40 réponses à ce sujet

[PracticalKat]

Now that my Bard / Arcane Archer is on her way, I'm planning something completely different: a dual-wielding melee wizard based on Webshaman's notes to his official Melee Mage.  I've put in much the same feats that he suggests, but it would be great to get some advice specific to SoU / HotU.  

I really like being able to melee low-level opponents instead of running in fear from any physical encounter.  Granted, it takes a few levels to get there, but being completely dependent on spells is just too much PT for me.   And Int is high enough that I can get decent levels in cross-class skills, to make things more interesting.

I've done some low-level testing of the strength MM in the OC, and he just blew through things so fast that I stopped at about Level 6 because it was getting boring.   Is there an equivalent to the NWN2 Rod of Preparation, to automate buffing?  That is the biggest downside of this build from a personal enjoyment angle.

Wizard(40), Elf
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 18 (36)
CHA: 8

Spell School: Illusion

Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)

01: Wizard(1): Toughness, {Scribe Scroll}
02: Wizard(2)
03: Wizard(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Wizard(4): INT+1, (INT=19)
05: Wizard(5): Extend Spell
06: Wizard(6): Empower Spell
07: Wizard(7)
08: Wizard(8): INT+1, (INT=20)
09: Wizard(9): Maximize Spell
10: Wizard(10): Quicken Spell
11: Wizard(11)
12: Wizard(12): INT+1, Two-Weapon Fighting, (INT=21)
13: Wizard(13)
14: Wizard(14)
15: Wizard(15): Ambidexterity, Spell Penetration
16: Wizard(16): INT+1, (INT=22)
17: Wizard(17)
18: Wizard(18): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
19: Wizard(19)
20: Wizard(20): INT+1, Greater Spell Penetration, (INT=23)
21: Wizard(21): Epic Spell Penetration
22: Wizard(22)
23: Wizard(23): Combat Casting
24: Wizard(24): INT+1, Great Intelligence I, (INT=25)
25: Wizard(25)
26: Wizard(26): Great Intelligence II, (INT=26)
27: Wizard(27): Great Intelligence III, (INT=27)
28: Wizard(28): INT+1, (INT=28)
29: Wizard(29): Great Intelligence IV, (INT=29)
30: Wizard(30): Great Intelligence V, (INT=30)
31: Wizard(31)
32: Wizard(32): INT+1, Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor, (INT=31)
33: Wizard(33): Epic Prowess
34: Wizard(34)
35: Wizard(35): Epic Spell: Epic Warding
36: Wizard(36): INT+1, Great Intelligence VI, (INT=33)
37: Wizard(37)
38: Wizard(38): Great Intelligence VII, (INT=34)
39: Wizard(39): Great Intelligence VIII, (INT=35)
40: Wizard(40): INT+1, (INT=36)

Hitpoints: 240
Skillpoints: 378
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 17/21/19
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +11, Mind Effects: +2

BAB: 20AB (max, naked): 24 (melee), 24 (ranged)AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 17/17

Spell Casting: Wizard(9)Alignment Changes: 0

Appraise 7(20), Concentration 43(44), Discipline 21(21), Heal 27(26), Hide 15(18), Listen 10(11), Lore 27(40), Move Silently 15(18), Search 21(36), Spellcraft 43(56), Tumble 21(24), remaining skillpoints 18

Modifié par brendonwp, 22 janvier 2014 - 07:20 .

[PracticalKat]

Edit: Sorted out build formatting!

[Empyre65]

WebShaman still drops by these forums occasionally. I just saw a post he left 12 dayas ago. If you wait a while, he will likely see the name of this topic and answer.

I do want to warn you about a null-magic zone in the Underdark in HotU. Valen should be of great help there.

[PracticalKat]

Empyre, I'll hold on for WS then. I've heard rumours of that perilous zone. At least none of the physical stats give negative modifiers, unlike a lot of mage builds that I've seen. I think she's up to the challenge

[PracticalKat]

Duplicate post removed

Modifié par brendonwp, 24 janvier 2014 - 08:52 .

[MagicalMaster]

brendonwp wrote...

Is there an equivalent to the NWN2 Rod of Preparation, to automate buffing?  That is the biggest downside of this build from a personal enjoyment angle.

Not unless the module implements it, no.

brendonwp wrote...

32: Wizard(32): INT+1, Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor, (INT=31)

I wouldn't get EMA.  Without full plate, high dex, or some other source of AC (like Monk Wisdom or something) your AC is going to be low enough that you'll be getting hit a lot with or without EMA.  Drop that and Epic Prowess for two more Great Intelligences.

brendonwp wrote...

Appraise 7(20), Concentration 43(44), Discipline 21(21), Heal 27(26), Hide 15(18), Listen 10(11), Lore 27(40), Move Silently 15(18), Search 21(36), Spellcraft 43(56), Tumble 21(24), remaining skillpoints 18

No point in going past 20 Tumble ranks, no benefit.

In general, I question the value of this build -- you're going to have a rough first few levels with no Weapon Finesse and low HP and you can't dual-wield for a while anyway.  It's basically a Strength build except inferior.  I suppose you have 2-3 more AC at very low level where wizard AC matters...but your offense will be terrible relatively speaking as a result.

[MrZork]

A few comments:

1) There is at least one NWN version of the Extended Rod of Fast Buffing. It should work in any module with tag-based scripting enabled. I am not sure if SoU or Sands of Fate (or even HotU) have it enabled by default, but I think Bioware's default x2_mod_def_load enables it and tag-based scripting would not be hard to enable in those modules. There is at least one tutorial on enabling tag-based scripting (google for others) and a recent thread in the scripting forums here may also be useful.

One approach to getting the rod into a module (once tag-based is enabled) is to import the erf into the chapters where you want it available and add it to a couple of the merchants. I would suggest the magic shop in Waterdeep for Chapter 1 and the magic shop in Lith My'athar (Gulhrys' store) for Chapter 2. Another approach is to drop the UTI file and NCS file into your override and then use the console to import the item.

(For some reason, the Rod's creator, loudent, didn't include support for metamagic casting. I added metamagic for my use and the override files for the version with metamagic enabled are available here.)

2) As per Webshaman's suggestion in his MM thread, you should upgrade the Tenser's Transformation spell when possible. I suggest Moskwa's PnP Tenser's Transformation. The Bioware TT is flawed to the point that nearly no one uses it. Moskwa's version does what the spell is supposed to: Provides a short-term buff a that allows a mage to hit something during melee.

3) MM, the OP seems to make it clear that his intent is to make a mage who is able to "melee low-level opponents". Any pure wizard is going to lack the AC to hold up in melee against tough bosses in Sands of Fate (and maybe even the Bioware modules), but a mage can do what is asked for against many low-level opponents. IMO, the +5 dodge AC from EMA is a pretty good bump against those types. Of course, by level 32, this toon will be well into Sands of Fate, and it's possible that the items there will allow him to cap dodge AC without EMA. I recall some very high-AC boots and so on by the second chapter of the module, but I don't recall if a mage would run into the dodge cap there.

Modifié par MrZork, 24 janvier 2014 - 01:35 .

[PracticalKat]

MM - It's a fun build, not for power play. I'll use spells against the bosses, but like to melee too for variety. Unlike the OC, there are no "free" level-ups, so I agree that will be tough until Level 3 and Weapon Finesse. No worse than a "pure" wizard build though.

Webshaman did a few calculations on the build page I linked, comparing the build to a pure fighter at Level 20. The results were good, but I suspect this will fall off over the next 20 levels as fighter types add Str or Dex, and this character is stuck with 16 Dex. Using items I can boost this to 26 Dex but then hit the cap. I worry more about AB than AC at high levels, but I've never played a mage beyond level 6 so advice is appreciated.

MrZ, thanks for the advice on buffing and TT - this makes the toon playable! Will shout if I get stuck on the technical bits. UMD and monk boots will probably also help in melee.

[MrZork]

You will be fine in SoU, even without Weapon Finesse for the first couple of levels. Really, in my view, the melee mage is best off not engaging in melee for the first few levels anyway since the HP are low enough that a couple bad rolls during a fight can be the end. That's what your crossbow is for and, particularly with the elven senses to help ensure sneakers don't get the drop on you, you can pick opponents off at a distance. The AC bumps at level 1 are nice, but it's once the melee mage gets the ability-boosting spells and some damage resistance that he comes into his own, IMO.

Even later on (and this applies as well with more traditional and STR-based melee toons) many people underestimate the value of softening up low-level opponents (and even the tougher ones if you can hit them) with ranged attacks before they close enough to engage in melee. Getting in one or two shots (and more at higher levels) while that opponent is running to you can be a nice edge. Just get the hot key timing down on the weapon swap and entering stealth mode to avoid AoOs. :-)

[MagicalMaster]

MrZork wrote...

Any pure wizard is going to lack the AC to hold up in melee against tough bosses in Sands of Fate (and maybe even the Bioware modules), but a mage can do what is asked for against many low-level opponents.

But against enemies that weak the 5 AC won't matter anyway, that's the thing.  Those enemies will die fast enough, hit softly enough, have low enough AB, and/or won't get through the other defensive spells.  It's like taking a feat which makes you take 50% less damage from attacks which deal 5 damage or less -- the enemies who fall into the category which the feat would affect don't matter at all.

brendonwp wrote...

MM - It's a fun build, not for power play. I'll use spells against the bosses, but like to melee too for variety. Unlike the OC, there are no "free" level-ups, so I agree that will be tough until Level 3 and Weapon Finesse. No worse than a "pure" wizard build though.

Why do you find it more fun than the strength version, if I might ask?

And non-meleeing mage could invest more points in Constitution, for example for 20% more HP at low levels, since it doesn't care about str or dex.

MrZork wrote...

Even later on (and this applies as well with more traditional and STR-based melee toons) many people underestimate the value of softening up low-level opponents (and even the tougher ones if you can hit them) with ranged attacks before they close enough to engage in melee. Getting in one or two shots (and more at higher levels) while that opponent is running to you can be a nice edge. Just get the hot key timing down on the weapon swap and entering stealth mode to avoid AoOs. :-)

Quite the reverse -- most people OVERESTIMATE the benefit of this at higher levels.  Switching to a bow that does 1/3 of the damage per hit and hits 20% as often is immaterial.  Let's say you manage to get two full rounds of attacks off -- this means you'll deal 13%ish of a combat round in melee.  In other words, firing at range for 12 seconds saves you less than a second of melee combat.

[Westan Willows]

Why Illusion?

[MagicalMaster]

Because except for Mass Haste the school of Enchantment is usually pretty irrelevant, and in many environments Mass Haste is often unneeded. And you want a school specialization for the extra spell per level.

[Westan Willows]

I didn't make myself clear. Why that school? Wouldn't a school with more buffs be better? It's not like he can wear armor.

[MagicalMaster]

I don't think you understand how wizard school specialization works.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_school

[Westan Willows]

I'll just stick with Sorc.

[MrZork]

[Sorry for the home-made quotes. The forums seem to be functioning marginally at the moment.]

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...
Any pure wizard is going to lack the AC to hold up in melee against tough bosses in Sands of Fate (and maybe even the Bioware modules), but a mage can do what is asked for against many low-level opponents.

But against enemies that weak the 5 AC won't matter anyway, that's the thing. Those enemies will die fast enough, hit softly enough, have low enough AB, and/or won't get through the other defensive spells. It's like taking a feat which makes you take 50% less damage from attacks which deal 5 damage or less -- the enemies who fall into the category which the feat would affect don't matter at all.

Without some statistics on how the ABs of low-level opponents are distributed in a given module, I don't see how one can be sure one way or the other. My subjective experience is that many such opponents are non-humanoids with levels in non-full-AB monster classes (like giant, animal, beast, etc.) but enough strength to do damage that adds up significantly on a mage with 14 CON. Or humanoid bandits and such with 3/4 AB classes (like rogue) who are doing damage with sneaks which is at the same threat level. Those guys may not hit all the time, even a robe-wearing mage. But, the goal is to take on those mobs without them burning through one's Premonitions and wasting heal pots and not having to rest every few minutes like some winded chump. Obviously, if they are only hitting on 20s anyway (which is not my default assumption for a mage), then +5 AC isn't advancing the goal. My contention is that +5 AC will take those shots that were hitting on 14 or 15 and relegate them to the 19 or 20 category. But, I don't have the stats on what those mobs are like or what gear a wizard would have in Sands of Fate at level 32 (which is about the right context for this question, I think, since that's when the OP was thinking to take EMA).

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...
Even later on (and this applies as well with more traditional and STR-based melee toons) many people underestimate the value of softening up low-level opponents (and even the tougher ones if you can hit them) with ranged attacks before they close enough to engage in melee. Getting in one or two shots (and more at higher levels) while that opponent is running to you can be a nice edge. Just get the hot key timing down on the weapon swap and entering stealth mode to avoid AoOs. :-)

Quite the reverse -- most people OVERESTIMATE the benefit of this at higher levels. Switching to a bow that does 1/3 of the damage per hit and hits 20% as often is immaterial. Let's say you manage to get two full rounds of attacks off -- this means you'll deal 13%ish of a combat round in melee. In other words, firing at range for 12 seconds saves you less than a second of melee combat.

I am not sure what benefit is being overestimated here and compared to what. Or who most people are, for that matter. To clarify a bit, I am referring to the tactic of staying at range (outside of mob perception usually), pulling mobs singly, and getting that round or two of ranged attacks before swapping to melee weapons. As opposed to running up to a pile of mobs and engaging in melee as the first action. The benefits of the ranged-pull approach are several, though its value is as much an issue of play-style preference as anything else. If the player doesn't have the patience to pull mobs, then he won't like it even if it increases survivability.

I am also unsure where "hits 20% as often" against low-level opponents comes from? In the comment above, where "later on" simply means some point after the toon hits level 3 (where he gets the weapon finesse the OP had mentioned), it is of limited value to make level 40 assumptions. Additionally, does the 20% figure take into account that that first arrow or two is typically against a flat-footed opponent without the benefit of DEX or dodge AC? Does it account for the increased likelihood that a mob's rage and other short-term buffs may wear off sooner, helping the PC? Also, such ranged attacks can disrupt the spells or spell-like abilities of many opponents (shamen, etc.) who tend to start a fight with some minor buffing, but who have very low concentration skill (not to mention warning the PC that the opponent has at least some casting ability). And, more generally, free damage against an opponent (damage you can deal before he has any chance to hit you) will be an advantage, even if it is small. If the mob gets one fewer attack against the PC because the mob entered melee with fewer HP, that helps.

Now, are ranged-pulling tactics worth enough that a feat-starved toon should potentially cripple melee effectiveness to take WF:Bow or PBS or whatever to make ranged attacks marginally more effective? Of course not. I don't know what others are saying, but I wouldn't argue that ranged feats are anything approaching a necessity for most melee toons. At the same time, it should be noted that most SP modules will easily accommodate toons that take such feats, even when they aren't optimal from a power-building perspective. The player should feel free to do it if it makes the toon more fun for him to play.

[MrZork]

Westan, the approach usually taken with wizard spell school specialization is to analyze the prohibited school, not the specialization school. The toon really gets very minimal benefits with regard to spells from the specialized school, so the major benefit to specialization is the extra spell slot per level (which can be used for an spells the wizard can cast) and the major cost is the loss of access to spells of the prohibited school. SInce the benefits are generic and the costs are specific, one makes a school decision based on the costs.

So, the reason to specialize in illusion is because the prohibited school, enchantment, has spells that one can often do without in many modules, particularly those where many opponents have immunity to mind-affecting spells or paralysis. Illusion is likely the most common specialization choice, though some choose necromancy in modules where divination spells like True Seeing and Premonition won't be useful.

[Westan Willows]

@ MrZork You should post that at the link MM gave me. Sorry MM but I already read that item. MrZork told me what I did not know. That is what the reason was based on. I was looking at what you got in spells not what you lost.

[Westan Willows]

Btw. ShaDoOow gave me that link some time ago. It is in my fav folder.

[MagicalMaster]

And I had already explained how Enchantment (the barred school for Illusion) had spells you could easily afford to give up several posts ago: http://social.biowar...810877#17819227

Will answer MrZork tomorrow.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 25 janvier 2014 - 06:08 .

[PracticalKat]

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...

[quote]brendonwp wrote...

MM - It's a fun build, not for power play. I'll use spells against the bosses, but like to melee too for variety. Unlike the OC, there are no "free" level-ups, so I agree that will be tough until Level 3 and Weapon Finesse. No worse than a "pure" wizard build though.[/quote]
Why do you find it more fun than the strength version, if I might ask?

And non-meleeing mage could invest more points in Constitution, for example for 20% more HP at low levels, since it doesn't care about str or dex.
[/quote]

I enjoy dex toons over strength ones, and the image of two weapons tracing a fiery trail of destruction is so much more appealing than whaling away with a single flaming greatsword  //shrugs//  

[quote]MagicalMaster wrote...

[quote]MrZork wrote...

Even later on (and this applies as well with more traditional and STR-based melee toons) many people underestimate the value of softening up low-level opponents (and even the tougher ones if you can hit them) with ranged attacks before they close enough to engage in melee. Getting in one or two shots (and more at higher levels) while that opponent is running to you can be a nice edge. Just get the hot key timing down on the weapon swap and entering stealth mode to avoid AoOs. :-)[/quote]
Quite the reverse -- most people OVERESTIMATE the benefit of this at higher levels.  Switching to a bow that does 1/3 of the damage per hit and hits 20% as often is immaterial.  Let's say you manage to get two full rounds of attacks off -- this means you'll deal 13%ish of a combat round in melee.  In other words, firing at range for 12 seconds saves you less than a second of melee combat.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I can't comment in general, but I've just replayed the fight with Brother Toras with an unoptimised melee bard 9 ftr 2, and Daelan.  I had managed to get BT down to injured.  While BT was distracted with Daelan, I nailed him with a couple of acid arrows from a mighty bow, after casting from a buff removing scroll.  BT went down surprising quickly, after killing me a number of times over previously no matter my other tactics!  

Modifié par brendonwp, 25 janvier 2014 - 03:40 .

[Westan Willows]

@MagicalMaster. what I did not know(or understand) is that you were looking at the cost in spells not the gain in spells. If I look at the cost of taking Illusion the cost is zero because I don't use those spells anyway.

[MagicalMaster]

Westan Willows wrote...

@MagicalMaster. what I did not know(or understand) is that you were looking at the cost in spells not the gain in spells. If I look at the cost of taking Illusion the cost is zero because I don't use those spells anyway.

Are you saying you thought the following was an explanation of why we weren't suggesting Enchantment as the focus?

"Because except for Mass Haste the school of Enchantment is usually pretty irrelevant, and in many environments Mass Haste is often unneeded."

I made that statement assuming you knew how opposing schools worked and how choosing Illusion locked out Enchantment...and thus explained why Enchantment was pointless.

And then when you seemed confused I provided the link explaining about how wizard school specialization worked.

brendonwp wrote...

I enjoy dex toons over strength ones, and the image of two weapons tracing a fiery trail of destruction is so much more appealing than whaling away with a single flaming greatsword

I suppose, just seems odd since you can't even dual-wield properly until level 15-18 with that build.

brendonwp wrote...

I can't comment in general, but I've just replayed the fight with Brother Toras with an unoptimised melee bard 9 ftr 2, and Daelan. I had managed to get BT down to injured. While BT was distracted with Daelan, I nailed him with a couple of acid arrows from a mighty bow, after casting from a buff removing scroll. BT went down surprising quickly, after killing me a number of times over previously no matter my other tactics!

We're not talking about archery as a general tactic, we're talking about the idea of being a strength character and switching to a ranged weapon WHILE an enemy is closing in on you rather than charging ahead to meet him. In this case, Daelan was ALREADY in melee -- meaning your situation isn't what we're talking about at all.

The equivalent would be something like telling Daelan to stay put while you shot enemies and then only had Daelan attack once they reached you.

MrZork wrote...

My contention is that +5 AC will take those shots that were hitting on 14 or 15 and relegate them to the 19 or 20 category.

Here's why I can safely say they won't: because the mage doesn't have any other significant AC. A full plate wearer will have an extra 4-5 AC from the full plate (possibly more, I'm being generous with the mage's Dexterity bonus) alone with an extra 8 AC from a +5 tower shield (and in something like Sands of Fate the shields go to much higher than +5). In addition, the full plate guy will have Armor Skin for another 2 AC. That's an extra 14-15 AC compared to this wizard (pre-EMA). So if we assume those humanoid mobs or rogue types are hitting our full plate wearer on a 15 (unless you're assuming they're only hitting on 20s or something?) then they're hitting our mage on a 1 or better. Even if the mage gets 5 extra AC they're still getting hit on a 5 or better which is an 80% chance -- which means the mage is getting wailed on either way and is going to be getting beat up badly.

Similar situation when comparing a mage to a high dex character.

MrZork wrote...

To clarify a bit, I am referring to the tactic of staying at range (outside of mob perception usually), pulling mobs singly, and getting that round or two of ranged attacks before swapping to melee weapons. As opposed to running up to a pile of mobs and engaging in melee as the first action.

It sounded like you were saying that if you saw a single mob in the distance, switching to a ranged weapon and shooting it as it approached you would do MASSIVE AWESOME DAMAGE compared to just meeting it in melee.

Hell, you specifically said

"the value of softening up low-level opponents (and even the tougher ones if you can hit them) with ranged attacks before they close enough to engage in melee. Getting in one or two shots (and more at higher levels) while that opponent is running to you can be a nice edge"

That's talking about getting in extra damage, not about pulling mobs away so you don't have to engage a huge group by charging in. Pulling mobs away is a good tactic. Expecting to do gazillions of damage at range as a strength character is not.

MrZork wrote...

I am also unsure where "hits 20% as often" against low-level opponents comes from? In the comment above, where "later on" simply means some point after the toon hits level 3 (where he gets the weapon finesse the OP had mentioned), it is of limited value to make level 40 assumptions.

I was simply referring to something like level 10+, certainly not just level 40. Ranged combat definitely makes far more sense before you get heavy feat investments in the melee weapon and before strength and dexterity diverge to a massive extent via leveling and magic items.

MrZork wrote...

And, more generally, free damage against an opponent (damage you can deal before he has any chance to hit you) will be an advantage, even if it is small. If the mob gets one fewer attack against the PC because the mob entered melee with fewer HP, that helps.

On the flip side, spending time plinking away at a buffing caster rather than beating his face in can be a MASSIVE problem in many fights. Sometimes there are priority targets which need to be put down fast.

I can safely say I have never been in a situation post level 10ish where I felt switching to a ranged weapon to "soften up" an approaching enemy would ever matter. Pulling, yes. But the actual damage dealt? No.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 26 janvier 2014 - 08:06 .

[Westan Willows]

@MagicalMaster No. I did NOT understand how opposing school worked. Nor did I understand how you decided which school to use.

[MrZork]

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

My contention is that +5 AC will take those shots that were hitting on 14 or 15 and relegate them to the 19 or 20 category.

Here's why I can safely say they won't: because the mage doesn't have any other significant AC. A full plate wearer will have an extra 4-5 AC from the full plate (possibly more, I'm being generous with the mage's Dexterity bonus) alone with an extra 8 AC from a +5 tower shield (and in something like Sands of Fate the shields go to much higher than +5). In addition, the full plate guy will have Armor Skin for another 2 AC. That's an extra 14-15 AC compared to this wizard (pre-EMA). So if we assume those humanoid mobs or rogue types are hitting our full plate wearer on a 15 (unless you're assuming they're only hitting on 20s or something?) [...]

LOL, yes, quite often that's about right. Not always, of course, but these are mobs in SP modules! These modules are not typically built with power builders in mind and, particularly in the epics where the OP is looking at EMA, their mobs aren't going to really touch a decently-built and well equipped sword+board fighter one-on-one unless they get somewhat lucky. And, frankly, while I wouldn't consider the average mob to be a big threat (maybe the mob commanders would be a bit more) even to a robe-wearer, I think that's fairly typical of mobs in SP modules. They primarily present a danger in numbers. For certain, it is not unusual for mobs in SoF (and I am pretty sure HotU is no different). Once again, most SP modules have plenty of mob fights where, insofar as straight combat is concerned (not accounting for traps, combat spell casting, etc.) a well-equipped fighter isn't going to get hit much.

BTW, I just checked an old saved game from Sands of Fate 2, when my character (my first epic NWN wizard) was a level 32 elven mage (29 wizard, 3 rogue) at the start of the module with 16 DEX. Now, of course, she had some tumble AC going and had gotten the nice DEX items in SoF 1 so her DEX was capped at 28, but she was not wearing AC boots leaving the first chapter (and there are some like +6 or maybe even +8 AC boots for sale in chapter 2) and her AC was 50 with EMA and a permahasted item. The mobs in one of the early encounters (greater sand beetles in the Choices in the Sand area) were attacking with AB 37. By your estimate of a well equipped fighter's AC, those mobs would only be hitting him on 20s. And, frankly, that's no surprise to me for a SP module.

(Also, I haven't played SoF in about 3 years, since it was my first non-Bioware module. But, I just checked a couple other random encounters in the sewer areas beneath Aqualis, where I recalled fighting lots of trolls. According to the Toolset, those mob trolls have AB 23! Now, of course, though there are several of those encounters, they are among the easier ones in the module. The Greater Otyughs, which are somewhat tougher overall, have AB around 34. So, basically, even a mage is at a point where EMA makes a difference.)

So, again for a couple of encounters and the mobs in the encounter would be hitting a nicely equipped fighter only on 19 or 20. They were hitting my mage on 13s with EMA, which would soon change to 19 or 20 as she made it a priority to upgrade to +6 or +8 boots pretty quickly.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

To clarify a bit, I am referring to the tactic of staying at range (outside of mob perception usually), pulling mobs singly, and getting that round or two of ranged attacks before swapping to melee weapons. As opposed to running up to a pile of mobs and engaging in melee as the first action.

It sounded like you were saying that if you saw a single mob in the distance, switching to a ranged weapon and shooting it as it approached you would do MASSIVE AWESOME DAMAGE compared to just meeting it in melee.

Hell, you specifically said

"the value of softening up low-level opponents (and even the tougher ones if you can hit them) with ranged attacks before they close enough to engage in melee. Getting in one or two shots (and more at higher levels) while that opponent is running to you can be a nice edge"

Really?!? You are joking, right? It is a total stretch to interpret my note about getting an edge with some extra ranged damage on a pulled mob as if I had said the PC "would do MASSIVE AWESOME DAMAGE". Not even close. I am sorry, but you are too smart to need that sort of internet strawman hyperbole.

MagicalMaster wrote...
That's talking about getting in extra damage, not about pulling mobs away so you don't have to engage a huge group by charging in. Pulling mobs away is a good tactic. Expecting to do gazillions of damage at range as a strength character is not.

Except that I never said anything vaguely resembling "gazillions of damage". Yes, there's some extra damage the PC gets in while a mob is running up while being pulled. It's just an edge, as I said it was. In my view, starting melee with one's opponent alone and 10 or 20 HP down (more or less depending on what level we are talking about and what gear is being used) before he has had a chance to touch you is an edge. You may well disagree about the tactic or about whether it's an edge you don't care about. But, don't pretend that I claimed it was the key to some thumping victory.

BTW, I am curious if your melee types bother with magical arrows? I mean, if it's only an extra d6 per hit and they are hardly hitting anyway, there's no reason to pay more than 1 gp for a stack of mundane ammo, right?

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

I am also unsure where "hits 20% as often" against low-level opponents comes from? In the comment above, where "later on" simply means some point after the toon hits level 3 (where he gets the weapon finesse the OP had mentioned), it is of limited value to make level 40 assumptions.

I was simply referring to something like level 10+, certainly not just level 40. Ranged combat definitely makes far more sense before you get heavy feat investments in the melee weapon and before strength and dexterity diverge to a massive extent via leveling and magic items.

I certainly agree that the advantage of the chosen specialized form of attack increases as the levels go up. I would be surprised to see 20% at level 10 or so. At least, I am pretty sure that most of my STR toons are into the epics before their ranged attacks are only hitting 20% as often as their melee attacks. You threw out a hard number (and then used it for a further calculation) so I was curious how you got it. I am an engineer myself and I generally enjoy the analytical perspective that you add to these discussions.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

And, more generally, free damage against an opponent (damage you can deal before he has any chance to hit you) will be an advantage, even if it is small. If the mob gets one fewer attack against the PC because the mob entered melee with fewer HP, that helps.

On the flip side, spending time plinking away at a buffing caster rather than beating his face in can be a MASSIVE problem in many fights. Sometimes there are priority targets which need to be put down fast.

Totally agree. Particularly if the PC can get the caster alone, rushing in (preferably from cover, invisible, hasted or all three) is almost always a better approach than letting him cast Invis / Greater Sanctuary / Time Stop, then buff, call summons, and start spamming Bigbys, Wails, or missile storms.

MagicalMaster wrote...
I can safely say I have never been in a situation post level 10ish where I felt switching to a ranged weapon to "soften up" an approaching enemy would ever matter. Pulling, yes. But the actual damage dealt? No.

That's your call. And, once again, let me be clear that I am making no claim that damage is so substantial that battles turn on it; it's typically an issue of how many HP a toon will have lost at the end of taking down a pile of mobs or how much of his DR remains. I haven't run numbers on this, but if my toon gets a couple hits in on a mob before he gets to me, that's a bit less time the mob survives while we are in melee. Even if it only shaves a flurry off the lifetime of every few mobs, so much the better. Meanwhile, since I am pulling anyway, not swapping to a melee weapon earlier than I have to helps ensure that my toon doesn't run too far toward the target mob and alert his buddies that I am there.

Modifié par MrZork, 26 janvier 2014 - 02:10 .