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[The Elder King]

@iakus: it might be that they've not made a final decision about the thresholds yet, if they should be tied to the difficulty level or to indipendant sliders. But in the moment of Darrah's tweet the health regen was tied to the difficulty level.

[Iakus]

hhh89 wrote...

@iakus: it might be that they've not made a final decision about the thresholds yet, if they should be tied to the difficulty level or to indipendant sliders. But in the moment of Darrah's tweet the health regen was tied to the difficulty level.

It's possible, yeah.  But so far the only details we know about the difficulty levels is that they are using sliders to make the adjustments more customizable.  To me it would be simplest to just make health regen one of those sliders.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

BG1 was sandbox.

And by far BioWare's best game.  I'd like to see them return to that.

/NOSTALGIA GOGGLES

I recently returned to BG1 and played ABOUT 10 minutes. It was just ....... ugh.

I still play BG regularly.  I see very little wrong with it.

A perfect game would have a less well-defined PC background (like NWN), and BG's UI was a bit rudimentary (again, NWN is BioWare's best work in this area), but the open-world aspect of BG was such that you could travel pretty much anywhere for any reason, even if there was nothing in particular to see there.  This is where DAO falls down - you can't go anywhere until you have plot-related cause.  This restriction is something BioWare first implemented in BG2, and they've only used the BG model again once since (in ME1).

[deuce985]

I have concerns with this too. I can certainly see what the devs are trying to accomplish with it and I totally agree on adding more tactical elements to the game. That being said, I do not want this feature to be a detriment on the game itself. It seems Bioware wants you to feel like exploring matters and with it, the risk vs. reward discovery element to it similar to Dark Souls. I absolutely loved that in Dark Souls. I'm not sure it fits a Dragon Age game though.

They also said you can't quick travel where you want. Which makes me concerned that I'm going to do a lot of backtracking in order to replenish potions at the keep in order to heal that threshold of health. This would be a huge mistake, IMO. It will feel repetitive quickly. I'm hoping they have some small camps sitting around where you have limited uses to refill potions or completely heal your limited health thresholds. Maybe put them on timers. Dark Souls used bonfires spread around where you could replenish flasks. I'm hoping it's similar to this and you're not limited to just a keep way out in the sticks. I'm not sure adding more tactical elements with limited pots/health thresholds is going to get the reaction they want. It might actually hurt the gameplay.

The details on it is still very limited so we'll have to see. Maybe we'll get lucky and get a response from Bioware. This is one of my biggest concerns with the game currently from the info we've received.

Modifié par deuce985, 24 janvier 2014 - 08:16 .

[deuce985]

Also, I just want to mention that I don't like it when RPGs force my characters into specific roles. As others have mentioned in here, it's possible a mage can just heal it out of combat. I really do not like this design if it means I have to spec a mage into healing. All mages should have healing by default if this is the case. It will force me into spirit healer specs and I do not want that...

[The Baconer]

deuce985 wrote...

Also, I just want to mention that I don't like it when RPGs force my characters into specific roles. As others have mentioned in here, it's possible a mage can just heal it out of combat. I really do not like this design if it means I have to spec a mage into healing. All mages should have healing by default if this is the case. It will force me into spirit healer specs and I do not want that...

Well, in DA:O and DA2 Spirit Healers were a great convenience but were hardly mandatory. It does appear that we will be needing at least one mage with the basic healing spell, though.

[Seival]

Vexed Forest wrote...

So I was watching this video and it said there was no passive health regen and limited potions 

This is purely my opinion, but I don't like this. Any game I've played that has included both of these has been annoying. It kind of forces you to min/max your build instead of playing what you think is fun. It also somewhat makes you play the way the devs want and not necessarily the way you want. I get that they are pushing more strategic elements but there are other ways to do this. And realism? This type of realism in video games annoyes me. You can break down a keep door with a sword (here) so.......I'm getting mixed messages.

Maybe it could be a toggleable option? The regen, not the potions. I think limited potions is fine by itself.

Anyway, thats just my opinion. I would like to know yours.

And on a sidenote, I know my destiny in DA:I is to be a Qunari mage. I hope I can accomplish this.

(I know its been discussed before, but I wanted to put my own opinion out there)

Do not worry. If this will be balanced well, the combat will be both entertaining and challenging (on high difficulty levels).

[AutumnWitch]

I also don't like this as I feel it will add a lot "busy work" to the game and suck a lot of the fun out of combat. I don't understand why they are doing this? To make combat harder? Then just make it harder to kill the enemy depending on difficulty level.

There are two or three things that they have announced they are doing in DAI that seems like such a drag to me. To me personally they don't enhance the game but makes it more tedious and drawn out. It ruins the "rhythm" of the game IMO.

[durasteel]

I would like to see a "first aid" ability for warriors and rogues, to take some of the healing onus away from the mage characters. More flexibility is definitely better.

I agree that taking away or limiting health (or mana) regen just seems like it will be annoying, and might just be a waste of play-time. I have no shame in admitting that I routinely cheat my way around BS like that, especially after my first completion of the game.

[superdeathdealer14]

I'm not sure about this whole "No health regen" thing, but I am sure that it'll probably end up having me ****ing out a lot more.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AutumnWitch wrote...

I also don't like this as I feel it will add a lot "busy work" to the game and suck a lot of the fun out of combat. I don't understand why they are doing this? To make combat harder? Then just make it harder to kill the enemy depending on difficulty level.

There are two or three things that they have announced they are doing in DAI that seems like such a drag to me. To me personally they don't enhance the game but makes it more tedious and drawn out. It ruins the "rhythm" of the game IMO.

I had a very similar reaction when they told us that health would regenerate in DAO.  I didn't understand why they would do that.

They said they wanted to focus entirely on the tactical nature of combat, without the need for the player to consider any strategic concerns.  They chose to make the game tactical, at the expense of making it strategic.

I would rather it be both.  Non-regenerating health should help with that.

[LinksOcarina]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

I also don't like this as I feel it will add a lot "busy work" to the game and suck a lot of the fun out of combat. I don't understand why they are doing this? To make combat harder? Then just make it harder to kill the enemy depending on difficulty level.

There are two or three things that they have announced they are doing in DAI that seems like such a drag to me. To me personally they don't enhance the game but makes it more tedious and drawn out. It ruins the "rhythm" of the game IMO.

I had a very similar reaction when they told us that health would regenerate in DAO.  I didn't understand why they would do that.

They said they wanted to focus entirely on the tactical nature of combat, without the need for the player to consider any strategic concerns.  They chose to make the game tactical, at the expense of making it strategic.

I would rather it be both.  Non-regenerating health should help with that.

I honestly doubt it. If anything it will make the game overly strategic, which turns it into a chess match based on numbers and movements, with rigid structures on what works and what doesn't.

I hate that personally, at least with a tactical approach you can plan and use deviations to typical methods to win. That is what the focus should be on. Regenerating health really had no factor into this, outside of being a mechanic to make the games go faster. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I honestly doubt it. If anything it will make the game overly strategic, which turns it into a chess match based on numbers and movements, with rigid structures on what works and what doesn't.

I hate that personally, at least with a tactical approach you can plan and use deviations to typical methods to win. That is what the focus should be on. Regenerating health really had no factor into this, outside of being a mechanic to make the games go faster.

Regenerating health meant that the designers knew that you'd start each encounter with full resources.  As such, they could design each encounter around that assumption.

Imagine how that changes when the designers can't assume that.  If they know that you're likely not to have full resources (but you could have anywhere from most to very few), that changes the nature of encounter design quite a bit.  No longer can encounters consistently offer the same sorts of challenges - they'd instead need to allow alternative solutions, or be avoidable, else the player might become frustrated by the impossibility of fighting when his characters are already badly injured.

Regenerating health and mana meant that the player never needed to consider the downside of his tactics, as long as they ultimately won the fight.  They create perverse incentives to take damage as a tactical ploy (tanking), or to send characters into harm's way to draw enemies.

I made similar complaints when KotOR was released.  I didn't like that fallen companions simply got up at the end of fights, because it encouraged sacrificial tactics.

[Martyr1777]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

I also don't like this as I feel it will add a lot "busy work" to the game and suck a lot of the fun out of combat. I don't understand why they are doing this? To make combat harder? Then just make it harder to kill the enemy depending on difficulty level.

There are two or three things that they have announced they are doing in DAI that seems like such a drag to me. To me personally they don't enhance the game but makes it more tedious and drawn out. It ruins the "rhythm" of the game IMO.

I had a very similar reaction when they told us that health would regenerate in DAO.  I didn't understand why they would do that.

They said they wanted to focus entirely on the tactical nature of combat, without the need for the player to consider any strategic concerns.  They chose to make the game tactical, at the expense of making it strategic.

I would rather it be both.  Non-regenerating health should help with that.

I honestly doubt it. If anything it will make the game overly strategic, which turns it into a chess match based on numbers and movements, with rigid structures on what works and what doesn't.

I hate that personally, at least with a tactical approach you can plan and use deviations to typical methods to win. That is what the focus should be on. Regenerating health really had no factor into this, outside of being a mechanic to make the games go faster. 

I don't think it will make it overly strategic. After thinking about this a while I think it will make things more interesting and I don't mean just combat. For instance in the demo they find those boats and burn them. Now if you are decked out with healing and mana potions maybe you won't have those sort of things since they are limiting inventory as well.

Plus this whole aspect is likely how they plan to make things like saving both the keep and village possible but challenging. Sure yuo can do it, but if your party isn't built right you will run out of time before you can save both.

I would be kind of curious to see what it would be like with -slow- mana regen in combination with no health regen, but don't think they will balance it that way. But I think it would add more of this whole 'hard choices' deal to the game outside of conversations. What gear are you going to leave the keep with and how will it impact your game. Maybe it will turn out bad, but at least right now it sounds very interesting because I can't remember that last time I had to give a single thought to my inventory load in an RPG.

[Realmzmaster]

I have to agree with Sylvius the Mad, regenerating health and mana basically stomp all over the strategic considerations. It reduced DAO and DA2 to mostly tactical games. It allows for very questionable tactics that normally would not even be considered unless as a last measure
.
There is no consequence to sacrificing a companion since at the end of the battle the companion simply gets up as if nothing happened. The game can simply have the party blow all of it stamina and mana in one battle because it will automatically replenish. No long term strategic considerations need to be taken into account. That in my humble opinion makes the combat system boring.

As long as one companion is left standing the whole party miraculous recovers from Death's door. The only consequence is if there is a full party wipe.
The strategic decision whether to press on, camp and recover or try to make it back to civilization never happens.

In some crpgs where to set up camp was a strategic and tactical decision. Regenerating health and mana makes that a non issue. The only time in DAO or DA2 you need to go back to civilization is dispose of excess inventory.

The focus is on each individual battle and not the entire campaign. The focus is on survival of each battle not survival for the entire campaign. No need to be that concerned about resource management.

The enemy AI is suppose to be smarter, but that only works if there are different tactics employed at different difficulty levels.
If the tactics used on easy are the same as used on nightmare the combat system is back to enemies with bloated hit point totals and insanely high resistances to make the higher levels difficult.

I welcome the return non-regeneratin health and mana, friendly fire etc. I would like to see a hardcore mode like in Fallout:New Vegas.

[CybAnt1]

When companions fall in battle, but you prevail at the end, and they get up again, they will have injuries.

That said, DA2 nerfed the severity of injuries, and gave us a cornucopia of available injury potions as well as health potions. It was easily taken care of. I would even accept those who might say way too easily.

[The Baconer]

Realmzmaster wrote...

In some crpgs where to set up camp was a strategic and tactical decision.

Meh, I don't really buy it, at least considering the ones I've played. Even in Baldur's Gate 1+2, Arcanum, Morrowind etc. it was just a process of save-scumming and resting until healed. At least outside of something more significant or permanent like companion death.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In BG1, there were safe areas in every outdoor zone where it was safe to rest. Usually the spot where you entered the area.

That you fund away around those strategic decisions by reloading doesn't mean those strategic decisions weren't there.

[The Baconer]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In BG1, there were safe areas in every outdoor zone where it was safe to rest. Usually the spot where you entered the area.

That you fund away around those strategic decisions by reloading doesn't mean those strategic decisions weren't there.

While the mechanics did in fact exist, did it really come into play for me or my friends? Not really. At most it ended up being a minor inconvenience because either way we were going to end up fully rested. The fact that regenerating HP outside of combat is now the norm seems to imply that's how most players dealt with it.

Unless they make it so mana no longer regenerates naturally, or disable healing magic outside of combat (which would be very questionable), it will never be more than a time sink. To me it would make more sense to overhaul the injury system.

By the way, is posting with the standard form broken for anyone else?

[CybAnt1]

Yes, when I try to use the standard form, all I see is a black screen.

Glad this issue is not idiosyncratic. Or perhaps I was simply going nuts.

BTW, I've never used the forum tech support forum (by that I mean the tech support for the forum itself, as opposed to for various Bioware games), maybe somebody needs to report the issue, or point me to it so I can report it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Yes, when I try to use the standard form, all I see is a black screen.

Me too. I'm glad it's happening to others. I was worried my corporate firewall was starting to block my access to BSN.

[Il Divo]

Yeah I agree. Baldurs Gate is no more sandbox than Dragon Age is, which is to say not at all. It is a number of areas you can go into, fight pre-determined monsters in, and hope for the best.

Agreed. Of all Bioware's efforts, it's BG1 which needs to be burned. It was good for its time I suppose, but lacking in many of the modern elements which I've come to love about Bioware games. Plus, the dialogue is atrocious.

[seraphymon]

I disagree with Sylvius and Realmzmaster.

The way they make it sound.. Sounds exactly like a DA2 battle problem, only long term.

DAO was tactical and strategic.. Hp/Mp regen at a slow rate out of combat, you could risk and continue or wait and replenish, how would the designers know what the player would do? Some fights, even as they put it, was spiking in difficulty. DA2, yes they could design every fight around a full resource party. The plain truth was, you could only make DA2 combat tactical to a certain point, which wasn't much in my opinion aside from certain boss fights and encounters in DLC.

In DA2, we had the problem with the wave system. One of those problems is that fact that the player, could blow through all their abilities on the first wave and be left with just sitting around auto attacking on the next wave, being able to do little to nothing waiting on long cooldowns. Mages suffered this to a lesser degree, but with this mechanic I can see DAI running into this problem only long term. It might not be a wave system, but you can see where you might be in the same spot when you don't know what the encounters consist of.. where they are and don't know how to plan without trial and error. At least with full health and mana at the very least, you have a chance. Really I see a little benefits from this, and a lot of frustration.

[Navasha]

Well, personally, I like the idea of no (or limited) health regen. That adds another level of tactics and strategy. DA2 was the absolute worst, in that you could use all your potions in every combat if you wanted and more would just spawn out of thin air on the corpses you loot.

It makes it feel like you are actually on an expedition that you had to prepare for, rather than just endlessly grinding knowing that all the healing and mana you could ever want will just drop off every corpse you loot.

[Martyr1777]

@seraphymon

I never really so much terribly tactical in either, if anything DA2 was more so because of the waves. Like some boss fights in DAO are pretty good because they are the ones that spawn waves are certain HP levels. The one I remember most is the carta boss, you had to specifically stop from popping all your tricks out early on to win those fights in good shape, thats the tactics of it knowing when to use and not use powers. That's why i have all the tactics turned off (except the modes I always want) because the AI always blows abilities when I don't want them so they are on CD when I do.

But the vast majority of fights in both are just boring time wasting. Other then boss fights the only time I actually have to think in DAO is when facing a number of overwhelm enemies. In DA2 its when they have the ninja assassins. I have to plan for them and have certainly abilities ready. Everything else is just kill all asap so I don't have to waste more time than I already am.

No health regen is a step in a more interesting direction for me. However as others have said it will be pointless with a heal spell and no change to mana regen. Some I'm not really expecting anything terribly new in the end but if they go the right direction with it I can see it being more fun.

That being said, it can also very easily become something annoying as hell.