Maybe I'm wrong but Imshael seemed to fear Felassan's master. All Felassan had to do is show/ point to his Dalish tatoos, Dalish tatoos who are well know to represent...an elven god. Question is : which one? [/spoiler]
i've been doing fan "art" of felassan in the fan art threads. for his blood writing i've been using
@bairdduvessa :
As I said before, you cannot make a point by giving hypothetical examples. And what are you going on about saying the final mission of the Chevaliers is to run amok drunk killing poor people? As if every single Chevalier has that objective branded into his skin; that's ludicrous. Certainly I'm sure some Chevs are guilty of it but to hyperbole it into their mission statement isn't really helping you get your point across.
Spoiler
The mission given to the students that learn from the school that trains Chevaliers is to get the students drunk and then they are let loose to kill everyone they can. Michel thinks back on this period with a hint of shame. As for Gaspard having learned a lesson about birthright, perhaps he has. It could be humility that he was showing. I still wouldn't trust him and for good reason. I'm not trusting anyone who attempts to assassinate an empress just so he can gain the crown.
So what if she thinks of not being the Empress of Orlais when we know given the chance she would choose the throne every time, no matter whose life it would cost?
About Bria....Yes, Celene loved her. But she still heavily manipulated Bria for most of their time together. 20 years. And would still keep doing it, if Briala didn't became wiser during DAME.
I won't even bother defending the elves, it's obvious you see all of them as deserving of the punishment. I'll ask you this, though...If Celene cares so much about their lives, has such a good heart, why wasn't she affected by the massacre ordered by her hand? Yet she was shaking and full of rage by the innocent human life lost on that town.
Celene only cares about them when it comes to Briala or when they can be useful to her.
Briala has been manipulating Celene as well. Using Celene love for her to provide suggestions on how to improve the lives of the city elves.
Again, I do feel like the book showed Celene was upset about having to put down the elven rebellion. She was trying to avoid bloodshed and hoping the rebellion could be ended peacefully. The elves were still rebels unlike the human town who were literally Innocent people. They had done nothing wrong and were slaughtered.
I don't see all the elves as deserving as punishment, just the ones acting as bandits. Again, theres no indication in the book that all the elves of the city were slaughtered. A portion of the city was set aflame but the whole city is full of elves. Celene even made sure to follow closely with her troops to make sure they were not looting or excessively killing elves. It shows Celene was concerned about excessively punishing the elves who were just rebelling because of abusive treatment.
Oh, and I would just like to say now that I've got no issue with people disagree with me. This is just how I see things after reading the book.
One thing about Celene is that she wears a mask in her own head, so we shouldn't trust what she says or thinks as it is.
Her never marrying wasn't about Briala at all, that's another lie she uses to manipulate her poor lover. She just doesn't want to share power. To Celene, Orlais is all hers. She doesn't improve it for the sake of her people, but for the vision she has of her legacy. To strengthen, to better her nation.
Don't be fooled by her claims to care about the elves, either. She doesn't. Her reaction on the devasted human town gives alway her real feelings on the worth of human/elven lives.
Trying to prove that what someone thinks on their own head is somehow false is quite the order. How do you propose to do it?
You're already using a contradicton. Either Celene thinks of Orlais as an extension of her, in which case she sees humans and elves equally or she cares only about humans in which case she does care about the lives of innocents.
The mission given to the students that learn from the school that trains Chevaliers is to get the students drunk and then they are let loose to kill everyone they can. Michel thinks back on this period with a hint of shame.
Trying to prove that what someone thinks on their own head is somehow false is quite the order. How do you propose to do it?
You're already using a contradicton. Either Celene thinks of Orlais as an extension of her, in which case she sees humans and elves equally or she cares only about humans in which case she does care about the lives of innocents.
Well its a mute point since we know Celene cares about her city elves since its from her own thoughts that we know just how much she worries about their plight and status.
@Eirene
I suppose it is a bit like that which is rather disgusting but it sure seems like everything in Orlais is complicated. Grrr, I miss Ferelden already. lol I'm tempted to play a human inquisitor just so I can bring the Ferelden perspective to this absurd Orliean game.
@bairdduvessa :
Spoiler
tricksters are like that
One thing about Celene is that she wears a mask in her own head, so we shouldn't trust what she says or thinks as it is.
Her never marrying wasn't about Briala at all, that's another lie she uses to manipulate her poor lover. She just doesn't want to share power. To Celene, Orlais is all hers. She doesn't improve it for the sake of her people, but for the vision she has of her legacy. To strengthen, to better her nation.
Don't be fooled by her claims to care about the elves, either. She doesn't. Her reaction on the devasted human town gives alway her real feelings on the worth of human/elven lives.
I think she does care about the elves, but in an abstract way. She cares for them in that they are her citizens. Sure it would be great if they got a fair shake. Happy citizens are citizens that won't rebel. But she won't risk her kingdom for them. She'll use them and dispose of them jsut as she'll use and dispose of anyone else. And with as little guilt,
tricksters are like that
Mmm.. well, in fact when I think about it more ...
I don't see all the elves as deserving as punishment, just the ones acting as bandits. Again, theres no indication in the book that all the elves of the city were slaughtered. A portion of the city was set aflame but the whole city is full of elves.
You still haven't addressed the question as to why elves stealing to support and feed themselves warrants death -- you keep dodging it. Also, the book makes it very clear that the entire elven section of the city is put to the torch. Celene wants an orderly, quick operation and no distractions like looting, rape, etc, but it never indicates that she spares anyone during the massacre. Not to mention that, even if it was only one section of the city, as you claim, there would still be elves not part of the rebellion killed by the nobles -- again, men, women, and children. Again, why should the elves tolerate being arbitrarily beaten and starved? Why shouldn't they take action into their own hands and steal to feed themselves?
To be honest, Celene came across to me as something of an enigma. For most of the book she struck me as far more sentimental and less pragmatic than I imagined her. To the point where eventually it almost seemed like they were undermining the the notion that she was a supposedly ruthless player of the Game. And she did really seem to me like she cared about the elves and her citizens, but eventually I got the sense that that perspective seems to be largely derived from Briala. Much of her romantic notions about saving the elves, making the lives of her citizens better or about romance seem to dominate her thoughts when she's with or thinking about Briala. And at all other times, that's when the confident Machiavellian manipulative Empress tends to come out.
You still haven't addressed the question as to why elves stealing to support and feed themselves warrants death -- you keep dodging it. Also, the book makes it very clear that the entire elven section of the city is put to the torch. Celene wants an orderly, quick operation and no distractions like looting, rape, etc, but it never indicates that she spares anyone during the massacre. Not to mention that, even if it was only one section of the city, as you claim, there would still be elves not part of the rebellion killed by the nobles -- again, men, women, and children. Again, why should the elves tolerate being arbitrarily beaten and starved? Why shouldn't they take action into their own hands and steal to feed themselves?
I never said it does warrant death. And Celene would have preferred to avoid it in the first place. She sent Briala to do a quiet assassination and let things settle down. But when it became clear that she neeeded a more explicit "symbol" to keep the nobles happy, she had no problem crushing the elves either. Only really feeling bad about how Briala will feel about it.
Celene is not as brutal as many Orlesian nobles, but she still sees other people as tools and pawns
And yes, the elves have every right to be p*ssed about that.
Edit: My bad. For some reason thought you were addressing me
Orlais is an empire and not a democracy. What she did to the elves is only fitting for a rebellion in a kingdom, no matter its supporters. Cut Celene some slack will you?
You still haven't addressed the question as to why elves stealing to support and feed themselves warrants death -- you keep dodging it. Also, the book makes it very clear that the entire elven section of the city is put to the torch. Celene wants an orderly, quick operation and no distractions like looting, rape, etc, but it never indicates that she spares anyone during the massacre. Not to mention that, even if it was only one section of the city, as you claim, there would still be elves not part of the rebellion killed by the nobles -- again, men, women, and children. Again, why should the elves tolerate being arbitrarily beaten and starved? Why shouldn't they take action into their own hands and steal to feed themselves?
Because they murdered guards and instigated a rebellion. Even in Ferelden, if a human steals sacks of grain from the crown, the law states he should hang.
Murdering guards? (whistles)
And then there's the whole politicking behind it.
Because they murdered guards and instigated a rebellion. Even in Ferelden, if a human steals sacks of grain from the crown, the law states he should hang.
Murdering guards? (whistles)
And then there's the whole politicking behind it.
And just because the law (which is determined by elite nobles and intentionally targeting an oppressed underclass) says so that makes it right? Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's morally or ethically acceptable, particularly in a medieval monarchy....
Once again, none of this addresses the fact that Celene had a choice and she chose murder.
And just because the law (which is determined by elite nobles and intentionally targeting an oppressed underclass) says so that makes it right. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's morally or ethically acceptable, particularly in a medieval monarchy....
Once again, none of this addresses the fact that Celene had a choice and she chose murder.
I didn't say that? But you asked why did the elves' actions warranted death and I'm answering you. Because it's written in the law.
And, like I said, there's also the politicking behind it. If killing the elves had prevented nobles from gathering around Gaspard, then it might have actually prevented a war thus sparing lives.
Also, we should take into account that those elves were not staging protests in the streets demanding equal treatment, They were killing humans with the express purpose of kicking them out of the city. Granted, they didn't threaten the empire as a whole but they certainly threatened the human population of Halamshiral.
They were even driving the poorer humans out of their homes and absorbing them in the name of "elven liberation". I very much doubt those humans were involved in any opression experienced by the elves.
I think people looking at Celene's actions as "right or wrong" are doing so using today's morality. Which is a different can of worms.
However, when you realize that she is an empress of a country, one that is clearly teetering on a very thin wire, you see that taking action was necessary.
The action she took HAD to be crushing, as the elves by this point were too far angered to allow diplomacy. Allowing any group of people to get away with murder (literally) causes more problems.
If Celene had allowed the elves to continue, she would have had yet another side of chaos, which would make her look weak and unable to do what an empress/emperor must, lead. If she is unable to lead, then why would the nobility allow her to remain on the throne?
Her actions may have seemed harsh, but what else could Celene have done? Allowed rampant murder and rebellion? Attempted to talk which likely would have lead in an attempt on her life?
Those saying Celene made the wrong choice need to ask themselves exactly what other path she could have taken.
I didn't say that? But you asked why did the elves' actions warranted death and I'm answering you. Because it's written in the law.
And, like I said, there's also the politicking behind it. If killing the elves had prevented nobles from gathering around Gaspard, then it might have actually prevented a war thus sparing lives.
I wasn't asking why Celene did it, I'm really aware as to the why. My question was addressed to Wissenchaft for his previous statements justifying Celene's actions in burning the elven portion of Halamshiral.
Also, we should take into account that those elves were not staging protests in the streets demanding equal treatment, They were killing humans with the express purpose of kicking them out of the city. Granted, they didn't threaten the empire as a whole but they certainly threatened the human population of Halamshiral.
Having already warned me of not imposing "modern values" on Thedas, you do realize how ironic this statement is right? The notion of protests, let alone peaceful protests, did not emerge until the 20th century so there's no such concept of peaceful protests in Thedas. Everything is by the sword and all that.
And I feel like I'm repeating myself ad nausem at this point because I've already said it several times to Wissenchaft but, from what we actually saw first hand of the so-called "rebellion" was elves restricting themselves to attacking the guards and stealing food form the merchants -- there intentions were hardly kicking them out of the city but rather to fortify their own section of the city and defend themselves from human encroachment and control. Good for them.
They were even driving the poorer humans out of their homes and absorbing them in the name of "elven liberation". I very much doubt those humans were involved in any opression experienced by the elves.
You're extrapolating a lot from a report (written by privileged nobles) to Celene that simply said the elves are now in the "poorer human areas of the city" (which to me indicated the market they were targeting to procure food and supplies for themselves. I'm not sure where you got the bit about elves driving humans out of their homes as I don't recall that anywhere in the report or in the book. And why do you doubt the poorer humans are involved in exploiting and abusing the elves? Not all of them surely but likely a sizable amount of them. That would be an incredibly unfeasible historical scenario for anyone who's remotely paid attention to historical class/race structures (or modern ones for that matter).
I know where not supposed to discuss politics on these boards but I'm really curious as to how people's perspectives on the Halamshiral incident reflect their real life political views on similar topics. Maybe I'll ask a mod if I can make a thread about that as that seems a fascinating topic to discuss in and of itself.
Clearly, what she should have done was execute that noble for the murder of an innocent man. That too would have prevented a war.
If for no other reason because Celene would not have supporters left with which to oppose Gaspard.
I think people looking at Celene's actions as "right or wrong" are doing so using today's morality. Which is a different can of worms.
This sort of historical relativism strongly reminds me of people who use cultural relativism to avoid condemning things like child marriage, domestic abuse of women, harassment of LGBT individuals, etc. in developing countries. Systematically and individually oppressing a group of people based on their race and/or class is wrong no matter how you slice it, regardless of historical era or culture. The only difference is in the degree of acceptability and tolerance that most people have for such behavior in a given historical era or culture. That doesn't change whether it's "right" or "wrong."
However, when you realize that she is an empress of a country, one that is clearly teetering on a very thin wire, you see that taking action was necessary.The action she took HAD to be crushing, as the elves by this point were too far angered to allow diplomacy. Allowing any group of people to get away with murder (literally) causes more problems.
See, again, people are so quick to condemn the elves for what they call "murder," even though their attacks only targeted the guards whereas they're completely fine ignoring the routine murder, beatings, and rapes the nobility and their guards had routinely performed on the elves for centuries. As they seemed to only be targetting the guards, it was essentially a form of desperate self-defense but people are still condemning the "elves" as murderers while ignoring the actions of the guards and nobility (and probably the human laypeople as well).
If Celene had allowed the elves to continue, she would have had yet another side of chaos, which would make her look weak and unable to do what an empress/emperor must, lead. If she is unable to lead, then why would the nobility allow her to remain on the throne?Her actions may have seemed harsh, but what else could Celene have done? Allowed rampant murder and rebellion? Attempted to talk which likely would have lead in an attempt on her life?
Those saying Celene made the wrong choice need to ask themselves exactly what other path she could have taken.
Well it certainly would have turned more of the nobles against her and putting her on a losing footing in her war against Gaspard -- no one disputes that. And from the perspective of staying in power, it's exactly the best thing she could have done. And it's also why, like most ruling elites in any historical era, she's such a horrible person. Just as Gaspard will do anything to attain power, she'll do anything to stay in power and, like Gaspard, she'll justify it by her ego -- arguing that she does it because she's the best monarch. Sure, she'd be slightly better than Gaspard with her new monarch model but for the majority of Orlesian commoners (elf or human) it's really just asking whether you'd like to get shat on or pissed on -- and certainly not worth starting a war and massacring thousands over.
Celene could have not done it and accepted the possibility that it might lead to her abdication as empress. It basically happened because of one woman's self-righteous ego.
Although, I'm also not convinced that refraining from an all out massacre would have meant she would have lost so much noble support against Gaspard. She could have brought the armies in, executed some of the ringleaders kangaroo-court style, then impose a heavy military presence to keep the elves in line. Still ethically questionable of course, but slightly better, albeit less efficient and more risky in terms of her staying in power.
ETA:
Clearly, what she should have done was execute that noble for the murder of an innocent man. That too would have prevented a war.If for no other reason because Celene would not have supporters left with which to oppose Gaspard.
Mmm.. well, in fact when I think about it more ...Spoiler
yea i don't think it is
I'm too lazy to quote everyone, so...
I don't know why people are determined on making Celene a less complex character than she is. Why would anyone want that is beyond my comprehension.
You can't fully trust her mind because she is an unreliable narrator, simple as that. Her contradictions are all over the book.
She thinks and say that the elven are part of Orlais and deserve more, but feels no guilty of crushing them as she did. Her reaction at the farm is a direct contrast to her previous actions with the CE. Her usage of the slur is no coincidence, either.
In the end of the book, when she more loose in her thoughts, contemplates on using, and risking, them on the Eluvian. And if you think she would givem the equal rights, I don't know what to tell you.
And you can't, just can't compare her manipulations to Briala's. For one, Ccelene was fully aware of what Bria was doing and probably considered it child's play. She amused Bria in some things due to the fact she had all the power in the relationship. Their feelings are sincere, but the dynamic wasn't equal.
To take that away from her is to make her a simplistic, boring character.
I'm pretty sure she did say she felt bad crushing the elven rebellion, but she believed it had to be done. Her attitude is that if she feels it necessary to destroy some to save the empire she will always do it. But she will still feel bad. And her reaction to the human village she stumbled across is very different from Halamshiral. That massacre was senseless. Men fighting for her slaughtered half the people of a village because they were "enemies of the crown" but they didn't even know about the war. It was unnecessary.
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