66 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfhowwl]

AlanC9 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...
It's there for a reason.

BioWare should have removed it to give Shepard an end forever.

I'm still not getting the why here. Why should Bio have to kill Shepard in all endings?

Wouldn't that have prevented the IT from ever existing?

[Excella Gionne]

"This hurts you."

[NeonFlux117]

wolfhowwl wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...
It's there for a reason.

BioWare should have removed it to give Shepard an end forever.

I'm still not getting the why here. Why should Bio have to kill Shepard in all endings?

Wouldn't that have prevented the IT from ever existing?

Now we're talking.

This would best be addressed by Hudson and Walters and the creative team of ME3.


And yet...

Nothing.

Why is that.

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 23 janvier 2014 - 03:11 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Wouldn't that have prevented the IT from ever existing?

Now we're talking.

This would best be addressed by Hudson and Walters and the creative team of ME3.


And yet...

Nothing.

Why is that.

Perhaps because remaining quiet is one of the oldest PR strategies around?

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 23 janvier 2014 - 03:16 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

CrutchCricket wrote...

The point was, why bother putting the relay controls (and indeed the holokid if we must have it) on this side, when you could put it on the dark relay (Citadel equivalent in dark space) and have it be out of reach of potential organic meddling. This wouldn't exclude using the Citadel trap.

It's a plothole but one from all the way back in ME1. The answer is of course, because then there wouldn't be a story. Same as how if Saren had been just a bit more subtle at Eden Prime and visited the beacon without killing everyone with geth, Shepard and co might never have been the wiser and unavoidable Reaper galaxy-wide surprise buttsecks might've happened that much earlier.

Granted, victory through enemy stupidity is far from good writing (particularly when the enemy's nature is described as nigh-infallible) but in this case I really can't see how they could've had the Reapers be what they are and still avoid derping them so as to give us a chance. Where we draw the line between acceptable allowances and "wtf were they thinking" is debatable but the line is there.

Spot-on. However, the thing is, there are so many of such cases in ME3 where contrived narrative gets in the way of appreciating the story that I can't simply take another one of those numerous BS as acceptable allowance.

I can spot plotholes from literally every freaking setting and plot in ME3. It's ****ing hilarious how the reapers just roll into our galaxy by FTL in 6 months after trying to use the citadel as portal for thousands of years(starting from Sovereign brainwasing Rachnii) The premise for plots are illogical. The beginning makes no sense. Characters act stupid, enemies are insanely dumb. And those dumb enemies are undefeatable without deus-ex-machina pulled out of someone's rear. It can't get much worse.

[NeonFlux117]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Wouldn't that have prevented the IT from ever existing?

Now we're talking.

This would best be addressed by Hudson and Walters and the creative team of ME3.


And yet...

Nothing.

Why is that.

Perhaps because remaining quiet is one of the oldest PR strategies around?

PR for what tho.

Shepard's jouney is over...

[dreamgazer]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Spot-on. However, the thing is, there are so many of such cases in ME3 where contrived narrative gets in the way of appreciating the story that I can't simply take another one of those numerous BS as acceptable allowance.

(laughs)

There isn't a single game in the trilogy that can't be described like this.  Par for the course with space opera.

[AlanC9]

Right. The question is why people are bothered by stuff in ME3 that didn't bother them in the other games.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 janvier 2014 - 03:54 .

[Seboist]

wolfhowwl wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...
It's there for a reason.

BioWare should have removed it to give Shepard an end forever.

I'm still not getting the why here. Why should Bio have to kill Shepard in all endings?

Wouldn't that have prevented the IT from ever existing?

Only happy ending with space waifu/manfu could have prevented IT for sure.

[spirosz]

Seboist wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...
It's there for a reason.

BioWare should have removed it to give Shepard an end forever.

I'm still not getting the why here. Why should Bio have to kill Shepard in all endings?

Wouldn't that have prevented the IT from ever existing?

Only happy ending with space waifu/manfu could have prevented IT for sure.

Persona 4. 

[IntoTheDarkness]

dreamgazer wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Spot-on. However, the thing is, there are so many of such cases in ME3 where contrived narrative gets in the way of appreciating the story that I can't simply take another one of those numerous BS as acceptable allowance.

(laughs)

There isn't a single game in the trilogy that can't be described like this.  Par for the course with space opera.

The Withcer Series and 999 - Zero Escape come to mind, though the thrid game for both trilogies are not yet published. Since TW2 didn't sidetrack and lost focus as ME2 did with its main narrative, my expectations are optimistic.

Does Mass Effect 3 even deserve a title of trilogy? There are quite a lot of retcons because writers couldn't come up with ways to keep consistancy in plots, despite which the story of ME3 is still incoherent mess even if it's viewed as a stand alone game. The plot holes stand out more(or incur fan rage) because Bioware claimed ME3 is like the only game in the gaming industry that employed 12 full time writers and hence they are very confident of the narrative strength of ME3.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 23 janvier 2014 - 04:06 .

[CrutchCricket]

dreamgazer wrote...

(laughs)

There isn't a single game in the trilogy that can't be described like this.  Par for the course with space opera.

AlanC9 wrote...
Right. The question is why people are bothered by stuff in ME3 that didn't bother them in the other games.

Well, you either look at the series as a whole and just decide to stop accepting crap after a certain point. Or you look at the other games and find what elements if any mitigated their crap that are not present in ME3. Or you decide that ME3's crap is fundamentally different and worse than the crap that came before.

Those are pretty much your options. Some rough examples (not necessarily my opinions):

Type 1: "I accepted Reapers as mecha-Cthulu- and that mecha-Cthulu Soylent Green is people but I draw the line at the holokid".
Type 2: "Yes the ending of ME2 was just as lacking in choices and different cinematics apart from color-coding, but the badass tone, music and vibe totally made up for it!"
Type 3: "Circular logic and Skynet cliches are genuinely worse than "you cannot comprehend" cliches."

[dreamgazer]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Does Mass Effect 3 even deserve a title of trilogy?

Sure, it does. No more or less than Return of the Jedi does, for example. 

There are quite a lot of retcons because writers couldn't come up with ways to keep consistancy in plots, despite which the story of ME3 is still incoherent mess even if it's viewed as a stand alone game.

There are inconsistencies, contrivances, and plot holes within the very first Mass Effect game itself.

(shrug)

Modifié par dreamgazer, 23 janvier 2014 - 04:11 .

[Zinoviy]

AlanC9 wrote...


Right. The question is why people are bothered by stuff in ME3 that didn't bother them in the other games.

This is a huge question for me. I'm also wondering where the line of (apparently) acceptable suspension of disbelief is.

This is a game set in the future about a bunch of stuff that doesn't exist. When you start to go looking for holes and unrealistic things...well...yeah.

What did people expect playing a futuristic, sci-fi game?

[AlanC9]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
(laughs)

There isn't a single game in the trilogy that can't be described like this.  Par for the course with space opera.

The Withcer Series and 999 - Zero Escape come to mind, though the thrid game for both trilogies are not yet published. Since TW2 didn't sidetrack and lost focus as ME2 did with its main narrative, my expectations are optimistic.

I'm pretty sure "the trilogy" above  refers specifically to the ME series, not to all game trilogies that ever have been or ever will be released.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

And yet in Mass Effect you need context- I'm not going to get into this, as you know it comes back around to the "Reapaz" and indoctrination and all the inconvenient truths that many don't like or CHOOSE to ignore.

You mean "inconvenient truths" like this: -

NeonFlux117 wrote...

So I guess lets just forget about ME1 and stuff. 

Methinks the Citadel Control panel opens a portal to darkspace.... But I guess not. 

Damn BioWare. Forget lore much. 

- ?

This kid is confused. He doesn't know whether he's an IT'er or a Hold-the-Line'r -- LOL!

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 23 janvier 2014 - 04:28 .

[NeonFlux117]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

And yet in Mass Effect you need context- I'm not going to get into this, as you know it comes back around to the "Reapaz" and indoctrination and all the inconvenient truths that many don't like or CHOOSE to ignore.

You mean "inconvenient truths" like this: -

NeonFlux117 wrote...

So I guess lets just forget about ME1 and stuff. 

Methinks the Citadel Control panel opens a portal to darkspace.... But I guess not. 

Damn BioWare. Forget lore much. 

- ?

This kid is confused. He doesn't know whether he's an IT'er or a Hold-the-Line'r -- LOL!

What's a Hold the Line'r??? Is that a negative comment about the amazing Kirahe.. Blasphemy!!!

[ImaginaryMatter]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Perhaps because remaining quiet is one of the oldest PR strategies around?

PR for what tho.

Shepard's jouney is over...

When I say PR what do you think I mean?

[dreamgazer]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Perhaps because remaining quiet is one of the oldest PR strategies around?

PR for what tho.

Shepard's jouney is over...

When I say PR what do you think I mean?

... Protestant Reformation?

[NeonFlux117]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Perhaps because remaining quiet is one of the oldest PR strategies around?

PR for what tho.

Shepard's jouney is over...

When I say PR what do you think I mean?

Public Relations.

[Rusty Sandusky]

dreamgazer wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Perhaps because remaining quiet is one of the oldest PR strategies around?

PR for what tho.

Shepard's jouney is over...

When I say PR what do you think I mean?

... Protestant Reformation?

Particle Rifle?

[IntoTheDarkness]

AlanC9 wrote...


I'm pretty sure "the trilogy" above  refers specifically to the ME series, not to all game trilogies that ever have been or ever will be released.

You are right. I misread.

I still think ME3 is the worst of the three. ME2 digressed a lot, but it still didn't contradict itself dozen times like ME3 did.

[MrFob]

So how about this: The citadel can only connect to the relay network when it's own relay function is activated (which wouldn't be surprising, given how important it is to the reapers to keep the relays as impenetrable as possible). This function probably draws a lot of power, so when it's active, it can easily get detected by the organics who inhabit the citadel, so it has to remain turned off until needed.
This also means the reapers can't just come through from dark space whenever they want, the citadel needs to be activated on site (usually by the sentinel reaper (sovereign) through the keepers, see vigil conversation). It's just like any relay, you need both partners to make the connection work. The reapers in dark space don't have access to this function because they are out of range to send a signal.
Why don't the reapers use e.g. a QEC to turn the relay function of the Citadel on and off (after all, they can control the collectors and Grayson)? Well, good question but the fact is, we know very little about QECs and such. What if they can have a glitch? I mean, even our computers today can be affected by random events like in the case of single event upsets, etc. (I know, completely different tech but it's feasible) and qbits are not exactly easy (practically impossible today) to maintain. This system has to remain secure for 50000 years, you wouldn't want it to activate accidentally at the wrong time.

Is this head cannon? Depends on your interpretation of the word but I usually have no problem with using my imagination to fill in some blanks as long as the overall story is interesting and coherent enough to keep me going. It's only when the overarching story breaks apart that I get caught up in little details.

[Excella Gionne]

"If you're hearing this....then there is still hope. Hope that you can avoid the same mistake we made. We fought the reapers, but we failed to stop them. We did everything we could. We built the Crucible, but it didn't work. We fought as a united galaxy, but it wasn't enough. I only hope the information in this capsule is enough to help you before it's too late. My name is Dr. Liara T'Soni. Herein lies the recounting of our war with the Reapers."

It appears we all failed, so there's little to say.... :-|

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Wow this completely changes my outlook on the Mass Effect games. I'll never be able to enjoy them again! Thank you so much for your deep analysis and ability to pick every single little detail apart, BSN! Awesome.