335 réponses à ce sujet

[HK-90210]

In Exile wrote...
You're just completely wrong. Throw me - an atheist - into Thedas, and the foundation of absolutely nothing has shifted. Magic is just a natural force. It defies nothing because Thedas has differnet physical rules. So what if suddenly five people can violate what is a "law" of entropy IRL? 

If you transport me to mass effect with its magic neutriono and absurd immunolgy, that won't suddenly make me believe that demons are real. 

Just because some concepts are similar and mechanically work doesn't prove anything. This is "IF Aliens, THEN Jesus" logic.

Magic is not a barrier to atheism in Thedas. The Fade, and the Black/Golden City, are. Magic alone cannot explain them. If it could, then there would be at least ONE culture in Thedas that would provide an explaination as to what it is, and why it is there. The cultures of the elves and humans all have thier own theories, but they all agree that there needs to be some kind of otherworldly explaination. Whether that's the Maker, the Creators, the Old Gods, or that the Fade is imply the Land of the Dead, as the Qunari believe.

Given the general theology of Thedas, it becomes clear that there is some kind of mystery behind the that world. It isn't necesaily clear what, if anything, is true. But making the case that there isn't any mystery at all, as atheism does, doesn't make much sense in the world of Thedas. It has as much a place in Thedas as Christianity, in my opinion. They are concepts of our world, ones that make little sense there.

Just the opinion of your average ex-atheist, though. YMMV.

[Ieldra]

CastonFolarus wrote...

In Exile wrote...
You're just completely wrong. Throw me - an atheist - into Thedas, and the foundation of absolutely nothing has shifted. Magic is just a natural force. It defies nothing because Thedas has differnet physical rules. So what if suddenly five people can violate what is a "law" of entropy IRL? 

If you transport me to mass effect with its magic neutriono and absurd immunolgy, that won't suddenly make me believe that demons are real. 

Just because some concepts are similar and mechanically work doesn't prove anything. This is "IF Aliens, THEN Jesus" logic.

Magic is not a barrier to atheism in Thedas. The Fade, and the Black/Golden City, are. Magic alone cannot explain them. If it could, then there would be at least ONE culture in Thedas that would provide an explaination as to what it is, and why it is there. The cultures of the elves and humans all have thier own theories, but they all agree that there needs to be some kind of otherworldly explaination. Whether that's the Maker, the Creators, the Old Gods, or that the Fade is imply the Land of the Dead, as the Qunari believe.

Given the general theology of Thedas, it becomes clear that there is some kind of mystery behind the that world. It isn't necesaily clear what, if anything, is true. But making the case that there isn't any mystery at all, as atheism does, doesn't make much sense in the world of Thedas. It has as much a place in Thedas as Christianity, in my opinion. They are concepts of our world, ones that make little sense there.

Just the opinion of your average ex-atheist, though. YMMV.

That something is unknown should not predispose you towards a supernatural explanation, even less if there exists no independent evidence of any supernatural force. There is no such barrier to atheism on Thedas. For instance, it's perfectly possible to construct theories about the nature of the Fade that don't make recourse to gods, using only in-world concepts and knowledge. In fact, I have done so from an in-world perspective for my main Warden Eorlin Amell. The Black City is a location in the Fade, the significance of which we do not know. That does not mean any gods played a role in its history.

Also, the honest answer to a mystery, i.e. a question you can't answer, is "I do not know", not "A god did it". And theology is not indicative of anything. Religious tales are instructional, not descriptive, they will always tend to bend the facts until they suit a specific ideology.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2014 - 06:11 .

[LobselVith8]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There is no opposing point of view available. People prior to me have brought this to your attention before you and I discussed this, as well as their issue with Hawke being limited to expressing only one point of view with no counterpoint available: a religiously Andrastian perspective. The Warden, in contrast, could say that he didn't believe in the Maker, and it's the removal of this freedom to shape the protagonist that some of us take issue with.

Are you saying this is a dialogue wheel instance with only one option?

The other two dialogue options have Hawke mad at Merrill; there's actually no dialogue option for Hawke to express that he doesn't believe in the Maker, which is echoed in the dialogue with Sebastian where you can affirm belief in the Maker and Andraste, but you don't have the option to express that you don't believe.

You're restricted to expressing that you believe in the Maker if when you're given an option to express a point of view, but you're not given an option to express an opposing point of view - that you don't believe in the Maker.

In contrast, The Warden could say he didn't think Andraste was divine and that he didn't believe in the Maker.

[AlanC9]

Going back to Morrigan's statement, what does it mean to "believe in" a higher power? If I believe that higher powers exist, in the sense of powerful alien beings existing, does that mean I "believe in" them?

[AlanC9]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That something is unknown should not predispose you towards a supernatural explanation, even less if there exists no independent evidence of any supernatural force. There is no such barrier to atheism on Thedas. For instance, it's perfectly possible to construct theories about the nature of the Fade that don't make recourse to gods, using only in-world concepts and knowledge. In fact, I have done so from an in-world perspective for my main Warden Eorlin Amell. The Black City is a location in the Fade, the significance of which we do not know. That does not mean any gods played a role in its history.

Is the supernatural/natural distinction really applicable to Thedas? In a world where magic is observable and measurable, what's the difference?

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 janvier 2014 - 11:08 .

[Willowhugger]

That something is unknown should not predispose you towards a supernatural explanation, even less if there exists no independent evidence of any supernatural force. There is no such barrier to atheism on Thedas. For instance, it's perfectly possible to construct theories about the nature of the Fade that don't make recourse to gods, using only in-world concepts and knowledge. In fact, I have done so from an in-world perspective for my main Warden Eorlin Amell. The Black City is a location in the Fade, the significance of which we do not know. That does not mean any gods played a role in its history.

Also, the honest answer to a mystery, i.e. a question you can't answer, is "I do not know", not "A god did it". And theology is not indicative of anything. Religious tales are instructional, not descriptive, they will always tend to bend the facts until they suit a specific ideology.

How are we defining atheist and how are we defining gods?

I could describe Yahweh as a multi-dimensional alien that's everywhere and every-when at once but that doesn't make him a non-supernatural being if I gave him a pseudo-scientific classificiation.

[Ieldra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There is no opposing point of view available. People prior to me have brought this to your attention before you and I discussed this, as well as their issue with Hawke being limited to expressing only one point of view with no counterpoint available: a religiously Andrastian perspective. The Warden, in contrast, could say that he didn't believe in the Maker, and it's the removal of this freedom to shape the protagonist that some of us take issue with.

Are you saying this is a dialogue wheel instance with only one option?

The other two dialogue options have Hawke mad at Merrill; there's actually no dialogue option for Hawke to express that he doesn't believe in the Maker, which is echoed in the dialogue with Sebastian where you can affirm belief in the Maker and Andraste, but you don't have the option to express that you don't believe.

You're restricted to expressing that you believe in the Maker if when you're given an option to express a point of view, but you're not given an option to express an opposing point of view - that you don't believe in the Maker.

In contrast, The Warden could say he didn't think Andraste was divine and that he didn't believe in the Maker.

I don't recall the conversation. Can you tell me exactly when you get it? Regardless, if that's so, then it sucks. While I don't necessarily need to express that I don't believe in any gods, I very much want to express that I don't believe in specific gods. Most notably the Maker. If there is an option affirming belief, there should also be an option affirming disbelief, given that the context justifies such expression.  

In this case, the opposing viewpoint would not be that, though. It would be that you don't believe in any afterlife, which is not necessarily connected to a (dis)belief in gods.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2014 - 06:33 .

[LobselVith8]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The other two dialogue options have Hawke mad at Merrill; there's actually no dialogue option for Hawke to express that he doesn't believe in the Maker, which is echoed in the dialogue with Sebastian where you can affirm belief in the Maker and Andraste, but you don't have the option to express that you don't believe. 

You're restricted to expressing that you believe in the Maker if when you're given an option to express a point of view, but you're not given an option to express an opposing point of view - that you don't believe in the Maker. 

In contrast, The Warden could say he didn't think Andraste was divine and that he didn't believe in the Maker. 

I don't recall the conversation. Can you tell me exactly when you get it? Regardless, if that's so, then it sucks. While I don't necessarily need to express that I don't believe in any gods, I very much want to express that I don't believe in specific gods. Most notably the Maker. If there is an option affirming belief, there should also be an option affirming disbelief, given that the context justifies such expression.

In this case, the opposing viewpoint would not be that, though. It would be that you don't believe in any afterlife, which is not necessarily connected to a (dis)belief in gods. 

I was also thinking about the dialogue with Sebastian when I addressed that, although I see your point about the scene with Merrill. The scene with Merrill happens if you romance her, after Leandra's death.

[Ieldra]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

That something is unknown should not predispose you towards a supernatural explanation, even less if there exists no independent evidence of any supernatural force. There is no such barrier to atheism on Thedas. For instance, it's perfectly possible to construct theories about the nature of the Fade that don't make recourse to gods, using only in-world concepts and knowledge. In fact, I have done so from an in-world perspective for my main Warden Eorlin Amell. The Black City is a location in the Fade, the significance of which we do not know. That does not mean any gods played a role in its history.

Is the supernatural/natural distinction really applicable to Thedas? In a world where magic is obervable and measurable, what's the difference?

"Supernatural" was a shorthand in this case. It is, in fact, an arbitrary distinction everywhere and, strictly spoken, can only apply to speculative entities. As soon as any entity proves its existence by acting in a way impossible to ignore and thereby revealing itself in a way impossible to ignore, our minds will integrate it as a part of the natural universe. Magic is a natural force, The Fade is an aspect of the universe where different laws apply, and those domains of life which include the Old Gods, Flemeth etc. are, within the world of Thedas, as natural as any other. 

Which, of course, means that with everything else being equal, "A super-powerful entity did it" has equal validity as an explanation as any other which makes no recourse to such entities. The thing is, everything else is usually not equal. Most things aren't moved around or influenced by gods or mages, so it doesn't make sense to prefer explanations involving them unless there is some reason to believe that they may actually be involved. There are hints in the story that the Veil may be an artificial construct, thus, even though we don't know yet, I am predisposed towards explanations that make it so. Without those hints, I would be predisposed to the explanation that the Veil has always existed.

A mystery is a question with no answer. It is usually standard procedure to use existing concepts as an explanation before assuming that some hitherto unknown force may be involved, and those who use explanations like "The Old Gods did it" need to provide evidence of motivation, opportunity and power just as those using impersonal explanations need to provide evidence that the laws they are using actually apply and that the conditions that set the events in motion really existed. In a world like Thedas, "A God did it" can be a plausible explanation, but even here it should not be used as a cop-out to mask ignorance. If you do not know and don't have enough facts to make a plausible hypothesis, the answer should be "I have no idea."

[Ieldra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I was also thinking about the dialogue with Sebastian when I addressed that, although I see your point about the scene with Merrill. The scene with Merrill happens if you romance her, after Leandra's death.

Ah. No wonder I don't know it then. I have romanced Merril only once, and that 2.5 years ago.

[Willowhugger]

"Supernatural" was a shorthand in this case. It is, in fact, an arbitrary distinction everywhere and, strictly spoken, can only apply to speculative entities. As soon as any entity proves its existence by acting in a way impossible to ignore and thereby revealing itself in a way impossible to ignore, our minds will integrate it as a part of the natural universe. Magic is a natural force, The Fade is an aspect of the universe where different laws apply, and those domains of life which include the Old Gods, Flemeth etc. are, within the world of Thedas, as natural as any other.

That would imply that if a miracle was confirmed, God would cease to be supernatural. The problem with this is many-many religious people believe in miracles and events which prove the existence of God and do not rely on "faith" because they believe God literally manifests himself. This would be doubly true in Thedas.

I.e. people believe Andraste was the Bride of the Maker and her Ashes heal people.

Ergo, the Maker is real.

I believe you can be an atheist in Dragon Age but I can understand if it's a trifle different.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 23 janvier 2014 - 07:05 .

[Ieldra]

Willowhugger wrote...

That something is unknown should not predispose you towards a supernatural explanation, even less if there exists no independent evidence of any supernatural force. There is no such barrier to atheism on Thedas. For instance, it's perfectly possible to construct theories about the nature of the Fade that don't make recourse to gods, using only in-world concepts and knowledge. In fact, I have done so from an in-world perspective for my main Warden Eorlin Amell. The Black City is a location in the Fade, the significance of which we do not know. That does not mean any gods played a role in its history.

Also, the honest answer to a mystery, i.e. a question you can't answer, is "I do not know", not "A god did it". And theology is not indicative of anything. Religious tales are instructional, not descriptive, they will always tend to bend the facts until they suit a specific ideology.

How are we defining atheist and how are we defining gods?

I could describe Yahweh as a multi-dimensional alien that's everywhere and every-when at once but that doesn't make him a non-supernatural being if I gave him a pseudo-scientific classificiation.

Incorrect.

Tell me, assuming some god exists, which attribute makes it supernatural? I'll illustrate the problem to you:

One possible answer is "It uses powers which are impossible." Well, that is an oxymororn. The fact that an entity uses certain powers is proof that those powers are, in fact, perfectly possible, and that we need to revise our opinion of what is possible and not rather than insisting on the previous definition of what's possible and claim this entity is an exception.

Do you know Clarke's Third Law? "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Think this through, and you'll get to the following corollary: any entity wielding sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a god. The classification "supernatural" rests on certain predispositions which the existence of the entity in question would undermine if  you think things through to the end.   

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2014 - 07:17 .

[dragonflight288]

Do you know Clarke's Third Law? "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Think this through, and you'll get to the following corollary: any entity wielding sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a god. The classification "supernatural" rests on certain predispositions which the existence of the entity in question would undermine if you think things through to the end.

I know this law, even though this wasn't addressed to me, but this is most certainly fun to think about.

[Willowhugger]

The term supernatural is one which assumes religious interventions are not natural. Which is kind of a mistake as a religious perspective would assume that a Maker figure is a perfectly natural part of the universe.

Clarke's Third Law actually would be a way for religion and science to co-exist perfectly.

As many modern Christians such as myself believe.

"God is like Doctor Manhattan!"

[Ieldra]

Willowhugger wrote...

"Supernatural" was a shorthand in this case. It is, in fact, an arbitrary distinction everywhere and, strictly spoken, can only apply to speculative entities. As soon as any entity proves its existence by acting in a way impossible to ignore and thereby revealing itself in a way impossible to ignore, our minds will integrate it as a part of the natural universe. Magic is a natural force, The Fade is an aspect of the universe where different laws apply, and those domains of life which include the Old Gods, Flemeth etc. are, within the world of Thedas, as natural as any other.

That would imply that if a miracle was confirmed, God would cease to be supernatural. The problem with this is many-many religious people believe in miracles and events which prove the existence of God and do not rely on "faith" because they believe God literally manifests himself. This would be doubly true in Thedas.

As I said: for a methodically sound hypothesis, if you construct an explanation involving certain individuals or entities, you need to provide evidence of motivation, opportunity and power. Merely asserting them is not evidence. Thus, to perceive an event as a miracle is an act of faith, and once you *can* provide such evidence, what will be left of the entity's supernaturalness?

I believe you can be an atheist in Dragon Age but I can understand if it's a trifle different.

The difference is that some powerful entities with mysterious powers and natures do exist and that some people call them gods. The possibility of being atheist rests on your answer to this question: do you accept "god" as a valid term denoting such entities, regardless of your acceptance of any spiritual significance? If so, then gods do exist and you can't be an atheist. However, for those who believe, the spiritual signficance is what makes a god a god, and spiritual significance, as long as any religious worldview isn't canonically confirmed as metaphysically true, is always something that only exists in our minds. Well, even should one be confirmed, it is always possible to deny a deity's divinity. The Gnostics thought the god of the other Christian sects was an evil "demiurge" that tried to lead people astray. They weren't atheists since they believed a real god existed nonetheless, but deny all gods' divinity without a replacement and you're an atheist.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2014 - 07:33 .

[Willowhugger]

I actually more or less agree with you.

Even if "God" appeared tomorrow, if you didn't worship him or ascribe him any religious significance and considered him an alien--you're an atheist.

Otherwise, Captain Picard and so on would all worship Q.

[HK-90210]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That something is unknown should not predispose you towards a supernatural explanation, even less if there exists no independent evidence of any supernatural force. There is no such barrier to atheism on Thedas. For instance, it's perfectly possible to construct theories about the nature of the Fade that don't make recourse to gods, using only in-world concepts and knowledge. In fact, I have done so from an in-world perspective for my main Warden Eorlin Amell. The Black City is a location in the Fade, the significance of which we do not know. That does not mean any gods played a role in its history.

I agree it should not predispose you. However, in a world like Thedas, the supernatural is far, far more likely to be seen or heard. In that world, it is a more likely explaination for things. Which is why the atheism of our world is not a concept that is going to be particularily popular in Thedas. It's simply easier, and far more logical in that universe to accept the supernatural.

An atheist, in my opinion, refuses to accept the supernatural as a viable explaination for things such as the Fade or the Black City. And Istress supernatural, not just God or gods. But if you're going to completely rule out the supernautral in a world like Thedas, you are metagaming. You're taking what you know in the real world and applying it in a way that doesn't make sense in the game. In Thedas, the supernatural is a normal explaination, even if it's bull.

Remindsme of that guy who killed elven children in DAII. 'A Demon made me do it!' and all that. Even if a demon didn't actually make him do it(and given the fact that the mages said he wasn't possessed, that seems to be
the case), thinking that a demon had something to do with his behavior is not just blindly follwoing accepted Chantry theology. It's a perfectly logical explaination. And in Thedas, most people will accept that kind of thinking, becasue it is not only easier, it fits with what they observe about their world.

In our world, the general practice is to assume that whatever happens, it has to do with something within the natural world. Even if it doesn't necesarily make total sense, we'regoing to need a great deal of evidence to prove otherwise. And even that evidence wouldn't convince some people if they saw it.

In a midevil world like Thedas, it's the opposite. The supernatural is the default explaination for things like the Fade and the Black City, mostly because the supernaturalexplaination is easier, and more plausible within the experiences of those living in Thedas.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Also, the honest answer to a mystery, i.e. a question you can't answer, is "I do not know", not "A god did it". And theology is not indicative of anything. Religious tales are instructional, not descriptive, they will always tend to bend the facts until they suit a specific ideology.

If a person's response to the mystery is 'I don't know', that puts them pretty solidly in the agnostic camp. Not atheist. Agnosticism is a perfectly acceptable and logical rock to stand on in a world like Thedas, with its very deep and murky mythos. Fact is, there's no way to be 100% sure. My guess is that the devs will make sure that we're never sure. Keeps thread like this alive.

And I agree that theology will certainly bend things to the purposes of the author. Theology isn't just history, it's much deeper than that. But if there's one thing I've learned in my study of religion, it's that every religion has within it at least some measure of truth. None of them have the whole story. The same is true in Thedas. That doesn't mean that there isn't a lot to be gleaned from such tales. Each of them have truth in there somewhere, even if it boils down to simple wisdom.

Again, all of this hinges on my opinion that being an atheist is more than just not believing in God. To me, it takes a lot more than that to qualify. For instance: Dwarves, at least non-surface ones, do not believe in a actual god. But they revere the Stone, without worshipping it. They feel that the Stone influences their lives, and if they are worthy, they will return and rest in the stone after they die. They do not believe in a god, but that hardly sounds atheist to me.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 23 janvier 2014 - 07:42 .

[Ieldra]

Willowhugger wrote...
The term supernatural is one which assumes religious interventions are not natural. Which is kind of a mistake as a religious perspective would assume that a Maker figure is a perfectly natural part of the universe.

An interesting perspective, but are you sure this is true? This would open a whole can of worms of logical conclusions which would end in that entity not having some of the attributes its religion claims it has. 

As many modern Christians such as myself believe.

"God is like Doctor Manhattan!"

I think we're getting a little too far away from Thedas here, so I won't continue this, but the lack of positive evidence of its existence is still a problem. 

[Willowhugger]

I think we're getting a little too far away from Thedas here, so I won't continue this, but the lack of positive evidence of its existence is still a problem.

I'm just saying there's a Catholic Board of Science designed to study miracles in hopes of finding proof of God's existence and, and this by no means forwards a certainty (because we don't obviously have proof or this issue would be moot), this would not change things for most religious believers. The uncertainty is not a central tenant of the religion and hasn't been for most of history.

In Thedas, basically, people believe in the Maker and may or may not be wrong.
However, if Andraste was working miracles left and right it wouldn't change things.

You could argue proof certainty would not mean the necessity of worship, though, as the Dwarves have their Ancestor spirits literally exist as we fight numerous ones.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 23 janvier 2014 - 07:51 .

[Ieldra]

CastonFolarus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

That something is unknown should not predispose you towards a supernatural explanation, even less if there exists no independent evidence of any supernatural force. There is no such barrier to atheism on Thedas. For instance, it's perfectly possible to construct theories about the nature of the Fade that don't make recourse to gods, using only in-world concepts and knowledge. In fact, I have done so from an in-world perspective for my main Warden Eorlin Amell. The Black City is a location in the Fade, the significance of which we do not know. That does not mean any gods played a role in its history.

I agree it should not predispose you. However, in a world like Thedas, the supernatural is far, far more likely to be seen or heard. In that world, it is a more likely explaination for things. Which is why the atheism of our world is not a concept that is going to be particularily popular in Thedas. It's simply easier, and far more logical in that universe to accept the supernatural.

An atheist, in my opinion, refuses to accept the supernatural as a viable explaination for things such as the Fade or the Black City. And Istress supernatural, not just God or gods. But if you're going to completely rule out the supernautral in a world like Thedas, you are metagaming. You're taking what you know in the real world and applying it in a way that doesn't make sense in the game. In Thedas, the supernatural is a normal explaination, even if it's bull.

I say it's a matter of terminology. If I watched a ghostly entity manifesting in my home today, and proceed to extend a ghostly limb, after which I would see my hand transform into a claw, then I'd certainly acknowledge its existence. I might even call it a demon. However, I would not call it supernatural. Instead, I would conclude that the laws of nature apparently allow the existence of such an entity and that I was wrong in my previous assumption that they didn't. Well, once I excluded the possibility of hallucinations, that is.

I am indeed ruling out the supernatural, because what is supernatural in RL is perfectly natural on Thedas. If I can know something to be true, then it isn't supernatural. Spirits do exist, powerful entities do exist who are revered as gods by some. The Fade exists, a mysterious aspect of the universe which is apparently shaped by the collective dreams of people and the minds of spirits, and quite possibly the minds of those powers to an even greater degree. It would be ludicrous to deny all that. But beyond which nature are these things? Isn't it more that the laws of nature in Thedas allow the existence of all these phenomena? 

Ieldra2 wrote...
Also, the honest answer to a mystery, i.e. a question you can't answer, is "I do not know", not "A god did it". And theology is not indicative of anything. Religious tales are instructional, not descriptive, they will always tend to bend the facts until they suit a specific ideology.

If a person's response to the mystery is 'I don't know', that puts them pretty solidly in the agnostic camp. Not atheist. Agnosticism is a perfectly acceptable and logical rock to stand on in a world like Thedas, with its very deep and murky mythos. Fact is, there's no way to be 100% sure. My guess is that the devs will make sure that we're never sure. Keeps thread like this alive.

Ah, I see. You are using what is often called "strong atheism", which is indeed not very plausible on Thedas in the face of the fact that entities like Flemeth really do things and we can even talk to them. The Maker, however, is not in the same category. The thing which I refuse even on Thedas is twofold:

(1) Believing in the unseen with no evidence. I know there are demons, so I know they can be responsible for things. They may or may not be in specific cases, and I may be skeptical unless I find a method to reveal them, but I can't rule out the possibility. I can see Flemeth or the Archdemons, which some say are the Old Gods. I have seen Flemeth shapechange into a dragon and do otherwise mysterious powerful stuff. Assuming she can do more mysterious and powerful stuff, and believing some of the stories about what she has done is perfectly reasonable. The Maker, however, is different. Nobody has ever seen him or witnessed anything which can be undeniably attributed to him. Assuming that he doesn't exist is perfectly reasonable, and I find it insulting that Aveline and Morrigan can express disbelief but that Bioware won't allow my protagonist to do the same.

(2) Accepting something's spiritual significance. With which I mean, authority over what's to be considered good and bad, how people should live their lives, what is virtue and what is vice, what is sin etc.. I may roleplay characters who do, here and there, but my main protagonists will never, ever accept any other person's or entity's authority in such things.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2014 - 08:31 .

[Rotward]

Tch. So the main character is guaranteed to be a retard. Great.

[Ieldra]

Rotward wrote...
Tch. So the main character is guaranteed to be a retard. Great.

*Chuckles*
That your first contribution to this thread is a line like this tells me exactly who the retard is.

[Rotward]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rotward wrote...
Tch. So the main character is guaranteed to be a retard. Great.

*Chuckles*
That your first contribution to this thread is a line like this tells me exactly who the retard is.

You made a thread arguing the semantics of greater power versus higher power, and I'm the retard? Right. 

[Hellion Rex]

Rotward wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rotward wrote...
Tch. So the main character is guaranteed to be a retard. Great.

*Chuckles*
That your first contribution to this thread is a line like this tells me exactly who the retard is.

You made a thread arguing the semantics of greater power versus higher power, and I'm the retard? Right. 

Yeah...I'm gonna say that Ieldra could curbstomp most of us in a battle of wits. She's probably one of the smartest, and most well written/well read posters on this forum.

Modifié par eluvianix, 23 janvier 2014 - 08:59 .

[Rotward]

eluvianix wrote...

Rotward wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rotward wrote...
Tch. So the main character is guaranteed to be a retard. Great.

*Chuckles*
That your first contribution to this thread is a line like this tells me exactly who the retard is.

You made a thread arguing the semantics of greater power versus higher power, and I'm the retard? Right. 

Yeah...I'm gonna say that Ieldra could curbstomp most of us in a battle of wits. She's probably one of the smartest, and most well written/well read posters on this forum.

Curbstomp + wits = amusing image.