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Morrigan and the attitude towards gods: a request for clarification


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#201
In Exile

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CastonFolarus wrote...
Magic is not a barrier to atheism in Thedas. The Fade, and the Black/Golden City, are.


No, they aren't. 

Magic alone cannot explain them.


Yes, it can. Do you think the existence of the universe is some barrier to science or atheism? What about human mortality? What about consciousness? Our best scientific models can't explain it. Does that somehow mean that souls are real and we should all convert to one out of 30 strains of Christianity to save our souls from eternal damnation?

If it could, then there would be at least ONE culture in Thedas that would provide an explaination as to what it is, and why it is there. The cultures of the elves and humans all have thier own theories, but they all agree that there needs to be some kind of otherworldly explaination. Whether that's the Maker, the Creators, the Old Gods, or that the Fade is imply the Land of the Dead, as the Qunari believe.


For the last 10,000 years, excluding maybe the last 100, we have never had a theory of cosmology that did not involve gods... until science came on the scene as mature physics. 

The fact some ass-backwards tribe from 4000 BC believed that the moon mother created the universe is not proof that the explanation has to be a god.

#202
Sylvius the Mad

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AlanC9 wrote...

Are those limitations actually real? Is Hawke actually more limited than, say, the Bhaalspawn? Only in the sense that things come up in DA2 that just don't come up in BG2.

Your design for the Bhaalspawn is less likely to be broken by the game, because there you have the ability to avoid character-breaking remarks.

You have no such ability in DA2.

#203
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CastonFolarus wrote...
If a person's response to the mystery is 'I don't know', that puts them pretty solidly in the agnostic camp. Not atheist. Agnosticism is a perfectly acceptable and logical rock to stand on in a world like Thedas, with its very deep and murky mythos. Fact is, there's no way to be 100% sure. My guess is that the devs will make sure that we're never sure. Keeps thread like this alive.


There is no 100% way for you to be sure I exist. Hell, you can't be 100% sure you aren't a brain in a vat. Descartes discretied the idea of certainty as a meaningful philosophical concept centuries ago. 

#204
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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Your design for the Bhaalspawn is less likely to be broken by the game, because there you have the ability to avoid character-breaking remarks.

You have no such ability in DA2.


I can't recall BG2, but DA:O absolutely has character-breaking situations. The only reason you do not see them is that you think adding a "I refuse to answer" option prevents a character from being broken. 

#205
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AlanC9 wrote...
I'm not really happy with "doesn't make sense" above. People find arguments from design awfully attractive in a world with zero  evidence of intelligent "supernatural" beings intervening. How much more attractive would those arguments be in a world where such interference is a known fact? I'm not even sure a "naturalistic" explanation would pass the parsimony principle in a world full of Fade spirits.


Why would that be different than our world? We have people who design things all the time. Would a person from 100 AD somehow be justified in believing God is real because humans from 2000 AD can fly and talk to each other across the world, and so basically do reality altering things that are pure fantasy in his conception?

There's nothing special about how Thedas is set up to believe in a non-mechanical explanation for anything. In fact, the very way magic is studied suggests that their basic theory of it is mechanical. 

#206
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In Exile wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...
If a person's response to the mystery is 'I don't know', that puts them pretty solidly in the agnostic camp. Not atheist. Agnosticism is a perfectly acceptable and logical rock to stand on in a world like Thedas, with its very deep and murky mythos. Fact is, there's no way to be 100% sure. My guess is that the devs will make sure that we're never sure. Keeps thread like this alive.


There is no 100% way for you to be sure I exist. Hell, you can't be 100% sure you aren't a brain in a vat. Descartes discretied the idea of certainty as a meaningful philosophical concept centuries ago. 


I'm not sure how what you're saying contradicts what he's saying, because he's right.

Atheism is disbelief. Agnosticism is non-belief.

Unless you were making an aside? Nvm then.


As for the topic--this again? Yawn.

#207
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EntropicAngel wrote...

I'm not sure how what you're saying contradicts what he's saying, because he's right.


No. I am saying that the standard for "certain" as we use it IRL can't be "100% certain" because no fact is absolute like that. If we're, say, "pretty sure", then that's as "certain" as we get. And generally that just means something like preponderance of the evidence points in favour. 

Atheism is disbelief. Agnosticism is non-belief.


Yes, but "I think your claim is BS" is disbelief that doesn't mean I need to think anything else is true or 100% certain. 

Modifié par In Exile, 24 janvier 2014 - 06:03 .


#208
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In Exile wrote...

No. I am saying that the standard for "certain" as we use it IRL can't be "100% certain" because no fact is absolute like that. If we're, say, "pretty sure", then that's as "certain" as we get. And generally that just means something like preponderance of the evidence points in favour.


Alright. You're pointing out that his "nothing is 100% certain" is not as significant as he thinks it is. Okay.


Atheism is disbelief. Agnosticism is non-belief.


Yes, but "I think your claim is BS" is disbelief that doesn't mean I need to think anything else is true or 100% certain. 


Indeed, which is why there's...nonbelief, otherwise known as agnosticism.

I'd argue that agnosticism should be the "scientific" perspective, not atheism.

#209
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EntropicAngel wrote...
Indeed, which is why there's...nonbelief, otherwise known as agnosticism.


No. I think your claim is BS, i.e., that the God you describe exists, is certainly atheism. Trying to call that agnosticism is wordplay. No, I don't deny that all possible permunations of "God" that might be imaginable don't exist, because we haven't even discussed any of them. If I deny that all entities currently held out as Gods do not exist, then I'm an atheist. If I say that I don't believe the balance of evidence suggests a God is false, but also that the evidence isn't good enough to say that God is real, then I'm an agnostic.

I'd argue that agnosticism should be the "scientific" perspective, not atheism.


No. Religion makes clear and refutable claims. Atheist (as against any monotheistic god) is the scientific position. Religion makes falsifable claims and we can disprove them. Something like Atheism (as against a deist god with no involvement in the universe) is nonsense because there's no possible way to distinguish between god/no-god. In that regard agnosticism is scientific, but only in the sense that it would be impossible (and nonsensical) to say that reason favours one over the other. 

#210
AlanC9

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In Exile wrote...

Why would that be different than our world? We have people who design things all the time. Would a person from 100 AD somehow be justified in believing God is real because humans from 2000 AD can fly and talk to each other across the world, and so basically do reality altering things that are pure fantasy in his conception?


I don't see how belief in God enters into that example. Belief in magic, sure.

Is whether the belief could be justified the right question? I think the burden of proof would be on the non-theists in Thedas, same as it once was here, and I also think that burden would be harder to meet in Thedas.

There's nothing special about how Thedas is set up to believe in a non-mechanical explanation for anything. In fact, the very way magic is studied suggests that their basic theory of it is mechanical. 



Don't forget the outright miracles. We participate in one in DA:O, no? And the supernatural beings, which this world does not have -- at least, not in obvious and provable form.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 janvier 2014 - 06:17 .


#211
AlanC9

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In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Your design for the Bhaalspawn is less likely to be broken by the game, because there you have the ability to avoid character-breaking remarks.

You have no such ability in DA2.


I can't recall BG2, but DA:O absolutely has character-breaking situations. The only reason you do not see them is that you think adding a "I refuse to answer" option prevents a character from being broken. 


A refusal to answer doesn't  depend on the dialogue system. If the writers want to let the character punt, they can.

#212
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In Exile wrote...

No. I think your claim is BS, i.e., that the God you describe exists, is certainly atheism. Trying to call that agnosticism is wordplay. No, I don't deny that all possible permunations of "God" that might be imaginable don't exist, because we haven't even discussed any of them. If I deny that all entities currently held out as Gods do not exist, then I'm an atheist. If I say that I don't believe the balance of evidence suggests a God is false, but also that the evidence isn't good enough to say that God is real, then I'm an agnostic.


I misunderstood you. I agreed that THAT was atheism, but:

"that doesn't mean I need to think anything else is true or 100% certain. "

--supports agnosticism.

No. Religion makes clear and refutable claims. Atheist (as against any monotheistic god) is the scientific position. Religion makes falsifable claims and we can disprove them. Something like Atheism (as against a deist god with no involvement in the universe) is nonsense because there's no possible way to distinguish between god/no-god. In that regard agnosticism is scientific, but only in the sense that it would be impossible (and nonsensical) to say that reason favours one over the other. 


How exactly do you falsify, "There is a God"?

Since religion is awfully broad, I'll just say theism is every bit as valid as atheism. Neither has true scientific support or criticism.

#213
HK-90210

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In Exile wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...
If a person's response to the mystery is 'I don't know', that puts them pretty solidly in the agnostic camp. Not atheist. Agnosticism is a perfectly acceptable and logical rock to stand on in a world like Thedas, with its very deep and murky mythos. Fact is, there's no way to be 100% sure. My guess is that the devs will make sure that we're never sure. Keeps thread like this alive.


There is no 100% way for you to be sure I exist. Hell, you can't be 100% sure you aren't a brain in a vat. Descartes discretied the idea of certainty as a meaningful philosophical concept centuries ago. 


Um...bunk. I can sure be 100% sure about many things. I can be WRONG, but I can still be sure about my belief of its existence. Or non-existence, as the case may be. It all depends on how willing I am to be mistaken.

And in case it makes you feel any better, I'm 100% sure you exist. Who you are, what you are, I have no idea. But you definately exist. Even if all you are is my alternate personality, and I've gone all Internet Fight Club on my ass, you exist.

Some people simply have a higher standard of certainty than others, I guess.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 24 janvier 2014 - 06:28 .


#214
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EntropicAngel wrote...

Atheism is disbelief. Agnosticism is non-belief.

That sounds more like positive and negative atheism to me.

#215
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Filament wrote...

That sounds more like positive and negative atheism to me.


Nope.

Atheism is disbelief.

Considering that your own link says this:

"Under this positive/negative classification, some agnostics would qualify as negative atheists. The validity of this categorization is disputed, however, and a few prominent atheists such asRichard Dawkins avoid it."

--I see no reason to accept "implicit" and "explicit" atheism. It's a philosophical concept that directly contradicts actual word definitions. Atheism is disbelief, agnosticism is non-belief.

#216
Rotward

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Filament wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Atheism is disbelief. Agnosticism is non-belief.

That sounds more like positive and negative atheism to me.

@Entropic those two words are synonyms.  

@Filament Either you believe in deities, or you don't. The gray only exists for agnostics, who shrug the question off entirely. Being assertive in one's convictions is a personaly trait.

Edit: I made a post devoted entirely to semantics, and I am ashamed! So, on topic, don't see why belief in god(s) is a given. We've got the dwarves worshipping stone, which is certainly real, but not a god per-se. The Qun doesn't seem to have a god either. We've seen people worship dragons, but dragons aren't even sapient, it seems. Finally we have the elven pantheon, and the andrastian maker. Both factions use existance as their evidence: look at all this stuff, it must have been intelligent design!

The archdemon is the closest thing to a god that we've seen in dragon age, and while difficult to kill, it could be slain. So I'd say atheism is still a valid stance in thedas. 

Modifié par Rotward, 24 janvier 2014 - 07:15 .


#217
Ieldra

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AlanC9 wrote...
Are those limitations actually real? Is Hawke actually more limited than, say, the Bhaalspawn? Only in the sense that things come up in DA2 that just don't come up in BG2.

(1) The observational evidence: Hawke is more limited than the Warden, Shepard is more limited than...well, pretty much every other protagonist in Bioware's games (caveat: I don't know Jade Empire). What have the ME trilogy and DA2 in common? They are where Bioware switched to voiced protagonists and paraphrasing.

(2) The theoretical rationale (voiced protagonist): it is considerable more work to create a spoken line for a character than to create a written line. With the economic pressure of game development being what it is, there is a much bigger incentive to cut down the options to the bare bones of what makes the story work. These options must cover a wide range of possible player intentions, and thus, the fewer options there are, the more generic they need to be. The logical end to this is generic autodialogue for everything that isn't a plot-affecting decision. Cue ME3. This development is not unavoidable, but for any developer who wants to avoid it, it's a constant uphill battle against the bean counters.

(3) The theoretical rationale (paraphrasing): Paraphrases, for some unfathomable reason, apparently need to be short. Which means that even considering that there is a lot of redundancy in spoken language, they can't give you the full semantic content of the spoken lines they're connected to, especially since with this system, choosing a paraphase often results in an exchange of several lines between the scene's participants. This practically guarantees that there will be content in the spoken lines which was unintended by the player, which is hugely annoying. Now they could make the paraphrase more specific, but (2) above works against that for they might need more options, and again, for some completely incomprehensible reason, paraphrases of more than seven words appear to be anathema for the developers, so the preferred solution is to ensure that the spoken lines don't say anything specific beyond what the paraphrase says, because that way, the player can't get annoyed for having been misled by the paraphrase. Basically, everything beyond the limit of the paraphrase's exact meaning needs to be meaningless filler.

"No more expression of atheism" is hugely annoying on its own in a story where attitudes towards gods and religion are actually an important aspect of the story, but in the end this is just the latest casualty in a war I'm afraid we dedicated roleplayers are doomed to lose. And before someone says: "BGx wasn't that specific" - no, it wasn't. But PST was, Arcanum was, and the Fallouts are to this day including New Vegas, which, incidentally, hasn't got a voiced protagonist.

Make no mistake: I love my voiced protagonists even as I hate paraphrasing, and Deux Ex:Human Revolution shows that you can show the full text of the spoken line in advance with no adverse effects, so Bioware's given rationale for paraphrasing is bogus. But if the choice is between more specific dialogue options and a voiced protagonist, I'll sacrifice the latter in a heartbeat.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 janvier 2014 - 09:14 .


#218
Nightdragon8

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Mirrman70 wrote...

I would like to take the time to remember that neither the warden nor Hawke nor any other character in Dragon Age belong to the player. The stories of these games are fairly plot driven within the sense that no matter what path you take you are still going from point A to point B to point C. you should be happy you are allowed some control over your characters personality at all.


I think people play RPGs for plenty of reasons, but for some of us, it's not to play as a pre-defined character we have little control over.

Mirrman70 wrote...

retconning lore will forever be a right to the writers of all universes everywhere. that being said, religion is a fundamental part of thedas and outside of morrigan there have been no characters that are openly skeptical of divine existences. I also believe that Morrigan meant that she did not believe in a god that held any true and constant influence.


Religious belief isn't fundamental, since The Warden could say he didn't believe in the Maker, and Aveline's remarks about the Maker also stand out. The same degree of freedom that was available in Origins would be preferable for some of us.


And Wyne, as well, she had her doubts as well.

I think its more of a Swear there ain't no Heaven, Pray there ain't no hell sort of thing.

#219
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EntropicAngel wrote...

"Under this positive/negative classification, some agnostics would qualify as negative atheists. The validity of this categorization is disputed, however, and a few prominent atheists such asRichard Dawkins avoid it."

--I see no reason to accept "implicit" and "explicit" atheism. It's a philosophical concept that directly contradicts actual word definitions. Atheism is disbelief, agnosticism is non-belief.

If "disputed" is the worst you can say about it then I suppose it's not a big deal. I'll just stay on the other side of that dispute. I don't think I need to indulge the idea that a dictionary definition should be sacrosanct somehow in matters like this.

#220
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Rotward wrote...

@Filament Either you believe in deities, or you don't. The gray only exists for agnostics, who shrug the question off entirely. Being assertive in one's convictions is a personaly trait.

Yes, I think the distinction between positive and negative atheism is largely down to personality and the way you convey basically the same message. Though many agnostics do practically fall in the negative atheist camp I think, it takes a bit more... dedication to be 'truly' agnostic if that is possible.

#221
Ieldra

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As an excursion I hope I will be forgiven, I will demonstrate why absolute certainty is an absurd concept.

I am communicating with you (the other forumites here). I am reasonably certain that you exist, and I usually don't give any consideration to the possibility you might not exist (well, on the internet I actually do once in a while, but that's beside the point).

Does that mean I can be absolutely certain? Well, even if I see you before my eyes in person I cannot. This seems ludicrous? Well, then consider the alternative: if I am absolutely certain that you exist, then I must consider it impossible under any imaginable conditions that might apply to the situation that you do not exist. Enter....the Matrix. I can't rule out the possibility that I am in a simulation and you are an illusion.

Of course, in everyday life that is 100% irrelevant. I don't need to consider it and if I do, any others are well justified in calling me a little soft in the head. But when we're talking about absolutes, things like this are not irrelevant any more. If I can't rule out even the most implausible but still possible alternative scenario, I can, if I'm honest, not be 100% certain.

I can, however, still claim that the assumption that you do, in fact, exist, is the only reasonable position to take, given the observational evidence that I can touch you, see you, speak with you etc.. and with not a shred of evidence to indicate you might be an illusion. The theoretical possibility that you do not exist exists, but it is meaningless, a mere thought-experiment, and to base my everyday actions on it would be delusional.

And that is what atheists claim about the position that (insert some god) exists. Which is a perfectly reasonable attitude to take towards the Maker on Thedas. 

(BTW: the claim of absolute certainty is the main reason why I don't have any intellectual respect for the Qun, even though it has some things to say about people that deserve consideration.)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 janvier 2014 - 09:46 .


#222
x-aizen-x

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how can anyone not believe in higher powers in thedas when every1 is fully aware of entire other dimensions plus they basically have proof the maker existed.

#223
dragonflight288

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In Exile wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...
If a person's response to the mystery is 'I don't know', that puts them pretty solidly in the agnostic camp. Not atheist. Agnosticism is a perfectly acceptable and logical rock to stand on in a world like Thedas, with its very deep and murky mythos. Fact is, there's no way to be 100% sure. My guess is that the devs will make sure that we're never sure. Keeps thread like this alive.


There is no 100% way for you to be sure I exist. Hell, you can't be 100% sure you aren't a brain in a vat. Descartes discretied the idea of certainty as a meaningful philosophical concept centuries ago. 


Here's another philosophy by Rene' Descartes.

"I think, therefore I am."

#224
CybAnt1

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x-aizen-x wrote...

how can anyone not believe in higher powers in thedas when every1 is fully aware of entire other dimensions plus they basically have proof the maker existed.


I don't think the Fade is "another dimension" quite like that. As many have emphasized to our characters, the Veil separating it and our world is thin and often tears. Plus, dreaming people breach that barrier nightly. 

As for the Maker, well.... 

1. The old gods seem to be pretty powerful. Not enough that they can't be killed manifesting as archdemons, but maybe (as discussions over Dumat often touch upon), they can't be killed permanently. And we really don't know yet what it means to put the soul of one in a human child, but this may, depending on gamestate, have happened. 

2. Somebody imprisoned them.

2a. Somebody more powerful than them would have had to have imprisoned them. Hmmmm? 

Note: no, I'm not arguing for the Maker, merely stating that logic dictates whatever the old gods are, there's something else in the gameiverse powerful enough to imprison them. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 24 janvier 2014 - 03:09 .


#225
In Exile

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AlanC9 wrote...
I don't see how belief in God enters into that example. Belief in magic, sure. 

Is whether the belief could be justified the right question? I think the burden of proof would be on the non-theists in Thedas, same as it once was here, and I also think that burden would be harder to meet in Thedas.


I'm not saying belief I'm God would follow. I'm trying to illustrate the opposite: that the existence of things like the Fade is totally independent from the existence of things like the Maker. Otherwise, I agree. 

Don't forget the outright miracles. We participate in one in DA:O, no? And the supernatural beings, which this world does not have -- at least, not in obvious and provable form.


Which one? The ashes have an in-game mechanical explanation suggested by Oghren: the lyrium in the mountain (which also explains the ghosts/ash wraiths, cf. what happens in the deep roads with lyrium ghosts).