheism means or doesn't mean. And that may be all this thread is about, a simple miscommunication about the definition of words. But this is the bast way I can explain what I think Mr. Gaider meant by his tweet.