1058 réponses à ce sujet

[Dermain]

A someone who played with the dalish elf origin in the first game, its kinda sad how the dalish have become xenophobic arseholes.

 

According to Fellasen, the majority of Dalish clans are like that. It really doesn't surprise me since, besides the Origins clan(s), the Dalish seem to dislike city elves, focus entirely on the past, and have no interest in anything humans do.

 

It gets apparent that Fellasen is not a typical Dalish if he's even a Dalish at all, and a lot of information regarding early Tevinter and the state of the Dalish is said by him.

 

've noticed more of these kinds of errors in novels these days, and it seems to betray a great reliance on a spell checker more than a human editor and proofer, since so many grammar and logical errors slide through the process. 

 

Editors are a dying profession. Curse you e-books!!!

 

I disagree that Celene only improve the elven condition just to please Briala, it's a hugely impopular agenda she was pushing, one that can only be supported if you want it.

 

More generally, she wanted to improve culture, art, science, enlightement, and make the society more meritocratic, which would be the only way to improve the elven condition in the racist society of Orlais.

 

But Briala, heated by the Halamshiral repression, lost all trust in Celene when she found out Celene murdered her parents, so she said "screw this I'm doing this my way", which is a good thing, because despite Celene's will to improve the elven condition, she was still up against the entire Orlesian society, and wilth the civil war, all that the elves gained was at stake.

 

That's what I don't get though.

 

if Gaspard wins the war the elves are screwed. If Celene wins the war the elves are still screwed but less so. By letting Gaspard live it increases his chances of winning the war, and screwing over the elves entirely. It does not make sense, and even someone affected by emotions should be able to figure that out.

[Ozzy]

By leaving him alive, the civil war continues and Orlais is left in chaos. Letting him die assures that Celene will be able to reclaim control with little fuss. I suppose there's the chance that Celene and Gaspard call a temporary truce and focus their efforts on putting down the elves though. 

[Vapaa]

By leaving him alive, the civil war continues and Orlais is left in chaos. Letting him die assures that Celene will be able to reclaim control with little fuss. I suppose there's the chance that Celene and Gaspard call a temporary truce and focus their efforts on putting down the elves though. 

 

This, also, the Eluvians give the elves a considerable advantage, even if Gaspard wins. Briala saw in the eluvians the solution for the elves to stop relying on (a few) humans.

[Heimdall]

This, also, the Eluvians give the elves a considerable advantage, even if Gaspard wins. Briala saw in the eluvians the solution for the elves to stop relying on (a few) humans.

I'm still not sure how. It's not as if the elves will remain unscathed by the war as the countryside turns to ash around them and Nevarra gears up for invasion. It all seems rather shortsighted.

[Beerfish]

No. No. No. His promise to briala meant doing what she said, no matter what which kept in line with his code. Hence why he would've not arrested her. From the wiki: During the duel, Briala calls in her favor and asks Michel to yield to Gaspard instead of killing him. Michel is honor-bound to that promise and yields. This technically loses Celene's duel and, consequently, Michel's position as Celene's champion.

The 'promise' was made under duress if not down right black mail.  It won't hold up in court as being honor bound.  And I would think a promise to the empress of O'rlais and the Chevlaiers trumps a promise made to an elven servant, especially when the promise is totally open ended.  Briala should have said, "I'm clling in my promise Michel, kill both Celene and Gaspard!"
 

I guess he would have been honour bound to do so right?

[Beerfish]

According to Fellasen, the majority of Dalish clans are like that. It really doesn't surprise me since, besides the Origins clan(s), the Dalish seem to dislike city elves, focus entirely on the past, and have no interest in anything humans do.

 

It gets apparent that Fellasen is not a typical Dalish if he's even a Dalish at all, and a lot of information regarding early Tevinter and the state of the Dalish is said by him.

 

 

Editors are a dying profession. Curse you e-books!!!

 

 

That's what I don't get though.

 

if Gaspard wins the war the elves are screwed. If Celene wins the war the elves are still screwed but less so. By letting Gaspard live it increases his chances of winning the war, and screwing over the elves entirely. It does not make sense, and even someone affected by emotions should be able to figure that out.

Because Briala = Anders, I gotta do something big!  Damn the consequences!

[LobselVith8]

According to Fellasen, the majority of Dalish clans are like that. It really doesn't surprise me since, besides the Origins clan(s), the Dalish seem to dislike city elves, focus entirely on the past, and have no interest in anything humans do.

 

I don't see how Clan Virnehn are supposed to be representative of most clans when they continually violate the tenants of the Dalish, including the prohibition against using magic that involves spirits. Their view of the city elves doesn't seem to be shared by anyone else, either. One of their historians for the People, and their hahren, even talk about wanting to have the city elves be a part of a new independent elven kingdom of the Dales, and Paivel in particular talks about how the Dalish and the city elves can learn from one another.

 

We've also met enough clans to know that this simply isn't true. Zevran's clan rescued Aneirin when they stumbled across him near death after the templars attacked him and left him for dead, Zevran brought Lanaya to the clan after killing the humans who enslaved her - and she was permitted to compete against several competitors for the role of First, Pol was welcomed into the clan, and Merrill not only cares about the plight faced by the Alienage elves, but she encourages killing Kelder so no more elven children die at his hands.

 

The developers have made a point of addressing that the clans are different, and that they can vary from one another, from the clans who are little more than bandits in Tevinter to the clans who live peacefully near the Rivaini who follow the Natural Order outside the city of Llomerryn. Simply because Felassan, who makes more than a few derogatory comments towards the Dalish, claims that a clearly atypical clan is representative of the entirety of the Dalish, doesn't make it so - particularly when our own experience with the clans makes us informed that he's absolutely wrong.

 

That's what I don't get though.

 

if Gaspard wins the war the elves are screwed. If Celene wins the war the elves are still screwed but less so. By letting Gaspard live it increases his chances of winning the war, and screwing over the elves entirely. It does not make sense, and even someone affected by emotions should be able to figure that out.

 

Briala is planning to use the Eluvians to let both sides weaken by attrition, thereby allowing the elves an opportunity that won't likely ever again to free themselves from a system that's limited them to roles of servitude (that even the elven Warden, in his or her opinion, can consider slavery in disdain) and left entire populations vulnerable to purges, from the Denerim Alienage to Halamshiral. I'm glad that Briala choose not to help restore the status quo, and instead wants a better future for her people. I hope she has a successful network of the Andrastian and Dalish elves by the time the elven Inquisitor heads to the region.

[Beerfish]

 

Briala is planning to use the Eluvians to let both sides weaken by attrition, thereby allowing the elves an opportunity that won't likely ever again to free themselves from a system that's limited them to roles of servitude (that even the elven Warden, in his or her opinion, can consider slavery in disdain) and left entire populations vulnerable to purges, from the Denerim Alienage to Halamshiral. I'm glad that Briala choose not to help restore the status quo, and instead wants a better future for her people. I hope she has a successful network of the Andrastian and Dalish elves by the time the elven Inquisitor heads to the region.

Yeah as I said she is just like Anders.  Except one thing, both Celene and Gaspard have shown they are willing to put aside their own war and the game that goes with it if there is an overall threat to O'rlais.  Gaspard was old school in how he treats elves, Briala just eliminated her only real connection to power by thumbing her nose at Celene.  It's more likely that the powers that be unite long enough to totally purge the Briala led elves.   Both Gaspard and Celene have good knowledge of the Iluvians now and the danger they present.

[leaguer of one]

.....look, I'm not sure why the first half of everything I say seems to keep going over your head but let me repeat. Yes, regardless of his actions he was fucked. However, his oath to his empress was made first and to a vastly more important person. Ergo, it was the one he should've kept, not only as a chevalier but as her champion. He had to break one regardless, but "he chose poorly"

In regards to the eluvians, yes, they can transport stuff...if you have elves doing the transporting. So they only benifit elves, and if the orlesians wanted to completely stop the elf rebellion, they'd smash the hell out of every mirror an leave them stranded an without any actual bargaining chips or advantages. Because to use them at all would require loyal elves...,which seem to be in short supply.

Edit: seriously, you somehow manage to skip a sentence or two in each of my posts. Yes eluvians are useful...to elves. That is it. If elves are rebelling, they're an active detriment to orlais(the mirrors). So they should be smashed. Or the rebellion should, either or.

1. But he is a chevalier first. Would you think he would through everything he is for his empress?

 

2.But would loose what ever advantage they could have with the mirrors. Destroying the mirror destroy  what ever potential they can get from them. They can benefit everyone even if only the elves can only use it. And the mirrors span continents they can't find them all.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah as I said she is just like Anders.  Except one thing, both Celene and Gaspard have shown they are willing to put aside their own war and the game that goes with it if there is an overall threat to O'rlais.  Gaspard was old school in how he treats elves, Briala just eliminated her only real connection to power by thumbing her nose at Celene.  It's more likely that the powers that be unite long enough to totally purge the Briala led elves.   Both Gaspard and Celene have good knowledge of the Iluvians now and the danger they present.

1. Gaspard is also willing to make a deal with the elves for the use of the mirrors.

2. Celene is one to try and make deal and manipulate rather then destroy.

 

The issue you are not getting is that they bother see potential for the mirriors and won't just blindly destroy them.

[leaguer of one]

Because Briala = Anders, I gotta do something big!  Damn the consequences!

Not the same thing. Anders was an extremist  who killed people to make a point. Briala's actions is only to give the elves an advantage.

[Heimdall]

Not the same thing. Anders was an extremist  who killed people to make a point. Briala's actions is only to give the elves an advantage.

An advantage to achieve what exactly?  Destroy Orlais and establish an elven state just in time to be steamrolled by Nevarra?

[leaguer of one]

An advantage to achieve what exactly?  Destroy Orlais and establish an elven state just in time to be steamrolled by Nevarra?

Why would you think an elven state would need a destroyed Orlais. Any weakening of Orlais is an eventuality and the fault of the nobles. And what would it matter if Orlais fell, counties change all the time. And Why would Nevarra have reason to attack the elven state?

[LobselVith8]

By leaving him alive, the civil war continues and Orlais is left in chaos. Letting him die assures that Celene will be able to reclaim control with little fuss. I suppose there's the chance that Celene and Gaspard call a temporary truce and focus their efforts on putting down the elves though. 

 

I think it's possible that Orlais follows the example of Ferelden, a nation of people who didn't even halt a civil war in the face of the Blight. Given what we've heard about the necessity for the Inquisitor, it seems the Orlesian civil war will still rage on despite the threat posed by the Breach.

[Vapaa]

I'm still not sure how. It's not as if the elves will remain unscathed by the war as the countryside turns to ash around them and Nevarra gears up for invasion. It all seems rather shortsighted.

 

Elves can hide in the "Eluvian world"; there are caves completely sealed in the real world that is only accessible with via the Eluvians.

[CronoDragoon]

I'm still not sure how. It's not as if the elves will remain unscathed by the war as the countryside turns to ash around them and Nevarra gears up for invasion. It all seems rather shortsighted.

 

An instantaneous supply line (or for covert operations) would equal automatic victory for whichever side the elves chose to support. This gives them considerable leverage in the Civil War, and over time Briala is counting on this leverage solidifying into real social change within Orlais.

 

Elves will die, yes. But elves are dying now without consequence, and they are doing it for no cause whatsoever. Briala is giving elves a cause, and cloaking them in the protective aura of Celena and Gaspard's self-interest. If either side intiates anything close to another Halamshiral, it would be disastrous for them.

[Heimdall]

Elves can hide in the "Eluvian world"; there are caves completely sealed in the real world that is only accessible with via the Eluvians.

They can't just move the entire population. Secrecy keeps the eluvian's useful. All it takes is for one elf to reveal the location of an exit to Celene or Gaspard's forces for that part of the network to be barricaded and rendered useless (Torture will loosen tongues, though I imagine coin will suffice for many)

Vast migrations aren't going to happen.

[Heimdall]

Why would you think an elven state would need a destroyed Orlais. Any weakening of Orlais is an eventuality and the fault of the nobles. And what would it matter if Orlais fell, counties change all the time. And Why would Nevarra have reason to attack the elven state?

Briala is actively encouraging the weakening of Orlais by perpetuating the Civil War.

[Burricho]

The 'promise' was made under duress if not down right black mail.  It won't hold up in court as being honor bound.  And I would think a promise to the empress of O'rlais and the Chevlaiers trumps a promise made to an elven servant, especially when the promise is totally open ended.  Briala should have said, "I'm clling in my promise Michel, kill both Celene and Gaspard!"
 

I guess he would have been honour bound to do so right?

Yes he would have. Alsooo, Gaspard and michel talk about how if gaspard revealed michel's secret to the chevaliers he would have been executed. There is no court. If bria reveals his secret he's dead anyway. Even if celene somehow kept him alive, a lot of nobles are chevaliers and would look down on her for it, thus losing more support.

[TheLittleBird]

I almost yelled at the clan in the book for being such idiots.

"If you and Gaspard slew each other, and the war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alienage to the ground... then we would be willing to return to Halamshiral."
- Keeper Thelhen of Clan Virnehn to Celene

Yeah, and you treating the Empress of Orlais like any other shem to play "Fen'Harel's Teeth" with would make this scenario far more likely than helping her return to Val Royeaux so that she can rally her forces to continue the war. Right.
Quite the ignorant bunch, these Dalish. And pretty short-sighted, at least the leaders of this particular clan.

[Beerfish]

1. Gaspard is also willing to make a deal with the elves for the use of the mirrors.

2. Celene is one to try and make deal and manipulate rather then destroy.

 

The issue you are not getting is that they bother see potential for the mirriors and won't just blindly destroy them.

Oh they won't destroy the mirrors if they can help it.  They will try and gain total control of them for themselves and that means Briala and her ilk need to be removed.  And since elves are the ones that can make best use of them they may decide the danger will always be there of an elven revolt.  They may be viewed as being more trouble than they are worth.

[Heimdall]

An instantaneous supply line (or for covert operations) would equal automatic victory for whichever side the elves chose to support. This gives them considerable leverage in the Civil War, and over time Briala is counting on this leverage solidifying into real social change within Orlais.

Elves will die, yes. But elves are dying now without consequence, and they are doing it for no cause whatsoever. Briala is giving elves a cause, and cloaking them in the protective aura of Celena and Gaspard's self-interest. If either side intiates anything close to another Halamshiral, it would be disastrous for them.

Halamshiral only happened as a direct response to an elven rebellion and political pressures. The only reason either Celene or Gaspard would perpetrate a second would be another rebellion. If an armed rebellion is in play, I seriously doubt either side is shortsighted enough not to see what Briala is doing. Neither would let it stand. And it's all moot anyway, because as I said, as Orlais weakens by the day, Nevarra will be preparing for an invasion. Whatever Briala achieves will be very short term.

[Beerfish]

Not the same thing. Anders was an extremist  who killed people to make a point. Briala's actions is only to give the elves an advantage.

Both have taken extreme actions because they feel their 'people' mages or elves have been picked on.  However both decisions were made relatively in a short sighted manner.  By giving the elves an advantage she may have doomed many many innocent elves both city and dalish.  Just as Anders actions has endangered the lives of many mages.

[Beerfish]

Yes he would have. Alsooo, Gaspard and michel talk about how if gaspard revealed michel's secret to the chevaliers he would have been executed. There is no court. If bria reveals his secret he's dead anyway. Even if celene somehow kept him alive, a lot of nobles are chevaliers and would look down on her for it, thus losing more support.

So he revealed his secret anyway 1.3 seconds after keeping his under duress open promise to an elven servant rather than up holding his pledge to protect the empress.  The guy was a bone head.

[Vapaa]

They can't just move the entire population. Secrecy keeps the eluvian's useful. All it takes is for one elf to reveal the location of an exit to Celene or Gaspard's forces for that part of the network to be barricaded and rendered useless (Torture will loosen tongues, though I imagine coin will suffice for many)

Vast migrations aren't going to happen.

 

We're talking guerilla here, not migration, the rebellion can virtually strike anywhere in Orlais in mere hours.