1058 réponses à ce sujet

[TheBlackAdder13]

 

Spoiler

 

Lets not forget these city elves were in open rebellion and any sovereign government is well within its rights to put down a rebellion.

 

And don't act like these elves were innocent harmless victims.  You can't have a Kangaroo court if the the elves have barricade their section of city and are slowing progressing through out the rest of city robbing and killing every human they can get their hands on. I don't feel bad for these elves, they had become little more than bandits. No matter terrible their oppression was they don't have the right to kill innocent humans.

 

Spoiler

The elves didn't attack human civilians. It was clear from their attacks on the market that they were only targeting guards -- who regularly beat and murdered them without cause -- even though most of those civilians also probably harassed and abused the elves and were unquestionably benefiting from their systematic oppression. In fact the "rebellion" was kind of unrealistic in that sense since historically those types of revolutions usually turn into us vs. them and all sorts of civilians get killed by the proletariat, not just the authorities. What else do you suggest the elves do to fight for their lives? Other than attacking guards, which considering their treatment, is hardly unjustifiable, they remain innocent harmless victims throughout the rebellion. Why shouldn't the elves defend themselves from constant, daily oppression? If we're going to deal with modern concepts of what a sovereign state has the rights to do then you have to acknowledge a modern concept of a basic respect for human rights that said sovereign state has to respect -- otherwise the people are well within their rights to defend themselves and rebel.  And then I'm sure there were many elves who were not involved in the uprising at all but got killed anyway as a result of Celene's purge.

 

 

I don't understand how people can like Gaspard since he comes off as an arrogant jerk to me. Hes a hawk who sees war as the hammer in which every problem in Orlais can be solved. With a pounding. He thinks the only glory is in conquest and doesn't seem to appreciate the arts, learning, or even care about the lives of those of lesser status. Geaspard would be little more than a tyrant.

After reading the book, I think many people, myself included, are more inclined to like Gaspard on a personal level. Throughout the novel you learn how treacherous and Machiavellian Celene is whereas you learn that Gaspard has a firmly ingrained code of honor based on his actions throughout the book.

 

I agree with your assessment of him which is why I think the dynamic is so interesting. Purely from a policy/governance level, Celene is the better choice, hands down. Gaspard, conversely, is a reactionary, nativist war mongerer. But Celene obtains power through treachery and manipulation whereas Gaspard, despite his war mongering, does so straightforwardly with a clear cut code of conduct. Let's face it, Gaspard's disdain for "the Game" is something to be proud of. Despite his disdain for the "dog lords" he totally should have been born Fereldan. Not that I'm saying I would agree with Gaspard's wars even if I thought he would implement better policies as emperor, after all, as Tywin Lannister said, tell me how it's more honorable than to kill thousands on the battlefield than a few hundred at dinner.  
 

[ladyofpayne]

I don't understand - what city Gaspard rules? And his family also located there or they are separated?

[Wissenschaft]

I wonder sometimes if I've read the same book as everyone else.

Spoiler

The elves were attacking merchants. They were not just killing guards. We even read from the perspective of one of the rebel elves what they were doing. They were acting like bandits, attacking caravans, killing everyone and stealing what they could. And Celene was reading reports on the way to the city that the elves were moving into the poor human's area and harassing them as well. So yes, this rebellion was very realistic since it did turn into a us vs them bloodbath.

 

As for Gaspard, he claims that it would be dishonorable to poison Celene but attempting to make her have a "hunting accident" is somehow better? Bull, Gaspard isn't honorable at all. He pays lip service to his knightly code then tries to assassinate Celene with the old Orlesian tradition of a hunting accident. Only after failing at that assassination attempt does he try out the "more honorable" military ambush. Yes, Gaspard does end up saving Celene's life but this is only after giving his word to cooperate while within the Eluvians. It seems to me that Gaspard's honor is more concerned about appearances than actually chivalry. If he went against his word then his soldiers, who view him as the embodiment of the chevaliers, would know his order's honor means nothing. Hes not willing to do that. But he is willing to assassinate Celene as long as it is out of sight of everyone.

 

If anything, Celene's problem is that shes not at all Machiavellian. She foolishly avoids a political marriage that would help stabilize her rule because she wants to stay true to Briala. Even Briala knows this is foolish. Despite the long period of peace Celene has brought her nation, the people don't appropriate it. As Felassan said, people don't thank you for the absence of a negative. Celene has forgotten to remind her people to fear her wrath while being generous to them. Thats what the famous phrase, "its better to be feared than love" means. Its not a call to be cruel but rather a reminder than in order to be a benevolent ruler the people must also fear displeasing you or else they will be ungrateful. Celene, in effect, has been too nice a ruler and it has bite her in the butt.

 

On another note, I enjoyed the schism shown between city elves and the Dalish. How the Dalish discriminate against city elves as much as the humans do. The Dalish are never going to be willing to help the "flat ears" because they are not real elves in their eyes. This makes me despise the Dalish. Their arrogance really is their folly.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

 

On another note, I enjoyed the schism shown between city elves and the Dalish. How the Dalish discriminate against city elves as much as the humans do. The Dalish are never going to be willing to help the "flat ears" because they are not real elves in their eyes. This makes me despise the Dalish. Their arrogance really is their folly.

 

Fortunately this should not be true of all Dalish, just like not all templars should be zealous mage-hunters.

[Topsider]

No Kindle edition? How quaint!

 

UK release date is April 17th but I'm not buying a paperback.

[TheJediSaint]

No Kindle edition? How quaint!

 

UK release date is April 17th but I'm not buying a paperback.

 

Uh?  I got the Kindle version on the 8th.  Here's the link.

[Topsider]

Uh?  I got the Kindle version on the 8th.  Here's the link.

 

Well its not available in the UK yet. Maybe that will change after the 17th.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Their views on "flat ears" though, appears to be quite typical.

 

No not really. Their antipathy is actually much more extreme than either Marithari or Zathrian's clan. So much so that they even point it out themselves. Thelhen says that other clans may take City Elves in but he would not.

 

Hahren Paivel believes that the City Elves are important because they will teach the Dalish to understand the humans. And Keeper Marithari was respectful to the City Elves that greeted her in Kirkwall. The Sabrae Clan also took in Pol. Zathrian made a former City Elf his First, and Lanaya herself just sort of has a quizzical attitude towards City Elves: She doesn't understand them but doesn't hate them and can actually come to appreciate their perspective more if the Warden tries to explain it her I think.

 

Even Velanna's contempt for the City Elves she meets in Amaranthine is built on the fact that she believes they have no pride and that as elves they should do better. Not because they are forever lost to them because they are forever tainted by the foulness of human nature.

[Tinu]

I just finished the book. It was a great read, though I felt the description of the battles went on for too long. I wish there would have been a larger focus on dialogue and motivations instead.

 

Spoiler

However the story itself was nicely written. I'm wonder what Briala will achieve with the eluvians. So far there haven't been much side-effects from using them, but I do believe there would be quite a few. The awakened eluvians surely make it more likely for the Veil to rip?

 

Felassan was easily my favorite character from the book. He obviously was killed by something grand. 

 

Dragon Age Inquisition: The Return of Fen'Harrel?

[bairdduvessa]

@bairdduvessa

 

Spoiler

Your assuming that the city elves would even surrender. The book seemed to make it clear that they were pushed too far and were never going to surrender. And don't act like these elves were innocent harmless victims.  You can't have a Kangaroo court if the the elves have barricaded their section of the city and are slowing progressing throughout the rest of city robbing and killing every human they can get their hands on. I don't feel bad for those elves, they had become little more than bandits. No matter terrible their oppression was they don't have the right to kill innocent humans.

 

If the Elves are unwilling to surrender and instead wish to fight to death, what choice does Celene have? She can't just try a few elves if the rest refuse to surrender. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think that its stated that every elf in the city was killed. It is after all a city that has more elves than humans so it seems very likely theres still a majority of elves left in the city. Celene didn't slaughter the whole population of the city.

i think that with the army, that they would have backed down a bit, like rioters they would have faded away with force.  but annihilation was too far

[llandwynwyn]

One thing about Celene is that she wears a mask in her own head, so we shouldn't trust what she says or thinks as it is.

Her never marrying wasn't about Briala at all, that's another lie she uses to manipulate her poor lover. She just doesn't want to share power. To Celene, Orlais is all hers. She doesn't improve it for the sake of her people, but for the vision she has of her legacy. To strengthen, to better her nation.

Don't be fooled by her claims to care about the elves, either. She doesn't. Her reaction on the devasted human town gives alway her real feelings on the worth of human/elven lives.

[ArtemisMoons]

I haven't read all 26 pages, but man oh man have I wanted to talk about this book. xD

Am I the only one who wants to see everyone the book mentions and go everywhere they do? xDD

 

I was totally sad about

Spoiler

Felassan's death as his backstory was something I wanted to learn more about. He's not really a Dalish elf but a spy. We don't know who he's spying for, but since he failed to give the Eluvians to his master, who we don't know anything about, he is killed. /sadface. I needed more info on him.
*And as others are saying, maybe he's not dead since death in the fade severs the connection, but then, I think what killed him may be strong enough to do so permanently, regardless of being in the fade or not. xD So many possibilities. 

[Mummy22kids]

I just finished the book yesterday. Now I'm re-reading Asunder in order to line up the events in my mind. I'm wondering how much reading the book will affect my play through of DAI. Stolen Throne changed my opinion of Loghain and The Architect.

[Wissenschaft]

One thing about Celene is that she wears a mask in her own head, so we shouldn't trust what she says or thinks as it is.

Her never marrying wasn't about Briala at all, that's another lie she uses to manipulate her poor lover. She just doesn't want to share power. To Celene, Orlais is all hers. She doesn't improve it for the sake of her people, but for the vision she has of her legacy. To strengthen, to better her nation.

Don't be fooled by her claims to care about the elves, either. She doesn't. Her reaction on the devasted human town gives alway her real feelings on the worth of human/elven lives.

 

 

Spoiler

I don't agree with this at all. Celene muses more than once about how she would be happier in another life where she is not the empress with all the responsibility that entails. People are forgetting that she made efforts to prevent her solders running amok killing and looting when they put down the elven rebellion. Celene thinks a lot about Briala and how devastated she will be about putting down the rebellion forcefully. In fact, Celene thinks about Briala a lot in the book especially about how she misses Briala when shes away. I've no doubt that Celene genuinely loves Briala.

 

The rebel elves were acting like bandits, attacking and killing merchant caravans (not just hostile guards). Celene even read reports of them harassing and driving out even the poor humans of the city. You don't get to play innocent victims after turning to murderous banditry.

 

The devastated human town was innocent because they committed no crime at all. Celene getting upset might just be another sign that she is too kind hearted to be the empress of the largest empire in Thedas. In a civil war plenty of innocent people are going to get killed but by trying to avoid war she has played into Gaspard hands. Which happens to be the main charge Gaspard uses against Celene. That she is too soft hearted to do what is necessary.

 

If you couldn't tell, I like Celene a lot. Far more than Gaspard, who comes off as just one more arrogant Orlisean noble to me.

[ArtemisMoons]

Spoiler

I'm definitely of the opinion that Celene loves Briala, but I also think that she realizes that it would be incredibly difficult to give Bria what she really wants for the elves. Not to mention as time passes, she starts to look at them as useful tools that are underutilized rather than people who may once become equals. When she talks to Gaspard while in the Eluvian, she mentions turning the elves into a spy/assassin network, which I think goes to show more where her mind goes with "useful" information. She thinks like an empress rather than a lover, which, to be fair, is kind of how she has to think.

[Wissenschaft]

Spoiler

you do release that being a spy/assassin network would give the elves better treatment by default. An empress will not abuse her spy network. It fact, this would give the elves an advantage over the poor humans of Orlais who are not going to get the same attention that Celene gives to the city elves.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Spoiler

The elves were attacking merchants. They were not just killing guards. We even read from the perspective of one of the rebel elves what they were doing. They were acting like bandits, attacking caravans, killing everyone and stealing what they could. And Celene was reading reports on the way to the city that the elves were moving into the poor human's area and harassing them as well. So yes, this rebellion was very realistic since it did turn into a us vs them bloodbath.

 

Spoiler

If you reread that section you'll see that the elves are only targeting and killing the guards in the market. The merchants and non-guards they leave to scatter and run (except for the one they steal the carriage from but IIRC Theren intends to release him after the hijacking). And if your gripe is that stealing is enough to massacre the entire elven section of the city, I must ask why (and yes, Celene, Briala, and everyone else involved make it perfectly clear that it was the entire elven section that was put down -- men, women, and children). The humans repeatedly steal from the elves and starve them -- it's explicitly mentioned in the books how the humans control when, how much, and how the elves eat. Again, what is so unreaosnable about limiting their attacks to the guards and stealing from the humans so that they can survive while erecting barricades to protect their quarter from the centuries of oppression? What else do you suggest they do? Wait for Celene to better their lot like good docile animals? Because that clearly would have worked out so well, as we saw at the end of the book.

 

 

Spoiler

As for Gaspard, he claims that it would be dishonorable to poison Celene but attempting to make her have a "hunting accident" is somehow better? Bull, Gaspard isn't honorable at all. He pays lip service to his knightly code then tries to assassinate Celene with the old Orlesian tradition of a hunting accident. Only after failing at that assassination attempt does he try out the "more honorable" military ambush. Yes, Gaspard does end up saving Celene's life but this is only after giving his word to cooperate while within the Eluvians. It seems to me that Gaspard's honor is more concerned about appearances than actually chivalry. If he went against his word then his soldiers, who view him as the embodiment of the chevaliers, would know his order's honor means nothing. Hes not willing to do that. But he is willing to assassinate Celene as long as it is out of sight of everyone.

[Wissenschaft]

Spoiler

Michel should be dead for failing as Celene champion more than once. Following the samurai's code of honor, Michel should have fell on his own sword before disgracing his empress let alone willingly losing a duel in her name. This civil war should have been over before it started but no, Michel choose to protect his own hided then serve his empress to his death. 

 

I wouldn't trust Gaspard's praise either, Micheal is not his champion. Orlesians nobles are well experience at spewing venom with a smile on their face and with fake hospitality/friendliness. After all, Gaspard attempted to kill Celene while having a rather pleasant attitude towards her. I seriously doubt Gaspard would have said the same words to Michel if he was Gespard champion who had just lost an duel in Gespard name.

[ArtemisMoons]

Spoiler

While it may offer the elves better treatment, it is at a cost. They aren't being given the option of freedom or equality, but rather being pressed into a war that they don't really have any interest in. They will be forced to cross a plane of existence that may still be dangerous to them. Being an elf does not necessarily grant them safe passage through the eluvians. They will become tools to the empire, rather than actually becoming a part of it. And what range of elves will Celene pull into the spy ring? Will children be exempt or will she see them as useful because nobles are most certainly going to ignore elven children. What about pregnant elves? Well they sure aren't suspicious, so better use them too. Or the elderly and sick? It's more about using a people than elevating them.

[Boss Fog]

Spoiler

Michel should be dead for failing as Celene champion more than once. Following the samurai's code of honor, Michel should have fell on his own sword before disgracing his empress let alone willingly losing a duel in her name. This civil war should have been over before it started but no, Michel choose to protect his own hided then serve his empress to his death. 

 

I wouldn't trust Gaspard's praise either, Micheal is not his champion. Orlesians nobles are well experience at spewing venom with a smile on their face and with fake hospitality/friendliness. After all, Gaspard attempted to kill Celene while having a rather pleasant attitude towards her. I seriously doubt Gaspard would have said the same words to Michel if he was Gespard champion who had just lost an duel in Gespard name.

 

 

Spoiler

 News flash, Chevaliers and Samurais are not the same thing.  As far as we know, Chevaliers don't have a "kill yourself if you fail code" the same way Samurais do.  There is no hypothetical situation here which proves your point.  Michel is not Gaspard's champion who just lost a duel for him; he was Celene's champion who just defeated Gaspard and ended his fighting career.  Also, why should we not trust Gaspard's praise of Michel?  He has no reason to sling "venom" at him.  The two men will likely never see each other again and they were all alone.  Every word Gaspard spoke he believed.  To assume otherwise is just incorrect.  Michel ended Gaspard's fighting career and did it with everything the Chevalier code dictates that he do.  Gaspard even said, "I would not insult you by asking you to join my cause."

[Wissenschaft]

Spoiler

 News flash, Chevaliers and Samurais are not the same thing.  As far as we know, Chevaliers don't have a "kill yourself if you fail code" the same way Samurais do.  There is no hypothetical situation here which proves your point.  Michel is not Gaspard's champion who just lost a duel for him; he was Celene's champion who just defeated Gaspard and ended his fighting career.  Also, why should we not trust Gaspard's praise of Michel?  He has no reason to sling "venom" at him.  The two men will likely never see each other again and they were all alone.  Every word Gaspard spoke he believed.  To assume otherwise is just incorrect.  Michel ended Gaspard's fighting career and did it with everything the Chevalier code dictates that he do.  Gaspard even said, "I would not insult you by asking you to join my cause."

 

Spoiler

There might not be anything that says Michel needed to commit suicide Samurai style but he violated his code twice. He abandoned Celene to go cover up is own past which almost got Celene killed. He then loses a duel that could have prevented civil war. Ending Gaspard's fighting career is meaningless, hes a general that wants to be emperor. Not being able to personally fight is not going to stop him from pursuing his insurrection. Screw the Chevalier Code, I don't trust any order who's school's final mission is to run amok drunk killing poor people. They lost any claim to honor from that very moment. As I said, I do question strongly if Gaspard would have the same praise for Michel if Michel was his champion who had just forfeited a duel to prevent a civil war.

 

As I said before, its interesting just how different peoples views can be after reading the same book. But I just really hate Gaspard. lol I can understand why Loghain was so paranoid about Orlieans. You cannot trust them. Celene even admits that she was hoping to do by marriage what her predecessor had failed to do by conquest, the annexation of Feredlen.

[MWImexico]

I just finished the book, it was a fine reading.

 

Spoiler

First thing, I'm super glad Briala and Michel weren't sacrificed at the end of the book on the altar of drama (That would have been a very common and predictible move from the writer, like to kill the "expandables sidekicks")

About Felassan, I wonder why he compared himself to Michel at the end of the book? My guess is, maybe Felassan was an old somniari mage possessed by a spirit (demon). His longevity was possible thanks to the spirit, like for Zathrian. I think that the spirit has spend so much time in Felassan's body than, in the end, he came to believe that he could decide who he chooses to be and where to place his loyalty / duty. A bit like Michel, Felassan was serving someone but in the end he broke his oath for personnal reasons : he saw himself as an elf suporter and he couldn't therefor betray Briala's effort. 'I'm personnaly sure that Felassan was a strong elf supporter, he was like his name suggested a "slow arrow". The sacrifice of the Dalish camp surely pissed him off but he couldn't do anything about that (look at the story about the "slow arrow" in the book for a parallel). Also, I think he doesn't like the Dalish attitude, I belive that he's more on the same page as Briala about that : an elf is an elf. period.

 

About Felassan's boss, well, I too suppose it's Fen'Harel. Though I'm not sure about it. Clearly this entity needs the Eluvians, the question is why? My guess is either it's because the entity is trapped in the Fade, either this entity is trapped somewhere in an inaccesible and lost place in Thedas, underground maybe. (Supposing that the Eluvians could be connected to other places than the "material" ones and could also be used as doors to the Fade).
Maybe I'm wrong but Imshael seemed to fear Felassan's master. All Felassan had to do is show/ point to his Dalish tatoos, Dalish tatoos who are well know to represent...an elven god. Question is : which one?

[Boss Fog]

Spoiler

There might not be anything that says Michel needed to commit suicide Samurai style but he violated his code twice. He abandoned Celene to go cover up is own past which almost got Celene killed. He then loses a duel that could have prevented civil war. Ending Gaspard's fighting career is meaningless, hes a general that wants to be emperor. Not being able to personally fight is not going to stop him from pursuing his insurrection. Screw the Chevalier Code, I don't trust any order who's school's final mission is to run amok drunk killing poor people. They lost any claim to honor from that very moment. As I said, I do question strongly if Gaspard would have the same praise for Michel if Michel was his champion who had just forfeited a duel to prevent a civil war.

 

As I said before, its interesting just how different peoples views can be after reading the same book. But I just really hate Gaspard. lol I can understand why Loghain was so paranoid about Orlieans. You cannot trust them. Celene even admits that she was hoping to do by marriage what her predecessor had failed to do by conquest, the annexation of Feredlen.

As I said before, you cannot make a point by giving hypothetical examples.  And what are you going on about saying the final mission of the Chevaliers is to run amok drunk killing poor people?  As if every single Chevalier has that objective branded into his skin; that's ludicrous.  Certainly I'm sure some Chevs are guilty of it but to hyperbole it into their mission statement isn't really helping you get your point across.

 

Spoiler

As I said before; we have no reason to distrust Gaspard's final words towards Michel.  Michel was leaving the Chevaliers for good and Gaspard was essentially wishing him farewell knowing they would never see each other again.  The exchange between the two was (I think) meant to show how Gaspard has gained some humility after getting his ass handed to him.  To me it was meant to show that he now had a sense that race or birthright honestly doesn't mean a thing when determining someone's worth.  If you want to continue distrusting him simply because he's a Chev, be my guest.  My point is that at that moment, there is no reason to distrust anything he says.  

[Heimdall]

As I said before, you cannot make a point by giving hypothetical examples.  And what are you going on about saying the final mission of the Chevaliers is to run amok drunk killing poor people?  As if every single Chevalier has that objective branded into his skin; that's ludicrous.  Certainly I'm sure some Chevs are guilty of it but to hyperbole it into their mission statement isn't really helping you get your point across.
 

Spoiler

As I said before; we have no reason to distrust Gaspard's final words towards Michel.  Michel was leaving the Chevaliers for good and Gaspard was essentially wishing him farewell knowing they would never see each other again.  The exchange between the two was (I think) meant to show how Gaspard has gained some humility after getting his ass handed to him.  To me it was meant to show that he now had a sense that race or birthright honestly doesn't mean a thing when determining someone's worth.  If you want to continue distrusting him simply because he's a Chev, be my guest.  My point is that at that moment, there is no reason to distrust anything he says.  

Is he honest? Sure, except when he's spreading slanderous rumors about who Celene spends her nights with. My problem with Gaspard isn't that he lies, though he does. He usually keeps his word and he's got a code of honor towards fellow warriors, yes, but he's also a power hungry warmonger that strives to restore Orlais to the expansionist days of yore. That, and his generally being quite full of himself, tick me off about him.

[llandwynwyn]

Spoiler

I don't agree with this at all. Celene muses more than once about how she would be happier in another life where she is not the empress with all the responsibility that entails. People are forgetting that she made efforts to prevent her solders running amok killing and looting when they put down the elven rebellion. Celene thinks a lot about Briala and how devastated she will be about putting down the rebellion forcefully. In fact, Celene thinks about Briala a lot in the book especially about how she misses Briala when shes away. I've no doubt that Celene genuinely loves Briala.
 
The rebel elves were acting like bandits, attacking and killing merchant caravans (not just hostile guards). Celene even read reports of them harassing and driving out even the poor humans of the city. You don't get to play innocent victims after turning to murderous banditry.
 

 
If you couldn't tell, I like Celene a lot. Far more than Gaspard, who comes off as just one more arrogant Orlisean noble to me.

So what if she thinks of not being the Empress of Orlais when we know given the chance she would choose the throne every time, no matter whose life it would cost?

About Bria....Yes, Celene loved her. But she still heavily manipulated Bria for most of their time together. 20 years. And would still keep doing it, if Briala didn't became wiser during DAME.

The devastated human town was innocent because they committed no crime at all. Celene getting upset might just be another sign that she is too kind hearted to be the empress of the largest empire in Thedas. In a civil war plenty of innocent people are going to get killed but by trying to avoid war she has played into Gaspard hands. Which happens to be the main charge Gaspard uses against Celene. That she is too soft hearted to do what is necessary.

I won't even bother defending the elves, it's obvious you see all of them as deserving of the punishment. I'll ask you this, though...If Celene cares so much about their lives, has such a good heart, why wasn't she affected by the massacre ordered by her hand? Yet she was shaking and full of rage by the innocent human life lost on that town.

Celene only cares about them when it comes to Briala or when they can be useful to her.