335 réponses à ce sujet

[Gregolian]

I'm not saying she worships them but there is a difference between not believing in a higher power but still thinking there might be something more than what is here on the physical plain and a person that doesn't believe in Andraste perse and believes all religion is a screwjob.

[Nefla]

You won't be forced to be religious with your protagonist, unlike me. I'm forced to be atheist in the vast majority of games. You don't know the context of Morrigan or the Qunari "not being atheist" , Morrigan knows a lot of secrets and it's been 10 years. Maybe she uncovered some things. You can bet that even if she discovered the maker or the elven gods, etc...are real and are just as they are represented by their respective faiths she would not be worshiping them.

[Ieldra]

@CastonFolarus:
I think that's a reasonable position, and if David Gaider meant that, then I don't have any problems with it.

Nitpick: while this is a technicality, it is actually possible to be a naturalist on Thedas. You can believe that both the world of Thedas and the Fade are part of nature, governed by impersonal laws which define how things and life forms therein (including the super-powerful ones) can come to exist and interact. You don't need to believe that some entity has shaped or is shaping the fundamental reality of the world (including the Fade). There appears to be some indication that the Veil is an artificial construct, but that would make it a technological/magical creation and not an intrinsic aspect of the world.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 janvier 2014 - 06:27 .

[Hellion Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CastonFolarus:
I think that's a reasonable position, and if David Gaider meant that, then I don't have any problems with it.

Nitpick: while this is a technicality, it is actually possible to be a naturalist on Thedas. You can believe that both the world of Thedas and the Fade are part of nature, governed by impersonal laws which define how things and life forms therein (including the super-powerful ones) can come to exist and interact. You don't need to believe that some entity has shaped or is shaping the fundamental reality of the world (including the Fade). There appears to be some indication that the Veil is an artificial construct, but that would make it a technological/magical creation and not an intrinsic aspect of the world.

I agree with this post. And I completely agree with what you said about the Veil. Particularly since Yavana speaks of a time "before the Veil". It makes me think that the Veil is a construction somehow erected by man.

[Ieldra]

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CastonFolarus:
I think that's a reasonable position, and if David Gaider meant that, then I don't have any problems with it.

Nitpick: while this is a technicality, it is actually possible to be a naturalist on Thedas. You can believe that both the world of Thedas and the Fade are part of nature, governed by impersonal laws which define how things and life forms therein (including the super-powerful ones) can come to exist and interact. You don't need to believe that some entity has shaped or is shaping the fundamental reality of the world (including the Fade). There appears to be some indication that the Veil is an artificial construct, but that would make it a technological/magical creation and not an intrinsic aspect of the world.

I agree with this post. And I completely agree with what you said about the Veil. Particularly since Yavana speaks of a time "before the Veil". It makes me think that the Veil is a construction somehow erected by man.

Indeed, it was Yavana's statement that made me elaborate on this in my mage manifesto. I believe that the Veil was created by the ancient Dreamers to protect the non-mages from the denizens of the Fade. The pre-Veil time may be decribed as a time when myths walked the lands and humans were continually stalked by creatures out of their nightmares. In DAI, this time threatens to return and it may destroy all advanced civilizations. Thus, the phrasing in the "Fire from above" trailer.

Hmm....I suddenly have an idea. What if the loss of the elves' immortality has something to do with the creation of the Veil?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 janvier 2014 - 07:21 .

[Hellion Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CastonFolarus:
I think that's a reasonable position, and if David Gaider meant that, then I don't have any problems with it.

Nitpick: while this is a technicality, it is actually possible to be a naturalist on Thedas. You can believe that both the world of Thedas and the Fade are part of nature, governed by impersonal laws which define how things and life forms therein (including the super-powerful ones) can come to exist and interact. You don't need to believe that some entity has shaped or is shaping the fundamental reality of the world (including the Fade). There appears to be some indication that the Veil is an artificial construct, but that would make it a technological/magical creation and not an intrinsic aspect of the world.

I agree with this post. And I completely agree with what you said about the Veil. Particularly since Yavana speaks of a time "before the Veil". It makes me think that the Veil is a construction somehow erected by man.

Indeed, it was Yavana's statement that made me elaborate on this in my mage manifesto. I believe that the Veil was created by the ancient Dreamers to protect the non-mages from the denizens of the Fade. The pre-Veil time may be decribed as a time when myths walked the lands and humans were continually stalked by creatures out of their nightmares.

Hmm....I suddenly have an idea. What if the loss of the elves' immortality has something to do with the creation of the Veil?

Well, the way Yavana spoke makes me believe that the Veil's erection was a very, very long time ago. Even preceding the founding of Arlathan. The Quickening of the elves didn't start really happening until humans showed up on the block, no?

Modifié par eluvianix, 22 janvier 2014 - 07:22 .

[Ieldra]

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CastonFolarus:
I think that's a reasonable position, and if David Gaider meant that, then I don't have any problems with it.

Nitpick: while this is a technicality, it is actually possible to be a naturalist on Thedas. You can believe that both the world of Thedas and the Fade are part of nature, governed by impersonal laws which define how things and life forms therein (including the super-powerful ones) can come to exist and interact. You don't need to believe that some entity has shaped or is shaping the fundamental reality of the world (including the Fade). There appears to be some indication that the Veil is an artificial construct, but that would make it a technological/magical creation and not an intrinsic aspect of the world.

I agree with this post. And I completely agree with what you said about the Veil. Particularly since Yavana speaks of a time "before the Veil". It makes me think that the Veil is a construction somehow erected by man.

Indeed, it was Yavana's statement that made me elaborate on this in my mage manifesto. I believe that the Veil was created by the ancient Dreamers to protect the non-mages from the denizens of the Fade. The pre-Veil time may be decribed as a time when myths walked the lands and humans were continually stalked by creatures out of their nightmares.

Hmm....I suddenly have an idea. What if the loss of the elves' immortality has something to do with the creation of the Veil?

Well, the way Yavana spoke makes me believe that the Veil's erection was a very, very long time ago. Even preceding the founding of Arlathan. The Quickening of the elves didn't start really happening until humans showed up on the block, no?

Indeed - and wouldn't that go really well with my hypothesis that it was the creation of the ancient Dreamers? Of course I don't know, since we don't know anyone or anything with a perspective spanning a longer time than the time since the founding of Arlathan - maybe except Flemeth, and she doesn't tell. 

According to Yavana, wasn't it a time when dragons ruled the skies? I don't think it's implausible that humans might have seen those times. The worship of dragons as gods must have started somewhere.

[Hellion Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed - and wouldn't that go really well with my hypothesis that it was the creation of the ancient Dreamers? Of course I don't know, since we don't know anyone or anything with a perspective spanning a longer time than the time since the founding of Arlathan - maybe except Flemeth, and she doesn't tell. 

According to Yavana, wasn't it a time when dragons ruled the skies? I don't think it's implausible that humans might have seen those times. The worship of dragons as gods must have started somewhere.

When you say "Ancient" dreamers, are you talking about the Neromenians, or something older?

[Ieldra]

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed - and wouldn't that go really well with my hypothesis that it was the creation of the ancient Dreamers? Of course I don't know, since we don't know anyone or anything with a perspective spanning a longer time than the time since the founding of Arlathan - maybe except Flemeth, and she doesn't tell. 

According to Yavana, wasn't it a time when dragons ruled the skies? I don't think it's implausible that humans might have seen those times. The worship of dragons as gods must have started somewhere.

When you say "Ancient" dreamers, are you talking about the Neromenians, or something older?

Since there is no mention of older Dreamers, I was talking about the Neromenians. Any earlier ones would've had to be elves anyway, and we don't know of anyone who might have created the Veil of times before the founding of Arlathan. 

[Hellion Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed - and wouldn't that go really well with my hypothesis that it was the creation of the ancient Dreamers? Of course I don't know, since we don't know anyone or anything with a perspective spanning a longer time than the time since the founding of Arlathan - maybe except Flemeth, and she doesn't tell. 

According to Yavana, wasn't it a time when dragons ruled the skies? I don't think it's implausible that humans might have seen those times. The worship of dragons as gods must have started somewhere.

When you say "Ancient" dreamers, are you talking about the Neromenians, or something older?

Since there is no mention of older Dreamers, I was talking about the Neromenians. Any earlier ones would've had to be elves anyway, and we don't know of anyone who might have created the Veil of times before the founding of Arlathan. 

Ah, so you think the Veil might be a more recent addition to the world's structure than one would expect. But even so, surely it would require magic of a magnitude beyond anything mages of modern Thedas could achieve...

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed - and wouldn't that go really well with my hypothesis that it was the creation of the ancient Dreamers? Of course I don't know, since we don't know anyone or anything with a perspective spanning a longer time than the time since the founding of Arlathan - maybe except Flemeth, and she doesn't tell. 

According to Yavana, wasn't it a time when dragons ruled the skies? I don't think it's implausible that humans might have seen those times. The worship of dragons as gods must have started somewhere.

When you say "Ancient" dreamers, are you talking about the Neromenians, or something older?

Since there is no mention of older Dreamers, I was talking about the Neromenians. Any earlier ones would've had to be elves anyway, and we don't know of anyone who might have created the Veil of times before the founding of Arlathan. 

Ah, so you think the Veil might be a more recent addition to the world's structure than one would expect. But even so, surely it would require magic of a magnitude beyond anything mages of modern Thedas could achieve...

It wouldn't be beyond the capabilities of Tevinter at its prime, or Arlathan, if the rumors about it are true. 

[Ieldra]

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed - and wouldn't that go really well with my hypothesis that it was the creation of the ancient Dreamers? Of course I don't know, since we don't know anyone or anything with a perspective spanning a longer time than the time since the founding of Arlathan - maybe except Flemeth, and she doesn't tell. 

According to Yavana, wasn't it a time when dragons ruled the skies? I don't think it's implausible that humans might have seen those times. The worship of dragons as gods must have started somewhere.

When you say "Ancient" dreamers, are you talking about the Neromenians, or something older?

Since there is no mention of older Dreamers, I was talking about the Neromenians. Any earlier ones would've had to be elves anyway, and we don't know of anyone who might have created the Veil of times before the founding of Arlathan. 

Ah, so you think the Veil might be a more recent addition to the world's structure than one would expect. But even so, surely it would require magic of a magnitude beyond anything mages of modern Thedas could achieve...

Magic? Not so much, since magic is part of what was to be influenced. Peoples' dreams shape the Fade - so it isn't implausible to believe that people's beliefs may also shape the less "hard" aspects of the world. I'd rather think it was what we would call memetic engineering on a large scale. The Veil is maintained by peoples' collective beliefs, which means that it may fail if there's a social upheaval influencing people's beliefs. That ties well into DAI's plot, don't you think?

Well OK, this is rather speculative, but I think the idea deserves to be examined closely.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed - and wouldn't that go really well with my hypothesis that it was the creation of the ancient Dreamers? Of course I don't know, since we don't know anyone or anything with a perspective spanning a longer time than the time since the founding of Arlathan - maybe except Flemeth, and she doesn't tell. 

According to Yavana, wasn't it a time when dragons ruled the skies? I don't think it's implausible that humans might have seen those times. The worship of dragons as gods must have started somewhere.

When you say "Ancient" dreamers, are you talking about the Neromenians, or something older?

Since there is no mention of older Dreamers, I was talking about the Neromenians. Any earlier ones would've had to be elves anyway, and we don't know of anyone who might have created the Veil of times before the founding of Arlathan. 

Ah, so you think the Veil might be a more recent addition to the world's structure than one would expect. But even so, surely it would require magic of a magnitude beyond anything mages of modern Thedas could achieve...

It wouldn't be beyond the capabilities of Tevinter at its prime, or Arlathan, if the rumors about it are true. 

But to create a magical construct that affects all of the peoples in Thedas, as well as binding and sealing spirits and demons behind the barrier? That seems a little bit beyond even the powers of the magisters...but regardless, why don't we have any mentions of this in history. This seems like something people wouldn't miss..unless...I'm totally spitballing here, but since mortal minds cross the Veil into the Fade when sleeping, perhaps the raising of the Veil made people forget what happened. It would logically stand to reason that the raising of the Veil would have touch the minds of people so that they would go there during sleep.

[Hellion Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Magic? Not so much, since magic is part of what was to be influenced. Peoples' dreams shape the Fade - so it isn't implausible to believe that people's beliefs may also shape the less "hard" aspects of the world. I'd rather think it was what we would call memetic engineering on a large scale. The Veil is maintained by peoples' collective beliefs, which means that it may fail if there's a social upheaval influencing people's beliefs. That ties well into DAI's plot, don't you think?
Well OK, this is rather speculative, but I think the idea deserves to be examined closely.

The more I chew on it, the more I kind of understand your idea. If the Veil is a manifestation of collective beliefs, it makes me wonder if it was indeed raised all at once, or was something that took a while to develop. That being said, I also kind of agree that Dreamers might have had a hand in raising it as well. If the Veil is a manifestation of collective belief, then it would have to touch the minds of everyone in Thedas. (As a side note, I wonder if the Veil is only present within the confines of Thedas). But Dreamers can touch the minds of mortals, can they not? Perhaps the Dreamers used their power to connect the Veil to the collective dreams and beliefs of people within Thedas.

[TheKomandorShepard]

CastonFolarus wrote...

chop

What not beliving in supernatural things doesn't make you atheist is all it is required it is not belive in god you can belive in alien and ghost or care bears (well as long you are not worshiping them as gods:lol:).Sure many atheist is skeptical (well im one of them) still you may not belive in god and yet belive in ghost.Can atheist be member of religion group sure for many reasons and can atheist follow religion that doesn't includge gods well thats endless philosophical debate... 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 22 janvier 2014 - 11:56 .

[Gwydden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Indeed, it was Yavana's statement that made me elaborate on this in my mage manifesto. I believe that the Veil was created by the ancient Dreamers to protect the non-mages from the denizens of the Fade. The pre-Veil time may be decribed as a time when myths walked the lands and humans were continually stalked by creatures out of their nightmares. In DAI, this time threatens to return and it may destroy all advanced civilizations. Thus, the phrasing in the "Fire from above" trailer.

Hmm....I suddenly have an idea. What if the loss of the elves' immortality has something to do with the creation of the Veil?

And I had a different one. Maybe I like American Gods too much, but what if the elven Creators and the Old Gods were actually born because people imagined in them in a time before there was a Veil?

Modifié par Gwydden, 23 janvier 2014 - 12:31 .

[Nightdragon8]

I think we need to start defining things, "Higher power" in general and in the context of Lileana was clearly talking about the 'Maker' in which case, we can safly say that Morri doesn't believe.

I find Morri belief is that of survival of the fittest,

The secound woudl be what is considered a religion. Does having respect for things that can maul you poision you or off the 100's of other things that can kill you be considered "worship." I don't think so.

I think honestly Morri is an atheist. That doesn't mean that if one day the 'maker' where to swoop in and ran down the rules and have the power to back it up. Morri wont have a problem acknowledging.

But just because Morri is an atheist doesn't mean she is a bad person.

As for Gwydden

And I had a different one. Maybe I like American Gods too much, but what if the elven Creators and the Old Gods were actually born because people imagined in them in a time before there was a Veil?

Maybe, tho no supporting evidence has been found.

In fact it could easily be a Warhammer 40k sort of thing.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

There's a difference between 'believing' in powers that one has observed and know to be real, and believing in powers that appear to have no basis in fact.

Morrigan clearly believes the power of the old gods exist, for instance, but it's obvious she doesn't believe in entities like the Maker if no one can provide substantial proof of their existence.

She doesn't believe in a 'higher power' of the sort Leliana presses her for in those dialogues, that is an apparently invisible, powerful deity-figure that has never been directly observed by any of the people who say it's real in all its aspects, motives and actions.

[Pasquale1234]

Honestly - I think this may have to do with the voiced PC and cinematic approach they have taken.

In DAO, we had simple, concise lines of text from which to choose the exact content of what the PC would say.

The voiced, cinematic presentation tends to include longer lines of dialogue, colloquialisms, and auto-dialogue - and we no longer choose the actual content or words the PC will say, but a tone or paraphrase.  The writers want to be able to toss in phrases like "Thank the Maker" (or "Thank the Creators" or "Thank the Paragons") where they feel the character might say such things.  I shudder to consider the complexity of doing all that for several different race / origins, but that is the task they have assumed.  And I suspect they might have wanted to nix the possibility of atheism to make that task a little less arduous.

The player's PC characterization options have been severely curtailed with the introduction of the voicing and more expressive PC animations.  The ability to express atheism may be one of the casualties.

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yes, this is indeed the crux of the matter. If there is no intrinsic attribute defining a god, and any powerful entity can become a god by being worshipped, then an atheist on Thedas is someone who doesn't believe that any entity deserves to be regarded as divine. For them, no gods exist but only super-powerful beings. From an out-of-world viewpoint, there is no truth of the matter, and any such people might be regarded as a Nay Theist. It doesn't help that only the term "god" is ambiguous, but the term "believe" as well when it comes to gods. Belief may refer to acknowledging something's existence or it may refer to acknowledging something's spiritual significance.

It's like meeting super-advanced aliens IRL. Would that make them gods? What if technology existed such that one could become omnipotent and omnipresent. Would that make one a god? It's an interesting semantic argument, and monothestic religions seem to dodge it by making their superbeing exclusive and all-powerful. 

So....yes, if "atheism" means "not acknowledging the existence of any super-powerful beings", then atheism makes no sense on Thedas, but if it means "not acknowledging the spiritual significance of any super-powerful beings, not acknowledging them as gods in a strict sense as beings who deserve to be worshipped ", then it should be just as possible as in real life. Some people would respect those beings, others do what they out of fear, but they may just acknowledge their power in the same way as they would acknowledge the power of a mundane ruler.  

There are also beliefs tied up in that. Thinking on it, the "higher power" conversation is about a controlling force in your life. Morrigan could consider, say, the old gods "gods" in a proper sense but not think they can actually influence or control her life beyond people telling her what to do, and so in that regard there is no "higher power" but chaotic nature. 

Still, this is trying to rationalize what's probably inconsistent writing. 

[In Exile]

CastonFolarus wrote...
Fact is that atheism, as we here on Earth see it, doesn't exist in Thedas. The devs(and I beleive Gaider in particular) have said this before. This is because Atheists have a pretty easy time here on Earth. It's pretty dang easy to deny the existence of a higher power when you're not confronted with the existence of the Fade, spirits and demons on a semi-daily basis. When a person next town over or the guy just down the street, or even your own freinds and neighbors are mages, or are confronted by the powers beyond the Viel, belief that the natural world can't answer everything is pretty much second nature in Thedas.

That doesn't follow. To someone from the year 1000 AD, we are basically gods. We can travel across the world in less than a day. We can travel to space. We can heal disease at a rate that's unparalled. We can communicate with anyone, anywhere, almost instantly. We can access the sum total of human knowledge (give or take) in seconds. We can fly in giant metal carriages. 

This is all mechanical because our theory for it is mechanical. There's no reason to say that magic is anything other than a mechanical process. The fact planes exist and fly in accordance with set principles is not proof of divinity.

It's only from our POV - where magic does not exist - that the existence of something so fundamentally reality breaking might open the door to other reality-breaking things. 

The Fade is as mundane as a nitrogen atmosphere in Thedas. 

[Barrendall]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

There's a difference between 'believing' in powers that one has observed and know to be real, and believing in powers that appear to have no basis in fact.

Morrigan clearly believes the power of the old gods exist, for instance, but it's obvious she doesn't believe in entities like the Maker if no one can provide substantial proof of their existence.

She doesn't believe in a 'higher power' of the sort Leliana presses her for in those dialogues, that is an apparently invisible, powerful deity-figure that has never been directly observed by any of the people who say it's real in all its aspects, motives and actions.

This... Now of course what I'm about to state is pure speculation on my part but it almost seems that Morrigan calls them "Old Gods" for lack of a better name.  It's what everyone in Thedas refers them as but it doesn't seem (in my opinion) that she considers them or the Maker a deity despite cultural worship.  

[In Exile]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
The voiced, cinematic presentation tends to include longer lines of dialogue, colloquialisms, and auto-dialogue - and we no longer choose the actual content or words the PC will say, but a tone or paraphrase.  The writers want to be able to toss in phrases like "Thank the Maker" (or "Thank the Creators" or "Thank the Paragons") where they feel the character might say such things.  I shudder to consider the complexity of doing all that for several different race / origins, but that is the task they have assumed.  And I suspect they might have wanted to nix the possibility of atheism to make that task a little less arduous.

The player's PC characterization options have been severely curtailed with the introduction of the voicing and more expressive PC animations.  The ability to express atheism may be one of the casualties.

That's absurd. I'm as ardent an atheist as they come, but I often might say "thank god" or "godspeed". That doesn't suddenly mean I'm religious. 

[Martyr1777]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Honestly - I think this may have to do with the voiced PC and cinematic approach they have taken.

In DAO, we had simple, concise lines of text from which to choose the exact content of what the PC would say.

The voiced, cinematic presentation tends to include longer lines of dialogue, colloquialisms, and auto-dialogue - and we no longer choose the actual content or words the PC will say, but a tone or paraphrase.  The writers want to be able to toss in phrases like "Thank the Maker" (or "Thank the Creators" or "Thank the Paragons") where they feel the character might say such things.  I shudder to consider the complexity of doing all that for several different race / origins, but that is the task they have assumed.  And I suspect they might have wanted to nix the possibility of atheism to make that task a little less arduous.

The player's PC characterization options have been severely curtailed with the introduction of the voicing and more expressive PC animations.  The ability to express atheism may be one of the casualties.

Yet in a world where religion plays a HUGE role, hello Chantry and mage vs templar war. To cut out that option of being an atheist is a pretty big deal. Especially is that would be a prime reason for not supporting the Chantry. I mean if the dialoge only supports religion friendly statement the player basically loses all control when it goes there.

Realistically they're more likely to forego it altogehter and not give religious based lines to the player and leave it all neutral so its just about supporting an organization or not, not a religion.

[coldflame]

In Exile wrote...

That's absurd. I'm as ardent an atheist as they come, but I often might say "thank god" or "godspeed". That doesn't suddenly mean I'm religious. 

So if you are truely an atheist why thank god since he doesn't exsit in your opinion? I am not trying to be antagonistic, I am just really curious.