335 réponses à ce sujet

[SgtSteel91]

tcgtqu wrote...

In Exile wrote...

That's absurd. I'm as ardent an atheist as they come, but I often might say "thank god" or "godspeed". That doesn't suddenly mean I'm religious. 

So if you are truely an atheist why thank god since he doesn't exsit in your opinion? I am not trying to be antagonistic, I am just really curious.

Social reienforcement from everyone around you who may say "thank god" or "god damn it"

[LobselVith8]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Honestly - I think this may have to do with the voiced PC and cinematic approach they have taken.

In DAO, we had simple, concise lines of text from which to choose the exact content of what the PC would say.

The voiced, cinematic presentation tends to include longer lines of dialogue, colloquialisms, and auto-dialogue - and we no longer choose the actual content or words the PC will say, but a tone or paraphrase.  The writers want to be able to toss in phrases like "Thank the Maker" (or "Thank the Creators" or "Thank the Paragons") where they feel the character might say such things.  I shudder to consider the complexity of doing all that for several different race / origins, but that is the task they have assumed.  And I suspect they might have wanted to nix the possibility of atheism to make that task a little less arduous.

The player's PC characterization options have been severely curtailed with the introduction of the voicing and more expressive PC animations.  The ability to express atheism may be one of the casualties. 

Hawke's comment to Feynriel for the Maker to watch over him (knowing full well the young man follows the Creators) and telling Merrill that his mother was with the Maker stood out for me.

[HK-90210]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
What not beliving in supernatural things doesn't make you atheist is all it is required it is not belive in god you can belive in alien and ghost or care bears (well as long you are not worshiping them as gods[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]).Sure
many atheist is skeptical (well im one of them) still you may not belive in god and yet belive in ghost.Can atheist be member of religion group sure for many reasons and can atheist follow religion that doesn't includge gods well thats endless philosophical debate... 

Bhuddists don't believe in a 'God', as many in the western world tend to understand it. Yet I cannot see why anyone would think of them as atheists. Everyone who is an atheist doesn't believe in God. Everyone who doesn't believe in God is not an atheist. It takes much more than a nonbelief in God to qualify as an atheist, in my opinion. Just my opinion, though.

In Exile wrote...

That doesn't follow. To someone from the year 1000 AD, we are basically gods. We can travel across the world in less than a day. We can travel to space. We can heal disease at a rate that's unparalled. We can communicate with anyone, anywhere, almost instantly. We can access the sum total of human knowledge (give or take) in seconds. We can fly in giant metal carriages. 

This is all mechanical because our theory for it is mechanical. There's no reason to say that magic is anything other than a mechanical process. The fact planes exist and fly in accordance with set principles is not proof of divinity.

It's only from our POV - where magic does not exist - that the existence of something so fundamentally reality breaking might open the door to other reality-breaking things. 

The Fade is as mundane as a nitrogen atmosphere in Thedas. 

I disagree. Throw a person from Thedas who has no belief in the Maker or any divine being(s) into our world and what would you get? A person who would be totally confused by our technology, and would certainly have a lot of trouble understanding how it works, and it might simply be better to tell him they work because mages made them. But the laws of the natural world could in fact be explained to him in ways that would fit with his understanding of how the world works. Yet he would completely and totally understand why Christians believe in Devils and angels. Because demons and the spirits of the Fade are something that a person from Thedas would simply accept are real, something within their realm of understanding. In no way would they qualify as an 'atheist' in our world. At least, not without a long, drawn out 'reeducation'.

Throw an atheist of our world into Thedas? The foundation of their understanding of the world is shifted. Magic than can defy the laws of physics and thermodynamics. Demons that can posses your very soul. As Captain Barbossa would say, "You'd best start believing in ghost stories. You're in one!"

The atheism of our world is not compatible with the demons, spirits, darkspawn and Old Gods of Thedas. I will grant you, however, that this is all hinging on my own definition of atheism, which realies on more than just a non-belief in an 'absentee father-figure', as Morrigan would refer to it, in order to qualify.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 23 janvier 2014 - 05:16 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

CastonFolarus wrote...

Bhuddists don't believe in a 'God', as many in the western world tend to understand it. Yet I cannot see why anyone would think of them as atheists. Everyone who is an atheist doesn't believe in God. Everyone who doesn't believe in God is not an atheist. It takes much more than a nonbelief in God to qualify as an atheist, in my opinion. Just my opinion, though.

Well Buddhists are atheists as long individual thinks that gods doesn't exist you can qualify him as one.Now atheist is seen as group of peoples that insult religious group of peoples  or simple person that doesn't follow any religion and don't belive in god.  So now we have original meaning simple you don't belive that any god exist ,or you can look on them how are seen by most now... 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Barrendall111 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

There's a difference between 'believing' in powers that one has observed and know to be real, and believing in powers that appear to have no basis in fact.

Morrigan clearly believes the power of the old gods exist, for instance, but it's obvious she doesn't believe in entities like the Maker if no one can provide substantial proof of their existence.

She doesn't believe in a 'higher power' of the sort Leliana presses her for in those dialogues, that is an apparently invisible, powerful deity-figure that has never been directly observed by any of the people who say it's real in all its aspects, motives and actions.

This... Now of course what I'm about to state is pure speculation on my part but it almost seems that Morrigan calls them "Old Gods" for lack of a better name.  It's what everyone in Thedas refers them as but it doesn't seem (in my opinion) that she considers them or the Maker a deity despite cultural worship.  

There's currently a lack of information on what the Old Gods really are, let alone what Morrigan thinks they are. Though it is interesting to speculate why Morrigan believes the Old Gods exist in any shape or form, if she has never observed them. I suppose Flemeth convinced her somehow that their powers are real.

[HK-90210]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

Bhuddists don't believe in a 'God', as many in the western world tend to understand it. Yet I cannot see why anyone would think of them as atheists. Everyone who is an atheist doesn't believe in God. Everyone who doesn't believe in God is not an atheist. It takes much more than a nonbelief in God to qualify as an atheist, in my opinion. Just my opinion, though.

Well Buddhists are atheists as long individual thinks that gods doesn't exist you can qualify him as one.Now atheist is seen as group of peoples that insult religious group of peoples  or simple person that doesn't follow any religion and don't belive in god.  So now we have original meaning simple you don't belive that any god exist ,or you can look on them how are seen by most now... 

Again, you may think that all that is required to be called atheist is a disbelief in God. I disagree, and belive it requires more than that to merit the title.

Though I will grant you, dictionary.com is on your side:
Athiest, noun, a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

That being said, I think the connotative meanings of the word atheist are much more expansive than that.

[CybAnt1]

Though it is interesting to speculate why Morrigan believes the Old Gods exist in any shape or form, 

We supposedly met, defeated, and killed Urthemiel at the end of Origins. 

Or did we? Can they die? Some seem to think Dumat didn't. 

Archdemons are supposed to be the Old Gods in caverns underground who emerge Tainted and corrupted to lead the Darkspawn to command each Blight. 

Or are they? What was going on with that weird dragon cult ...... ? 

They're supposed to still look like Dragons before they awaken, tainted & corrupted ... but then we've never seen one in that state, or even met someone else who has. 

Or do they in their primordial state? Why are they just sitting there sleeping or hibernating in caverns until a new Blight comes along? Nothing better to do? 

Why do they look like Dragons in their corrupted/tainted one? What relation do they have to 'actual' Dragons? 

BTW, everyone assumes Morrigan is the first one to take an OG's soul and put it in a human child. But maybe this HAS been done before? (Maybe even somewhere someone before her knows the result when this is done, so it's not a blind experiment.) 

--- Few seem to doubt their existence, but they strike me as a class of entities still surrounded by a proper fog of uncertainty about their nature. Like much in this gameworld. We know what the Gray Wardens say, but ... well, again, our encounter with the Architect says they as always may have incomplete or incorrect information. 

[Laughing_Man]

Hard to seperate the truth from the content of this thread, but if DA:I will continue the theme of taking control of the protagonist away from the player's hand, it will be another nail in the coffin of what was once called RPG's.

Assuming that OP is correct, I don't see why the esteemed writers feel the need to shove a certain agenda into my protagonist's throat.

[Ieldra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Honestly - I think this may have to do with the voiced PC and cinematic approach they have taken.

In DAO, we had simple, concise lines of text from which to choose the exact content of what the PC would say.

The voiced, cinematic presentation tends to include longer lines of dialogue, colloquialisms, and auto-dialogue - and we no longer choose the actual content or words the PC will say, but a tone or paraphrase.  The writers want to be able to toss in phrases like "Thank the Maker" (or "Thank the Creators" or "Thank the Paragons") where they feel the character might say such things.  I shudder to consider the complexity of doing all that for several different race / origins, but that is the task they have assumed.  And I suspect they might have wanted to nix the possibility of atheism to make that task a little less arduous.

The player's PC characterization options have been severely curtailed with the introduction of the voicing and more expressive PC animations.  The ability to express atheism may be one of the casualties. 

Hawke's comment to Feynriel for the Maker to watch over him (knowing full well the young man follows the Creators) and telling Merrill that his mother was with the Maker stood out for me.

I don't recall getting these. Are you sure they aren't optional?

If these are what a diplomatic Hawke gets (I don't play those as a rule) then it's a matter of associating a stance on religion with a personality trait, which is one of the most prevalent writing failings in games that use a conversation mechanism like the dialogue wheel, and the most common source of lines which are unintended and perceived to be out of character.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2014 - 09:11 .

[Ieldra]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Barrendall111 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

There's a difference between 'believing' in powers that one has observed and know to be real, and believing in powers that appear to have no basis in fact.

Morrigan clearly believes the power of the old gods exist, for instance, but it's obvious she doesn't believe in entities like the Maker if no one can provide substantial proof of their existence.

She doesn't believe in a 'higher power' of the sort Leliana presses her for in those dialogues, that is an apparently invisible, powerful deity-figure that has never been directly observed by any of the people who say it's real in all its aspects, motives and actions.

This... Now of course what I'm about to state is pure speculation on my part but it almost seems that Morrigan calls them "Old Gods" for lack of a better name.  It's what everyone in Thedas refers them as but it doesn't seem (in my opinion) that she considers them or the Maker a deity despite cultural worship.  

There's currently a lack of information on what the Old Gods really are, let alone what Morrigan thinks they are. Though it is interesting to speculate why Morrigan believes the Old Gods exist in any shape or form, if she has never observed them. I suppose Flemeth convinced her somehow that their powers are real.

The Grey Wardens know the location of the remaining dragons who could become archdemons without having been there. I suppose it's possible to scry them with magic. If they're really the Old Gods of legend remains to be seen, but it doesn't really matter, does it, if their power works as hypothesized? 

[10K]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Honestly - I think this may have to do with the voiced PC and cinematic approach they have taken.

In DAO, we had simple, concise lines of text from which to choose the exact content of what the PC would say.

The voiced, cinematic presentation tends to include longer lines of dialogue, colloquialisms, and auto-dialogue - and we no longer choose the actual content or words the PC will say, but a tone or paraphrase.  The writers want to be able to toss in phrases like "Thank the Maker" (or "Thank the Creators" or "Thank the Paragons") where they feel the character might say such things.  I shudder to consider the complexity of doing all that for several different race / origins, but that is the task they have assumed.  And I suspect they might have wanted to nix the possibility of atheism to make that task a little less arduous.

The player's PC characterization options have been severely curtailed with the introduction of the voicing and more expressive PC animations.  The ability to express atheism may be one of the casualties. 

Hawke's comment to Feynriel for the Maker to watch over him (knowing full well the young man follows the Creators) and telling Merrill that his mother was with the Maker stood out for me.

I don't recall getting these. Are you sure they aren't optional?

If these are what a diplomatic Hawke gets (I don't play those as a rule) then it's a matter of associating a stance on religion with a personality trait, which is one of most prevalent writing failings in games that use a conversation mechanism like the dialogue wheel, and the most common source of lines which are unintended and perceived to be out of character.

LobselVith8 is right. I play Hawke as a raging lunatic, and after I helped Feynriel out with his dreams my Hawke still says to Faynriel: may the maker guide your path Faynrial.

Video

It's around 11:50. Picking the option I will causes Hawke to comment about the maker.

I hope for DA:I our character religion isn't canonized.

Modifié par mosesarose, 23 janvier 2014 - 09:23 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Grey Wardens know the location of the remaining dragons who could become archdemons without having been there.

So they say...

If they're really the Old Gods of legend remains to be seen, but it doesn't really matter, does it, if their power works as hypothesized? 

Which powers are those? All we know of are the archdemon ones; 'singing' which attracts the 'spawn, controlling the horde and soul-jumping when killed by a non-Warden. Those powers have been observed and proven.

Morrigan didn't go into any detail with the uncorrupted 'old god' soul's powers. She just said the child would be a symbol, which isn't saying much. Hell, a rock can be a symbol. Worshipped as a god, even.

[Ieldra]

@mosesarose:
Well, that sucks. Probably, I unconsciously regarded that as a generic figure of speech, but it is clearly more than that. I wonder how many times we must complain about things like this before they do something about it. At least it's only an occasional failure in DA2 rather than endemic like in ME3.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2014 - 09:53 .

[Ieldra]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Grey Wardens know the location of the remaining dragons who could become archdemons without having been there.

So they say...

You know, I am getting really sick of these "they can lie" arguments. Somewhere, it's necessary to take *something* at face value, or we might just stop talking about anything at all. I propose to only use this argument if there is an obvious reason why we should give the "lying" assumption more weight than the "they tell the truth as they see it" assumption. I don't recall the context where this was said, but I'm rather sure they had no reason at all to lie.

If they're really the Old Gods of legend remains to be seen, but it doesn't really matter, does it, if their power works as hypothesized? 

Which powers are those? All we know of are the archdemon ones; 'singing' which attracts the 'spawn, controlling the horde and soul-jumping when killed by a non-Warden. Those powers have been observed and proven.

Morrigan didn't go into any detail with the uncorrupted 'old god' soul's powers. She just said the child would be a symbol, which isn't saying much. Hell, a rock can be a symbol. Worshipped as a god, even.

Of course I don't know. Perhaps Morrigan doesn't know either and it's an experiment. It still doesn't matter. She wants it for some secret purpose, and if it works that way, it doesn't matter if the Archdemon really was an Old God or another one of a special sort of dragon, alike to what the the Old Gods were said to be.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You know, I am getting really sick of these "they can lie" arguments. Somewhere, it's necessary to take *something* at face value, or we might just stop talking about anything at all. I propose to only use this argument if there is an obvious reason why we should give the "lying" assumption more weight than the "they tell the truth as they see it" assumption. I don't recall the context where this was said, but I'm rather sure they had no reason at all to lie.

But we're talking about Morrigan. Who explicitly doesn't take things at face value, and takes advantage of the fact that other people do.

Of course I don't know. Perhaps Morrigan doesn't know either and it's an experiment. It still doesn't matter. She wants it for some secret purpose, and if it works that way, it doesn't matter if the Archdemon really was an Old God or another one of a special sort of dragon, alike to what the the Old Gods were said to be.

I disgree she'd go that far with the Dark Ritual -- and doing it for herself instead of for Flemeth, if she didn't have some conviction in what she was setting out to achieve, much less absolute certainty that it would work. The old gods may or may not be gods in the way we define them, but the Dark Ritual was not an experiment. Morrigan knew exactly what she was doing.

Anyway. from Leliana's dialogue it sounds like Morrigan doesn't believe in the Maker or other god-like entities that can't be proven to exist. That doesn't make her an athiest unless you think a god cannot be a god if it can be directly perceived.

[Barrendall]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Grey Wardens know the location of the remaining dragons who could become archdemons without having been there. I suppose it's possible to scry them with magic. If they're really the Old Gods of legend remains to be seen, but it doesn't really matter, does it, if their power works as hypothesized? 

Is this a codex I'm not finding?  I haven't read the books so I'm relying on ingame info only and I'm curious if I'm overlooking this information somewhere.  If you could link it for me I would really appreciate the help.

[CybAnt1]

I
You know, I am getting really sick of these "they can lie" arguments. 

It may not be a matter of lying. People may have incomplete or incorrect information. 

This can be a rather big problem where most of the lore in a world is being handed down orally, in an age without video cameras, tape recordings, and everyone being literate. Stuff gets forgotten. Or it might just not have been ever known. 

Say, does anybody know how all 7 of the Old Gods wound up in those caverns in the first place? And I repeat, why are they just sitting there slumbering (presumably) until a Blight? Nothing better to do? 

I would think something imprisoned them there, but maybe it's just because they seem to me to be very inspired by the Cthulhu Mythos - kind of like the beings of the same name in WoW. Who may have been imprisoned by the Titans. (But there's some uncertainty there too. That happens when it occurred 10,000 years ago.) 

What did this in Thedas? Hmmm, nobody knows.

The Chantry says The Maker put them there. So maybe there is no Maker. If not. Whodunit? 

"What the Old Gods actually are and their relation to the Maker is very mysterious" -- so sayeth the DA Wiki. 

Read the trivia underneath. Dev inspiration. 

Dumat's name may be a reference to Dumah, the "angel of silence," in Jewish mythology. This may also be the case for Razikale who could be a reference to Raziel the "angel of mystery/God's secret".The name "Old God" could possibly be an H. P. Lovecraft reference. In many of his writings he refers to ancient, often malevolent, cosmic deities of great physical and spiritual power, some of which communicate, like the old gods, while in a state of hibernation and are capable of driving men to madness.Toth, the archdemon responsible for the third Blight, may be a reference to either Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth, two Outer Gods of Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos. Or possibly Thoth, the Egyptian god of wisdom.[/list]So their names literally reference silence, mystery, secrecy. 

Personally, I like this, like I said, I hate gameworlds with uber-defined gods -- or anti-gods. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 23 janvier 2014 - 01:56 .

[CybAnt1]

Is this a codex I'm not finding?  I haven't read the books so I'm relying on ingame info only and I'm curious if I'm overlooking this information somewhere.  If you could link it for me I would really appreciate the help.

It's on the Wiki, but the source is the book The Calling. Some people read all the books, I've read none, but at least important lore reveals in the books usually make it to the Wiki. 

According to Dragon Age: The Calling, the Grey Wardens know the locations of the prisons of each of the Old Gods, however they are in the Deep Roads and cannot easily be accessed by the Wardens without cutting through millions of darkspawn. The Architect told the Wardens that his plan involved advancing the Taint in them, before sending them through the Deep Roads undetected to kill the Old Gods.[/list]
Huh. They know where they all are, but can't get there. 

That does beg the question, doesn't it? How do they know, if they can't get there, which means they've never been there. That would also mean they've never seen a Old God before awakening and leaving its prison. 

"Scrying". I guess. Or a half-heard tale from another source, unstated. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 23 janvier 2014 - 02:03 .

[Ieldra]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You know, I am getting really sick of these "they can lie" arguments. Somewhere, it's necessary to take *something* at face value, or we might just stop talking about anything at all. I propose to only use this argument if there is an obvious reason why we should give the "lying" assumption more weight than the "they tell the truth as they see it" assumption. I don't recall the context where this was said, but I'm rather sure they had no reason at all to lie.

But we're talking about Morrigan. Who explicitly doesn't take things at face value, and takes advantage of the fact that other people do.

I said this in response to you expressing doubt of the claim that the Wardens know the location of the sleeping dragons who could become Archdemons. This is not said by or even around Morrigan, but by Grey Wardens we have no reason to doubt in the book "The Calling".

Also, I have no reason to doubt Morrigan when she says she doesn't believe in a higher power. There are things where I would question her statements based on what I know about her, but this is not one of them. It fits her and her expressed worldview perfectly. 

Anyway. from Leliana's dialogue it sounds like Morrigan doesn't believe in the Maker or other god-like entities that can't be proven to exist. That doesn't make her an athiest unless you think a god cannot be a god if it can be directly perceived.

She says she doesn't believe in higher powers. Period. That means she doesn't believe the Old Gods fall under her definition of "higher powers", i.e. she believes that they are not gods. Sounds like atheism to me, unless there are gods for which the term "higher power" is inappropriate. Since we have no hard definition of "higher power", that is not so easy to determine.

[In Exile]

tcgtqu wrote...
So if you are truely an atheist why thank god since he doesn't exsit in your opinion? I am not trying to be antagonistic, I am just really curious.

It's a meaningless expression. I'm not "thanking" god, I'm just expressing relief, and "thank god" bled into my vocabulary as an expression of it. 

Whatever original meaning it had, it doesn't carry it anymore. Frankly, I think using religious expressions with full disregard for their religious significance is one hallmark of atheist. 

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke's comment to Feynriel for the Maker to watch over him (knowing full well the young man follows the Creators) and telling Merrill that his mother was with the Maker stood out for me.

Except for the fact that you picked the religious answer in the bold case. The former case is auto-dialogue, as I recall, so reasonable people can disagree on that one, but the latter is not only an active choice, it's made after Merrill tells you she's gone to a better place and the paraphrase is "You're Right". 

[In Exile]

[quote]CastonFolarus wrote...
I disagree. Throw a person from Thedas who has no belief in the Maker or any divine being(s) into our world and what would you get? A person who would be totally confused by our technology, and would certainly have a lot of trouble understanding how it works, and it might simply be better to tell him they work because mages made them.  ]/quote]

Throw the average peasant from the 1200s into our world, and they'd say that the world was taken over by black magic. There's an understanding and knowledge gap here. 

In fact, throw in a philosopher from the 1400s here and they'd say that we've created the magical kingdom all of the greater writers of "natural magic" (the analytic precursor to science in Western thought) have always advocated. 

[quote]Yet he would completely and totally understand why Christians believe in Devils and angels. Because demons and the spirits of the Fade are something that a person from Thedas would simply accept are real, something within their realm of understanding. In no way would they qualify as an 'atheist' in our world. At least, not without a long, drawn out 'reeducation'. [/quote]

Except when we point out that we never encounter them, that there has never been a single document case of their influence, that no people interact with them, etc. 

Just because it looks similar doesn' t mean it's the same. Bioware borrowed these terms but made them real. 

[quote]Throw an atheist of our world into Thedas? The foundation of their understanding of the world is shifted. Magic than can defy the laws of physics and thermodynamics. Demons that can posses your very soul. As Captain Barbossa would say, "You'd best start believing in ghost stories. You're in one!" [/quote]

You're just completely wrong. Throw me - an atheist - into Thedas, and the foundation of absolutely nothing has shifted. Magic is just a natural force. It defies nothing because Thedas has differnet physical rules. So what if suddenly five people can violate what is a "law" of entropy IRL? 

If you transport me to mass effect with its magic neutriono and absurd immunolgy, that won't suddenly make me believe that demons are real. 

Just because some concepts are similar and mechanically work doesn't prove anything. This is "IF Aliens, THEN Jesus" logic. 

[Ieldra]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I
You know, I am getting really sick of these "they can lie" arguments. 

It may not be a matter of lying. People may have incomplete or incorrect information.

The context of my statement was someone using "....so they say" as an argument to undermine the statement of the Wardens as evidence about lore. I find this methodically dishonest. The reason why the information can be supposedly incorrect does not matter, the point was "How far can we use statements by characters as arguments in a debate about lore. The thing is, the majority of lore is written from a character perspective, so by throwing "they may not know better or lie" around you can basically undermine everything. I find it dishonest to dismiss character statements as evidence in debates about lore unless we have a plausible reason to believe the information they have may be incorrect.

Regarding the matter in question: A Grey Warden says that the Wardens know where the dragons sleep who might become archdemons. Now, unless we have a reason to believe that the Wardens have incorrect information or are lying, we should assume that they really do know and consider arguments based on the assumption that they don't really know as methodically flawed, and dismiss them. Consequently, we should accept that it is possible to know where they are and that Morrigan may know as well, and that her plans aren't based on mere assumptions about the existence of these dragons. Doing anything else means dismissing evidence with no plausible reason and engaging in speculation in a vacuum.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke's comment to Feynriel for the Maker to watch over him (knowing full well the young man follows the Creators) and telling Merrill that his mother was with the Maker stood out for me.

Except for the fact that you picked the religious answer in the bold case. The former case is auto-dialogue, as I recall, so reasonable people can disagree on that one, but the latter is not only an active choice, it's made after Merrill tells you she's gone to a better place and the paraphrase is "You're Right". 

There is no opposing point of view available. People prior to me have brought this to your attention before you and I discussed this, as well as their issue with Hawke being limited to expressing only one point of view with no counterpoint available: a religiously Andrastian perspective. The Warden, in contrast, could say that he didn't believe in the Maker, and it's the removal of this freedom to shape the protagonist that some of us take issue with.

[Ieldra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke's comment to Feynriel for the Maker to watch over him (knowing full well the young man follows the Creators) and telling Merrill that his mother was with the Maker stood out for me.

Except for the fact that you picked the religious answer in the bold case. The former case is auto-dialogue, as I recall, so reasonable people can disagree on that one, but the latter is not only an active choice, it's made after Merrill tells you she's gone to a better place and the paraphrase is "You're Right". 

There is no opposing point of view available. People prior to me have brought this to your attention before you and I discussed this, as well as their issue with Hawke being limited to expressing only one point of view with no counterpoint available: a religiously Andrastian perspective. The Warden, in contrast, could say that he didn't believe in the Maker, and it's the removal of this freedom to shape the protagonist that some of us take issue with.

Are you saying this is a dialogue wheel instance with only one option?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2014 - 04:53 .