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[Han Yolo]

I just finished the book and now I want nothing more than to have my barefooted bloodcovered battleharened and tattooed Rabbit Inquisitor crush an Orlesian ball. That would be so bloody brill. I never thought it possible but I want that cursed game even more now.

 

What I find really grand about the novel is that I somehow ended up both hating and loving most of the characters at the same time by the end. I love shades of grey.

[A.Kazama]

As a whole I thought the story was pretty well written, At first I didn't like Gaspards ambition, but through the Eluvians and the truce he grew on me and by the epilogue i was already beginning to hate Celene, well done Patrick Weekes.

 

On another note I prefer Asunder mainly because its central to the story of Inquisition, but other than that Great Read! Only took me a day to finish.

[azarhal]

As a whole I thought the story was pretty well written, At first I didn't like Gaspards ambition, but through the Eluvians and the truce he grew on me and by the epilogue i was already beginning to hate Celene, well done Patrick Weekes.

 

On another note I prefer Asunder mainly because its central to the story of Inquisition, but other than that Great Read! Only took me a day to finish.

 

Asunder is not central to the story of Inquisition any more (or less) than Masked Empire. Both the Mage/Templar war and the Civil War are background setup of the game. The Exalted Plain area of the game is all about the Civil War for example.

[A.Kazama]

Asunder is not central to the story of Inquisition any more (or less) than Masked Empire. Both the Mage/Templar war and the Civil War are background setup of the game. The Exalted Plain area of the game is all about the Civil War for example.

Yeah I guess so, I just feel like the ending of asunder was kinda the prelude to Inquisition, if you know what I mean.

 

The ending to Mask empire was... very open to interpretation and had a lot to answer for.

[Heimdall]

Yeah I guess so, I just feel like the ending of asunder was kinda the prelude to Inquisition, if you know what I mean.
 
The ending to Mask empire was... very open to interpretation and had a lot to answer for.

Well, it was still quite a lot of setup. With Gaspard, Celene, and Briala, all that.

[Heimdall]

I didn't like Gaspard's ambition, and despite his honor, his personality generally just rubbed me the wrong way. (That, and Gaspard still thinks invading Ferelden is a good idea for some ungodly reason)

The book gave me plenty to dislike about Celene, but of the two, she's still the one genuinely trying to improve the lot of the lower class (Elves in particular), so I can't say I feel terribly conflicted about which I feel inclined to choose.

[llandwynwyn]

Just finished it and let me just cry over his death. Damn it, he was one of my fav, not that I hated anyone in this, except for Celene.

Seriously, she's such a shitty person. I don't mind ruthless characters, but when they lie to themselves -which Celene did from the get go- it really pisses me off. Couldn't stand her at all. Gaspard was a bastard and her inferior in the game/at life, but at least he was honest with himself. Celene paints herself as a good person, and she is, when the sun is out and there's no dark clounds in the sky...DAI will have a hard choice for me.

Also, this book should've been called Elf Genocide.

[efd731]

^^^with "they were totally asking for it" as the foreword

[The Baconer]

Seriously, she's such a shitty person. I don't mind ruthless characters, but when they lie to themselves -which Celene did from the get go- it really pisses me off. Couldn't stand her at all. Gaspard was a bastard and her inferior in the game/at life, but at least he was honest with himself. Celene paints herself as a good person, and she is, when the sun is out and there's no dark clounds in the sky...DAI will have a hard choice for me.

 

Whether they like it or not, they will both come to serve the Maker.
 

[TheBlackAdder13]

I'm not getting all this love for Felassan:

 

Spoiler

I get that he's charming and down to earth and picks the humorous dialogue option 90% of the time but he actually seems really sketchy. I liked him until the encounter with Imshael at the Dalish camp. He's clearly on familiar terms with Imshael, one of the forbidden ones, who probably taught the ancient Tevinters how to use blood magic in the first place, and actively knew Imshael's plan to trick Michel into letting him out of the Dalish trap, allowing him to inflict mass damage on the land. Then, during the Gaspard/Michel duel in the Eluvians, he  offers to do something for Imshael that implies more destruction than the mage/templar and Orlesian civil wars simply so he can help Briala encourage Celene and Gaspard to continue their war of attrition (although this seems to spring out of a genuine concern for the elves -- the methods he's using are clearly going to be disastrous and get even more people killed). I'm wondering if he's behind, or at least very closely connected to, the tears in the veil -- that seems like it would satisfy Imshael. Anyway, I'm pretty sure people are blindly overlooking his dubious deals with demons simply because he's charming and likable.

 

Also, crackpot theory, but does anyone else think Felassan might be Solas after: 

Spoiler

possibly being possessed in an attempt to restore him after he was made tranquil (he was killed in the Fade, meaning he's probably now tranquil in Thedas). Felassan seemed to be a Solminari and Solas is supposed to knowledgeable of Sominari related Fade stuff, if not a Solminari himself.

 

[TheBlackAdder13]

Also, this book soured me on Leliana too. She was clearly too willing to acquiesce to the Divine's request that Celene crush the Halamshiral elves. If she truly didn't want to see the elves harmed I'd like to think that she would have used her influence with the Divine to put up more of a fight or at least manipulate Celene into somehow sparing the elves. It just seemed like Leliana was willing to throw them under the bus like everyone else simply for her job/relationship to the Divine. I guess I'm particularly prickly about this because my city elf warden romanced her. She's damn lucky he mysteriously disappeared or else she'd have some 'splanin to do. *grumble grumble* 

[bairdduvessa]

I'm not getting all this love for Felassan:

 

Spoiler

I get that he's charming and down to earth and picks the humorous dialogue option 90% of the time but he actually seems really sketchy. I liked him until the encounter with Imshael at the Dalish camp. He's clearly on familiar terms with Imshael, one of the forbidden ones, who probably taught the ancient Tevinters how to use blood magic in the first place, and actively knew Imshael's plan to trick Michel into letting him out of the Dalish trap, allowing him to inflict mass damage on the land. Then, during the Gaspard/Michel duel in the Eluvians, he  offers to do something for Imshael that implies more destruction than the mage/templar and Orlesian civil wars simply so he can help Briala encourage Celene and Gaspard to continue their war of attrition (although this seems to spring out of a genuine concern for the elves -- the methods he's using are clearly going to be disastrous and get even more people killed). I'm wondering if he's behind, or at least very closely connected to, the tears in the veil -- that seems like it would satisfy Imshael. Anyway, I'm pretty sure people are blindly overlooking his dubious deals with demons simply because he's charming and likable.

 

Also, crackpot theory, but does anyone else think Felassan might be Solas after: 

Spoiler

possibly being possessed in an attempt to restore him after he was made tranquil (he was killed in the Fade, meaning he's probably now tranquil in Thedas). Felassan seemed to be a Solminari and Solas is supposed to knowledgeable of Sominari related Fade stuff, if not a Solminari himself.

 

i kept picturing him has solace until the end.  since then i've had fun with him.

 

i've loved the character because he isn't on the up and up and doesn't seem to care he isn't, yes he is likable, but he is also a schemer.  quite machiavellian in a way

[Heimdall]

Also, this book soured me on Leliana too. She was clearly too willing to acquiesce to the Divine's request that Celene crush the Halamshiral elves. If she truly didn't want to see the elves harmed I'd like to think that she would have used her influence with the Divine to put up more of a fight or at least manipulate Celene into somehow sparing the elves. It just seemed like Leliana was willing to throw them under the bus like everyone else simply for her job/relationship to the Divine. I guess I'm particularly prickly about this because my city elf warden romanced her. She's damn lucky he mysteriously disappeared or else she'd have some 'splanin to do. *grumble grumble*

They can only handle so many crises at once. The Divine is focused on handling the issue of the mages and Templars as previously agreed to with Celene. She never told Celene to slaughter the elves at Halamshiral, she just told her it needed to be handled. She understood the reality of the public opinion towards elves, especially as it relates to Celene. If Celene lost power, do you think Gaspard would be so lenient towards elves? The point is, its a far more complicated question than choosing to kill or not to kill a group of elves. And at the end of the day, rebellions must be put down. That's the nature of ruler ship.

[FireAndBlood]

Why did the Divine want Celene to deal with the elves?

[llandwynwyn]

I'm not getting all this love for Felassan:
 

Spoiler

I get that he's charming and down to earth and picks the humorous dialogue option 90% of the time but he actually seems really sketchy. I liked him until the encounter with Imshael at the Dalish camp. He's clearly on familiar terms with Imshael, one of the forbidden ones, who probably taught the ancient Tevinters how to use blood magic in the first place, and actively knew Imshael's plan to trick Michel into letting him out of the Dalish trap, allowing him to inflict mass damage on the land. Then, during the Gaspard/Michel duel in the Eluvians, he  offers to do something for Imshael that implies more destruction than the mage/templar and Orlesian civil wars simply so he can help Briala encourage Celene and Gaspard to continue their war of attrition (although this seems to spring out of a genuine concern for the elves -- the methods he's using are clearly going to be disastrous and get even more people killed). I'm wondering if he's behind, or at least very closely connected to, the tears in the veil -- that seems like it would satisfy Imshael. Anyway, I'm pretty sure people are blindly overlooking his dubious deals with demons simply because he's charming and likable.

Everyone is sketchy in DAME. Everyone except poor Lemet.

I was actually surprised Felassan didn't betray Briala, I was expecting him to do so the entire book.

[Heimdall]

Why did the Divine want Celene to deal with the elves?

Because she didn't want the empire collapsing into civil war and making an already unstable situation worse.

[TheBlackAdder13]

They can only handle so many crises at once. The Divine is focused on handling the issue of the mages and Templars as previously agreed to with Celene. She never told Celene to slaughter the elves at Halamshiral, she just told her it needed to be handled. She understood the reality of the public opinion towards elves, especially as it relates to Celene. If Celene lost power, do you think Gaspard would be so lenient towards elves? The point is, its a far more complicated question than choosing to kill or not to kill a group of elves. And at the end of the day, rebellions must be put down. That's the nature of ruler ship.

 

And by telling Celene to "deal with it," she pretty much sealed their fate. Both Justinia and Leliana knew that the only way Celene would deal with it was by massacring them. Leliana makes this perfectly clear in their conversation by saying that neither her nor the Divine want the elves harmed and they want it dealt with but they won't go on record as backing a more peaceful solution to the elves, solidifying Celene's resolve even more. Had they truly cared for the well being of the elves, they would have stayed out of it and not pushed Celene further on the course to slaughter. 

[JakeLeTDK]

Just finished it and let me just cry over his death. Damn it, he was one of my fav, not that I hated anyone in this, except for Celene.

Seriously, she's such a shitty person. I don't mind ruthless characters, but when they lie to themselves -which Celene did from the get go- it really pisses me off. Couldn't stand her at all. Gaspard was a bastard and her inferior in the game/at life, but at least he was honest with himself. Celene paints herself as a good person, and she is, when the sun is out and there's no dark clounds in the sky...DAI will have a hard choice for me.

Also, this book should've been called Elf Genocide.

 

I think Celene is, deep down, a good person. However one can't be the ruler, especially a ruler of a nation as chaotic, and dangerous as Olais, with goodness alone. In the end, she knows what she has to do, and willing to do it, no matter the cost. She does care for the lower class, and she loves culture, science, and art far more than war. Olais and its people are better under her rule than anybody else. And to maintain that, she has to play and win the Game. And to win the Game, she has to be that lying, deceiving snake. Also her "authority figure" behavior can be pretty annoying but hey, she's been Empress for twenty years lol

 

She's complicated, and that make her character so fascinated, to me at least lol She might not be the perfect leader that we read about and heard of in fairy tales, but she's pretty much the best Olais can hope for. I'm pretty sure I won't have any problem picking side in DA:I lol

[CENIC]

So... is Felassan dead? Tranquil? Was he ever an elf to begin with?

[bairdduvessa]

So... is Felassan dead? Tranquil? Was he ever an elf to begin with?

maybe

[CENIC]

maybe

...that's a very Felassan-style answer.

[Wissenschaft]

 Celene isn't anymore ruthless than a real world leader has to be. Lets not forget these city elves were in open rebellion and any sovereign government is well within its rights to put down a rebellion. Celene doesn't have the option of negating with the rebels since shes under intense pressures from the nobles to prove her toughness. Celene may be called an empress but in true she is just a feudal lord thats has to wrestle power with the other powerful noble families of her country. In other words, Celene's rule is far from an absolute monarchy. Orlais is very much a feudal state. It reminds me of the state of France before Louis XIV consolidated power in the monarchy. In order words, a political situation in which the king had to fear powerful nobles turning to open rebellion to his rule.

 

Celene felt pressures to show her military resolved and so she sent an army to crush a rebellion. She did not go on a rampage, killing every elf she could get her hands on, fugitively. Nor did she declare more restrictive measures on elves as punishment for this rebellion. She dealt with the one city in rebellion and she even made sure that her soldiers did not loot the city or do any excessive harm.

 

I don't understand how people can like Gaspard since he comes off as an arrogant jerk to me. Hes a hawk who sees war as the hammer in which every problem in Orlais can be solved. With a pounding. He thinks the only glory is in conquest and doesn't seem to appreciate the arts, learning, or even care about the lives of those of lesser status. Geaspard would be little more than a tyrant.

[bairdduvessa]

 Celene isn't anymore ruthless than a real world leader has to be. Lets not forget these city elves were in open rebellion and any sovereign government is well within its rights to put down a rebellion. Celene doesn't have the option of negating with the rebels since shes under intense pressures from the nobles to prove her toughness. Celene may be called an empress but in true she is just a feudal lord thats has to wrestle power with the other powerful noble families of her country. In other words, Celene's rule is far from an absolute monarchy. Orlais is very much a feudal state. It reminds me of the state of France before Louis XIV consolidated power in the monarchy. In order words, a political situation in which the king had to fear powerful nobles turning to open rebellion to his rule.

 

Celene felt pressures to show her military resolved and so she sent an army to crush a rebellion. She did not go on a rampage, killing every elf she could get her hands on, fugitively. Nor did she declare more restrictive measures on elves as punishment for this rebellion. She dealt with the one city in rebellion and she even made sure that her soldiers did not loot the city or do any excessive harm.

 

I don't understand how people can like Gaspard since he comes off as an arrogant jerk to me. Hes a hawk who sees war as the hammer in which every problem in Orlais can be solved. With a pounding. He thinks the only glory is in conquest and doesn't seem to appreciate the arts, learning, or even care about the lives of those of lesser status. Geaspard would be little more than a tyrant.

you are right in that she had to do something to show she was taking things seriously, but

Spoiler

killing thousands

may be going a little too far.  she could have easily just

Spoiler

found a few to a hundred individuals and did a kangaroo court type thing, executed them and moved on.  instead she went drastic in order to save face. in that act she became just as big of a tyrant as Gaspard could be

[Wissenschaft]

@bairdduvessa

 

Spoiler

Your assuming that the city elves would even surrender. The book seemed to make it clear that they were pushed too far and were never going to surrender. And don't act like these elves were innocent harmless victims.  You can't have a Kangaroo court if the the elves have barricaded their section of the city and are slowing progressing throughout the rest of city robbing and killing every human they can get their hands on. I don't feel bad for those elves, they had become little more than bandits. No matter terrible their oppression was they don't have the right to kill innocent humans.

 

If the Elves are unwilling to surrender and instead wish to fight to death, what choice does Celene have? She can't just try a few elves if the rest refuse to surrender. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think that its stated that every elf in the city was killed. It is after all a city that has more elves than humans so it seems very likely theres still a majority of elves left in the city. Celene didn't slaughter the whole population of the city.

[Aimi]

In other words, Celene's rule is far from an absolute monarchy. Orlais is very much a feudal state. It reminds me of the state of France before Louis XIV consolidated power in the monarchy.

"Absolute monarchy" is an increasingly deprecated term. So is "feudal". And the distinction is notoriously difficult to apply to Louis XIV's France, because despite all the faffing about with Versailles and the notorious intendants, the actual mechanisms of local power during the Sun King's reign didn't change that much. Landed aristocrats still generalled the armies and ran the bureaucracy. Intendants were rarely deployed and more often than not ended up enforcing an extant status quo based on the policy of local notables. The fact that Louis did not have to fight against a fronde in his later years isn't necessarily down to a fundamental shift in the organization of the Bourbon monarchy; his ancestor Henri IV didn't have to fight against one either, after all. Many modern scholars consider Louisine France to be a very poor example of what the historians of the 1950s (say) would have called an absolute monarchy.

Nowadays, the paradigm in early-modern European studies has shifted away from "absolutism" and power relations to something called the "fiscal-military state", growing out of the historiography opposed to Michael Roberts' famous "Military Revolution". It's...a fairly complex thing to get into, though.

Anyway. If I'm not mistaken, what you mean to say is that Celene's Orlais is a monarchy in which the monarch's exercise of power is mediated by negotiation with key landed-aristocrat and clerical interests, and that that negotiation is both coercive and consensus-based, and that although in terms of pure power-relations and in terms of ideology Celene possesses some form of supremacy, that supremacy is not unlimited and indeed is often subject to circumscription by the notables that participate in the Game.

Which is a mouthful and may not even help people understand the situation all that much better, but y'know, historians are the enemies of shorthand and generalization.