He doesn't 'toss his code out the window'. He swore that he would do whatever briala asked, no matter what. If it meant breaking his oath so be it.
So he broke his oath and his code of the chevlaiers for another off the cuff code he came up with himself. Nice to be able to ditch codes as one feels needed.
So he broke his oath and his code of the chevlaiers for another off the cuff code he came up with himself. Nice to be able to ditch codes as one feels needed.
How do you know the code?
Some do, but I still maintain that murdered parents is a dealbreaker, feelings or no. Well, for most people anyway. I can't speak for Briala, but I'm speculating it's a dealbreaker for her, too.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see if this is something you can influence in DAI. Convince Briala and Celene to rejoin forces against Gascard, or choose to support just one party.
For most people, I agree. Briala, I'm less sure of. Even after that revelation, her reasoning for betraying Celene seemed to have more to do with her feeling that Celene wasn't advancing the cause of elven equality fast enough (Which is bollocks if you ask me, I have issues with her whole rational and the effectiveness of her methods, but that's neither here nor there...) than feelings of betrayal or a desire for vengeance. Her feelings on that betrayal in particular are surprisingly muted. I'm not quite sure what to make of it in truth.
I'm curious about that too, though if not I suspect Briala will represent a third option to supporting either of them (Basically sending Orlais further into anarchy)
I don't think it's that Celene wasn't doing it fast enough. It's that Felessan convinced Briala (and me) that Celene's heart wasn't truly in it. That she was just doing what she could to pacify Briala, not for the elves. That Celene would always choose winning the Game over the well being of the elves. Therefore, any changes for the elves brought on by Celene wouldn't be long lasting or meaningful.For most people, I agree. Briala, I'm less sure of. Even after that revelation, her reasoning for betraying Celene seemed to have more to do with her feeling that Celene wasn't advancing the cause of elven equality fast enough (Which is bollocks if you ask me, I have issues with her whole rational and the effectiveness of her methods, but that's neither here nor there...) than feelings of betrayal or a desire for vengeance. Her feelings on that betrayal in particular are surprisingly muted. I'm not quite sure what to make of it in truth.
I'm curious about that too, though if not I suspect Briala will represent a third option to supporting either of them (Basically sending Orlais further into anarchy)
I don't think it's that Celene wasn't doing it fast enough. It's that Felessan convinced Briala (and me) that Celene's heart wasn't truly in it. That she was just doing what she could to pacify Briala, not for the elves. That Celene would always choose winning the Game over the well being of the elves. Therefore, any changes for the elves brought on by Celene wouldn't be long lasting or meaningful.
So, Briala decided to do something drastic. If she can use the Eluvians and the Civil War to somehow build a better life for her people, I'd support that over Celene or Gascard. I understand if others disagree.
See, I sort of get that's what Felessan might have been driving at, but it makes no sense to me. After all, if Celene doesn't play the Game, she won't be able to stay in power. If she doesn't stay in power, she won't be able to do anything for the elves at all and the next monarch likely won't be so sympathetic. If anything, what she already has done for the elves has worked against her politically.
If Briala can, I might too, I just don't see how she can really expect to do that and I'm not personally willing to let the Orlesian countryside burn for the elves.
For once I'm agreeing with beer fish O.oSo he broke his oath and his code of the chevlaiers for another off the cuff code he came up with himself. Nice to be able to ditch codes as one feels needed.
So he broke his oath and his code of the chevlaiers for another off the cuff code he came up with himself. Nice to be able to ditch codes as one feels needed.
If he broke anyone of his code he would not be a chavlier anymore. So his damed if he do and damed if he does not.
For once I'm agreeing with beer fish O.o
And yeah, there's only one code he follows....but it means nothing to him obviously as he regularly ignores it for what he feels like doing.
Not at all. He never ignores his code.
Yeah good old Michel kept the code, well except for how he got into the Chevaliers in the 1st place and then when everything was on the line he tosses the code out the window because he made a promise under blackmail/duress to an elven servant. Then, on top of it all he immediately spills the beans on what was promised to be kept secret on his own. The guy lost his marbles. If he was not a traitor and stuck to the code he should have lopped off Brialas head when she got too uppity.
Your 2nd point is nonsense, Briala got just as much out of the relationship as Celene. Using the word tricked there is bull. This is ignoring the fact that Celene went well out of her way to make things better for Briala and the city elves and compared to what would happen if another was on the throne, say...Gaspard she and her city elves had it good relatively speaking compared to how it could be.
Who he got in is irreverent. He was not a chevilier then. And the entire issue is that he is damned no matter what he does. If he did not keep his promise he would not be a chevalier anymore, if he did he would not be a chevilier anymore. He said his secret because it was pointless to keep it anymore.
And no she was tricked into the relationship. Would she ever be with Celene if she knew who really was the killer of her parents? Celene lied to her and used her as an asset. She gave Barla what she want when she felt like it and if she was pressed to she took what ever kindness to the elves way for pretenses.
Which his code dictated that he should
Uphold at all costs, and since it was taken not only as the first oath, but to his monarch(the woman who he swore to protect with his life). Then he negated the point of breaking his original vow anyways, by spilling the beans. Not only did he break his vow, he invalidated the reason for doing do, and then directly allowed the civil war to occur.
His code dictates he keep his word no matter what. Throwing out his word would brake his code. He's damned if he does and damned if he does not.
You sound like Barbossa..
"You best start believing in ghost stories, Inquisitor... you're in one!"
If he broke anyone of his code he would not be a chavlier anymore. So his damed if he do and damed if he does not.
My beef is that all we hear about the whole game is his code with chevaliers, the training, that it made him be the man he was and that he wanted it more than anything. Then at the end he tosses it into the sewer for no good reason at all because he coughed up the info he was trading his one task for within seconds. In my mind he ultimately failed the test and a price should be on his head from any and all true chevaliers.
Who he got in is irreverent. He was not a chevilier then. And the entire issue is that he is damned no matter what he does. If he did not keep his promise he would not be a chevalier anymore, if he did he would not be a chevilier anymore. He said his secret because it was pointless to keep it anymore.
And no she was tricked into the relationship. Would she ever be with Celene if she knew who really was the killer of her parents? Celene lied to her and used her as an asset. She gave Barla what she want when she felt like it and if she was pressed to she took what ever kindness to the elves way for pretenses.
We'll have to agree to strenuously disagree then. Everything Michel talked about and did and trained for the whole game, the reason he was chosen to be the protector of the empress was all a huge mistake. Two wrongs don't make a right and yet people seem to be thinking it does.
As for Celene and Briala, The empress being the empress and all and playing the game did what was necessary. Don't tell me Briala did not enjoy being the chosen lover of the empress. Celene could have just as easily had Briala killed at any time and found a new spy. Briala at best was very naive but at the end she showed just how big of a mistake Celene had made by not lopping of her head. Briala essentially sewered Michel and became a huge threat to the empire.
The number one thing that Gasaprd and Celene should do at this point in time is to put together a truce and spend all resources wiping out this new serious elven threat. Then go back to warring.
My beef is that all we hear about the whole game is his code with chevaliers, the training, that it made him be the man he was and that he wanted it more than anything. Then at the end he tosses it into the sewer for no good reason at all because he coughed up the info he was trading his one task for within seconds. In my mind he ultimately failed the test and a price should be on his head from any and all true chevaliers.
He brought it up because their was no point to hide it. Keeping his word is part of his code. If he does not keep his word with Barla he brakes his code. Their was not point to keep it secret.
We'll have to agree to strenuously disagree then. Everything Michel talked about and did and trained for the whole game, the reason he was chosen to be the protector of the empress was all a huge mistake. Two wrongs don't make a right and yet people seem to be thinking it does.
As for Celene and Briala, The empress being the empress and all and playing the game did what was necessary. Don't tell me Briala did not enjoy being the chosen lover of the empress. Celene could have just as easily had Briala killed at any time and found a new spy. Briala at best was very naive but at the end she showed just how big of a mistake Celene had made by not lopping of her head. Briala essentially sewered Michel and became a huge threat to the empire.
The number one thing that Gasaprd and Celene should do at this point in time is to put together a truce and spend all resources wiping out this new serious elven threat. Then go back to warring.
1. Except of course their was no normal means to find out about it. Some form of change has to start form some were. This type of change is who woman were allowed to be Cheiliers.
2.It was not an issue of doing what was necessary. The time she had Briala's parent killed she was not the emperss. She only did that so she can find protection from Gaspard which ironicly she did not need. Added, Braila was he best spy. She's nearly head less with out her as we see in the book when she has to act on her own. Braila is leeps and bounds better then Celene in the game. Celene disposing Braila would be like cutting off her right arm. Celene mistake was the issue that she could not full hide everything form her and she underestimated how calculating Braila is.
3.And Gaspard and Celene really can't do that. The elves and their mirrors are too valuable.
I disagree that Celene only improve the elven condition just to please Briala, it's a hugely impopular agenda she was pushing, one that can only be supported if you want it.
More generally, she wanted to improve culture, art, science, enlightement, and make the society more meritocratic, which would be the only way to improve the elven condition in the racist society of Orlais.
But Briala, heated by the Halamshiral repression, lost all trust in Celene when she found out Celene murdered her parents, so she said "screw this I'm doing this my way", which is a good thing, because despite Celene's will to improve the elven condition, she was still up against the entire Orlesian society, and wilth the civil war, all that the elves gained was at stake.
A someone who played with the dalish elf origin in the first game, its kinda sad how the dalish have become xenophobic arseholes.
I was sad that Clan Virnehn was populated by nothing more than one-dimensional caricatures, with an asinine warleader who couldn't even use 'shemlen' properly, a Keeper who violated their prohibition against using magic that involves spirits, and multiple clan members who were using Andrastian terms instead of elven ones (to be fair, because the author said it would be too confusing for readers otherwise, but that only makes me concerned about whether or not the cultural views and expressions of an elven Inquisitor is going to be diluted due to the voiced protagonist). They were little more than a plot device for Briala and the Eluvians, and admittedly, they were atypical of the Dalish.
No they aren't (in regards to point #3)
They elven resistance doesn't contain every single elf, and the eluvians are useless to someone with a human army. So no the mirrors aren't valuable to the orlesians, and neither is the elven rebellion. Once it's put down, that's it, and everything mostly goes back to normal.
Also, you're saying Michel was damned if he did and damne if he didn't....so? That means he took the less honorable choice. He made a bargain with briala to save his status, then threw everything away anyways. After betraying the monarch for who he was champion, and not stopping a civil war. He could've told briala to sod off, kille gaspard, and if briala told anyone he has Celene the undisputed(and elf-loving) empress of Orlais to back him. On top of that, he would have the resources of an entire(not civil war ridden) nation to hunt down his little forbidden "oops"
Wrong. The fact that they can be used to cut time with transport and info make it invaluable. The issue that humans can't use it make it irreverent. It make elves more important in the get go. Giving out the mirrior cast away a great advantage they would have over other places. It just mean they now have to negotiate with elves on far treatment.
And you not getting the concept of what a a chevalier is. They are they are their code. If they disregard their code they are not chevaliers. That form of deceit is ageist their code. If he told Briala to sod off he would no longer be a chevalier. Being a cheviler in name only is not being a chevalier. Think about it like being justacar and fallowing their code.
Edit: obviously there wouldn't be much of a continuation if that happened, but the point stands. Michel is a moron, dishonorable, and he utterly ignores his code when it suits him. That said, definitely want to help him fight Imshael in DA:I
His code mean keeping his word. No matter what he does he would of broken his code. He never drops it when it suited him. The very predicament he was in forced him to break his code.
.....look, I'm not sure why the first half of everything I say seems to keep going over your head but let me repeat. Yes, regardless of his actions he was fucked. However, his oath to his empress was made first and to a vastly more important person. Ergo, it was the one he should've kept, not only as a chevalier but as her champion. He had to break one regardless, but "he chose poorly"His code mean keeping his word. No matter what he does he would of broken his code. He never drops it when it suited him. The very predicament he was in forced him to break his code.
In regards to the eluvians, yes, they can transport stuff...if you have elves doing the transporting. So they only benifit elves, and if the orlesians wanted to completely stop the elf rebellion, they'd smash the hell out of every mirror an leave them stranded an without any actual bargaining chips or advantages. Because to use them at all would require loyal elves...,which seem to be in short supply.
Ha ! good chance smashing a mirror that only reveals itself it you're looking for it. Also, Eluvians are all around Theads, not just Orlais.
No they aren't (in regards to point #3)
They elven resistance doesn't contain every single elf, and the eluvians are useless to someone with a human army. So no the mirrors aren't valuable to the orlesians, and neither is the elven rebellion. Once it's put down, that's it, and everything mostly goes back to normal.
Also, you're saying Michel was damned if he did and damne if he didn't....so? That means he took the less honorable choice. He made a bargain with briala to save his status, then threw everything away anyways. After betraying the monarch for who he was champion, and not stopping a civil war. He could've told briala to sod off, kille gaspard, and if briala told anyone he has Celene the undisputed(and elf-loving) empress of Orlais to back him. On top of that, he would have the resources of an entire(not civil war ridden) nation to hunt down his little forbidden "oops"
No, if Briala had revealed his secret he would have had his status as a chevalier revoked anyway. Celene doesn't decide who is and is not a chevalier, the head of the chevaliers does. He threw nothing away. In keeping his promise to bria he broke his oath to celene, thus meaning he was no longer a chevalier. So it would not have mattered whether or not he was a commoner anyway.
.....look, I'm not sure why the first half of everything I say seems to keep going over your head but let me repeat. Yes, regardless of his actions he was fucked. However, his oath to his empress was made first and to a vastly more important person. Ergo, it was the one he should've kept, not only as a chevalier but as her champion. He had to break one regardless, but "he chose poorly"
No. No. No. His promise to briala meant doing what she said, no matter what which kept in line with his code. Hence why he would've not arrested her. From the wiki: During the duel, Briala calls in her favor and asks Michel to yield to Gaspard instead of killing him. Michel is honor-bound to that promise and yields. This technically loses Celene's duel and, consequently, Michel's position as Celene's champion.
Retour en haut
