1058 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

No, it doesn't.

Yes it does. You're saying that they are going to shift man power and resource to stop elves movement while the other army is nicking at their heels?

[Vapaa]

I'm talking about the elven population. They will suffer in this war as well.

 

Sadly, every population will suffer, loyalists and rebels will clash, human or not, and freedom was never gained without suffering.

 

Yes it does. You're saying that they are going to shift man power and resource to stop elves movement while the other army is nicking at their heels?

 

Yeah, two Orlesians fighting for the throne will each keep their end of the barging and focus on the elves and not stab each other in the back...seems legit.

[Mistic]

I'd consider Merrill an unorthodox Dalish, but even she was ostracized originally for speaking to a spirit and using a school of magic that involved a spirit. I also never said that Clan Virnehn wasn't Dalish, although I do consider it unfortunate, given the lack of depth to the characters, and their existence solely solely as a plot device for the Eluvians.

 

However, Clan Virnehn is as representative of the entirety of the Dalish as Alrik and his accomplices are of all the Templar Order. There's no reason to consider an atypical clan as representative of the Dalish as a whole, particularly when we have numerous examples that disprove this notion - including ones provided by the developers in addressing how varied the Dalish clans can be. No group is perfect, and the Dalish are no exception. Even one-dimensional cutboard cutouts like Clan Virnehn.

 

I think the comparison with Alrik and company is spot on (that reminds me how I loathed Templar and Mage portrayal in DAII).

 

How are they the general rule when they explicitly contradict what one of their primary historians and the hahren say about welcoming the willing city elves into the Dalish and how WoT reads that the Dalish don't use magic that involves spirits? Felassan's repeated disdain for the Dalish isn't sufficient enough to consider me that all the evidence to the contrary is wrong.

 

Things can change. Remember when Aequitarians and Loyalists controled the Circles? When Templars protected not only mundanes from mages, but also mages from mundanes? Or when Dalish didn't use magic involving spirits? Hell, for all we know, Marethari's clan could have been a conservative one, and that would explain many things (no spirits! welcome city elves!). Clan Virnehn were like an evil mirrored version of Merrill.

 

What I want to say is... Damn, I want to see an Arlathvhen in DA:I! Please, Bioware, make it happen!

[Heimdall]

Yes it does. You're saying that they are going to shift man power and resource to stop elves movement while the other army is nicking at their heels?

No, I'm saying they'll stop any elven movements that could compromise their entrenched positions, encampments and fortifications.  They wouldn't even have to go out of their way.

[Heimdall]

Sadly, every population will suffer, loyalists and rebels will clash, human or not, and freedom was never gained without suffering.

That's not my point, my point is that there's no reason to believe the elves will be in any significantly better position than the humans to when all is said and done, which is pretty much the basis of Briala's plan.

[Vapaa]

That's not my point, my point is that there's no reason to believe the elves will be in any significantly better position than the humans to when all is said and done, which is pretty much the basis of Briala's plan.

 

We do know that living under human rule is a no-no, even with a empress that actually tried to push things forward, the rest of the society won't accept it (and before else, that requires a benevolent Orlesian ruler, which is already a tall order), so Briala is doing the only rhing that can yield results: fight for the freedom.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

 

Yeah, two Orlesians fighting for the throne will each keep their end of the barging and focus on the elves and not stab each other in the back...seems legit.

Thanks for bring up my point.

[leaguer of one]

No, I'm saying they'll stop any elven movements that could compromise their entrenched positions, encampments and fortifications.  They wouldn't even have to go out of their way.

They can't really do that. Being that the elves can hide that movement and focusing too much on that exposes them to their back to their enemy they really can be fully effective. Civil wars are messy and they turn a country to a mess. Their is no way they can be that organize to full stop the movement of the elves in a civil war.

[Beerfish]

They can't really do that. Being that the elves can hide that movement and focusing too much on that exposes them to their back to their enemy they really can be fully effective. Civil wars are messy and they turn a country to a mess. Their is no way they can be that organize to full stop the movement of the elves in a civil war.

No O'rlais and the two main leaders of the factions already proved they are willing to stop and work together if necessary.  They are also above all else loyal to O'rlais, are smart and have seen 1st hand directly the use and the potential of the mirrors.  They've also 1st hand seen Briala's actions and essentially her intent.  This is not some 3rd hand account brought to the attention of leaders too caught up in their little war to take seriously.  Celene has shown what she is prepared to do to put down an elven rebellion.  Gaspard has shown from day one he's have no problem with wiping any elf out that is a problem.

 

The potential for the two waring sides to put things aside long enough to deal with this new threat is very high.

[leaguer of one]

No O'rlais and the two main leaders of the factions already proved they are willing to stop and work together if necessary.  They are also above all else loyal to O'rlais, are smart and have seen 1st hand directly the use and the potential of the mirrors.  They've also 1st hand seen Briala's actions and essentially her intent.  This is not some 3rd hand account brought to the attention of leaders too caught up in their little war to take seriously.  Celene has shown what she is prepared to do to put down an elven rebellion.  Gaspard has shown from day one he's have no problem with wiping any elf out that is a problem.

 

The potential for the two waring sides to put things aside long enough to deal with this new threat is very high.

Not really. Gaspard is a person that would always keep his word but Celene has been proven not to. She in fact tried to personally kill Gaspard in the fights in the tunnels but her Champion stopped her. Their is something holding Gaspard to his word but nothing for Celene. Even in the cases of a life and death struggle, Celene would still have Gaspard killed given half the chance.And only life and death danger woulf ever force the 2 to work to get and  The elven rebellion is far from that.

Gaspard also has been shown to use deceit to win battle and already made his word to make a deal with the elves for their cooperation if he gets out the mirrors. So stomping out the elves is not going to be his first focus.

[LobselVith8]

Things can change. Remember when Aequitarians and Loyalists controled the Circles? When Templars protected not only mundanes from mages, but also mages from mundanes? Or when Dalish didn't use magic involving spirits? Hell, for all we know, Marethari's clan could have been a conservative one, and that would explain many things (no spirits! welcome city elves!). Clan Virnehn were like an evil mirrored version of Merrill.

 

Some people already hate the Dalish simply because they don't butter the protagonist's butt upon arrival, and I doubt that will change by altering the majority of them to fit a clan like Virnehn, who were simply too one-dimensional for me to take seriously. I'd rather see three-dimensional elves who have nuanced reasons for their points of view, who might be different from each other due to their life experiences and what they have endured in their respective regions, and who engage in philosophical debates over the future of the Elvhen as a whole. There's so much potential to do more with the Dalish, and that was a serious failing of "The Masked Empire". Gaspard, Celene, and Briala were given depth, but the same wasn't true for the Dalish; it's why I'd rather see some different depictions of the People in Inquisition.

 

What I want to say is... Damn, I want to see an Arlathvhen in DA:I! Please, Bioware, make it happen!

 

As do I.

[Heimdall]

We do know that living under human rule is a no-no, even with a empress that actually tried to push things forward, the rest of the society won't accept it (and before else, that requires a benevolent Orlesian ruler, which is already a tall order), so Briala is doing the only rhing that can yield results: fight for the freedom.

The underlying assumption (That insurrection is the only path that can yield results and peaceful reform cannot) is flawed.

Reform must be managed carefully. It is a long road and certainly doesn't provide immediate relief in the present, but in the long term it's certainly a viable option. Setbacks are to be expected.

[leaguer of one]

The underlying assumption (That insurrection is the only path that can yield results and peaceful reform cannot) is flawed.

Reform must be managed carefully. It is a long road and certainly doesn't provide immediate relief in the present, but in the long term it's certainly a viable option. Setbacks are to be expected.

Sometimes reform has to be imposed. That's why civil right laws were made to make sure it was mainted on a federal level then a state level when the state was to bias to do anything to change.

[Heimdall]

Sometimes reform has to be imposed. That's why civil right laws were made to make sure it was mainted on a federal level then a state level when the state was to bias to do anything to change.

All reform is imposed and all reform must be implemented with care, lest it backfires and lead to more violence.  Allow me to tell you something a history professor of mine once told me (He in turn was references another historian but I can't remember who): to the reformer falls the task of finding some way to deal with both those that assume a change is intrinsically wonderful and pursue it recklessly, and those that assume a change is inherently bad and reject it outright.  The reformer must find a way to change society that allows it to adapt for the future but keeps it from tearing itself apart in the process.  It is not an easy path.  It is not a quick path.  It is not a popular path.  I respect Celene greatly for tackling this most challenging course despite the setbacks.

[leaguer of one]

All reform is imposed and all reform must be implemented with care, lest it backfires and lead to more violence.  Allow me to tell you something a history professor of mine once told me (He in turn was references another historian but I can't remember who): to the reformer falls the task of finding some way to deal with both those that assume a change is intrinsically wonderful and pursue it recklessly, and those that assume a change is inherently bad and reject it outright.  The reformer must find a way to change society that allows it to adapt for the future but keeps it from tearing itself apart in the process.  It is not an easy path.  It is not a quick path.  It is not a popular path.  I respect Celene greatly for tackling this most challenging course despite the setbacks.

The problem is that she easily back peddle on those plans. I understand it takes time and it's not easy the the issue here is that their people who want to pull these reforms out from under her. It's more then just the treatment of the elves but also the treatment  nobles have over commoners at large. Even if the elves get better treatment the noble would just treat them like any other commoner, which is still crap. It's not the elves alone that are treated badly. We have a class of people who can rape others and get a way with it. We have nobles who can wipe out a town if they fell like it an that it's their right. Their is alot more wrong with Orlais then just the treatment of the elves.

[Heimdall]

The problem is that she easily back peddle on those plans. I understand it takes time and it's not easy the the issue here is that their people who want to pull these reforms out from under her. It's more then just the treatment of the elves but also the treatment  nobles have over commoners at large. Even if the elves get better treatment the noble would just treat them like any other commoner, which is still crap. It's not the elves alone that are treated badly. We have a class of people who can rape others and get a way with it. We have nobles who can wipe out a town if they fell like it an that it's their right. Their is alot more wrong with Orlais then just the treatment of the elves.

She doesn't backpedal. She does what she has to stay in power. If she allowed Gaspard to topple her, her reforms won't survive the interregnum. The idea of Celene's policies aim to open doors for elves, let them compete, let them display their most brilliant minds in the halls of academia, let them establish themselves and prove to be of worth to Orlais. Change is more permanent when you sway hearts and minds rather than at sword point. The more they do that, the harder it will be to roll back her reforms in further generations. To do all that, she must first maintain herself in a position to pass reforms at all.

I'm not turning this into a broader discussion of class relations in Orlais, though I'll say that such systems usually erode overtime rather than fall to violent uprisings (Peasant and artisan class uprisings are not unknown in medieval history, very few of them were at all successful. The same can be said of historic slave uprisings, most just get a lot of people killed and accomplish nothing. Sometimes they make things worse as the ruling group clamps down)

[leaguer of one]

She doesn't backpedal. She does what she has to stay in power. If she allowed Gaspard to topple her, her reforms won't survive the interregnum. The idea of Celene's policies aim to open doors for elves, let them compete, let them display their most brilliant minds in the halls of academia, let them establish themselves and prove to be of worth to Orlais. Change is more permanent when you sway hearts and minds rather than at sword point. The more they do that, the harder it will be to roll back her reforms in further generations. To do all that, she must first maintain herself in a position to pass reforms at all.

I'm not turning this into a broader discussion of class relations in Orlais, though I'll say that such systems usually erode overtime rather than fall to violent uprisings (Peasant and artisan class uprisings are not unknown in medieval history, very few of them were at all successful. The same can be said of historic slave uprisings, most just get a lot of people killed and accomplish nothing. Sometimes they make things worse as the ruling group clamps down)

Oh yes she does. She was forced to in order to keep the nobles on her side. That's backpedaling,willing or not. And that is an issue. Her actions of the backpeddle was never to counter Gaspard but to keep the nobles on her side. I agree change happen more when you sway hearts and minds but it never happen in those hearts and minds are not willing to listen and that is one of the major issues with the nobility of Orlais. They don't want to listen.

 

And we can't talk about this unless we talk about class. That is the main issue with how  the elves are treated. Depending on when these uprising happen change can happen, like the russian revolution and the french revolution.(Though both of those turned out to be mess even if the masses won.)

[Heimdall]

Oh yes she does. She was forced to in order to keep the nobles on her side. That's backpedaling,willing or not. And that is an issue. Her actions of the backpeddle was never to counter Gaspard but to keep the nobles on her side. I agree change happen more when you sway hearts and minds but it never happen in those hearts and minds are not willing to listen and that is one of the major issues with the nobility of Orlais. They don't want to listen.
 
And we can't talk about this unless we talk about class. That is the main issue with how  the elves are treated. Depending on when these uprising happen change can happen, like the russian revolution and the french revolution.(Though both of those turned out to be mess even if the masses won.)

...Keeping the nobles on her side was exactly a counter to Gaspard, who was directly playing off her elven policies to sway them. One has to convince those minds that the message is worth listening to. As I've explained, there's a reason her strategies are aimed at giving the elves opportunities rather than imposing top down equality outright. Given the evidence against inferiority, it will be easier to convince people and implement more outright reforms moving forward. (Ironically, I got the sense that Gaspard didn't give a damn about those policies. His problem with Celene was her non-expansionist attitude)

No I'd say institutionalized racism is the more pertinent topic. If you want a more general discussion of class, that's another topic and not one likely to be addressable at the same time. There's only so much upheaval a nation can take. (As to those revolutions you mentioned, first I don't think Thedas is at a point where such successes are likely, and I'd just like to point out the extraordinary amount of bloodshed and intolerant purges associated with both those you mentioned and question whether you should assume their success is truly preferable to a more gradual reform process)

[leaguer of one]

...Keeping the nobles on her side was exactly a counter to Gaspard, who was directly playing off her elven policies to sway them. One has to convince those minds that the message is worth listening to. As I've explained, there's a reason her strategies are aimed at giving the elves opportunities rather than imposing top down equality outright. Given the evidence against inferiority, it will be easier to convince people and implement more outright reforms moving forward. (Ironically, I got the sense that Gaspard didn't give a damn about those policies. His problem with Celene was her non-expansionist attitude)

No I'd say institutionalized racism is the more pertinent topic. If you want a more general discussion of class, that's another topic and not one likely to be addressable at the same time. There's only so much upheaval a nation can take. (As to those revolutions you mentioned, first I don't think Thedas is at a point where such successes are likely, and I'd just like to point out the extraordinary amount of bloodshed and intolerant purges associated with both those you mentioned and question whether you should assume their success is truly preferable to a more gradual reform process)

Counter? She played right into his plans. His plan was never to turn the nobles ageists her. He cares nothing about what the nobles think. His planned was to force her to deal with the elf upraising in an attempt to gain their favor back and force her into his trap. If Gaspard was able to he would kill off all those nobles.

 

My point is that it's not just racism. Take that away and the elves are treated like any other commoner, which is not much better. That's my point. Give the elves the same treatment as other commoner just means they are going to be under the heal of nobles just the same. It makes no difference. If elves what better treatment as orlsian citizens then their is a need to improves how orlsian citizens are treated along with it. It one in the same at this point.

[Heimdall]

Counter? She played right into his plans. His plan was never to turn the nobles ageists her. He cares nothing about what the nobles think. His planned was to force her to deal with the elf upraising in an attempt to gain their favor back and force her into his trap. If Gaspard was able to he would kill off all those nobles.

 

My point is that it's not just racism. Take that away and the elves are treated like any other commoner, which is not much better. That's my point. Give the elves the same treatment as other commoner just means they are going to be under the heal of nobles just the same. It makes no difference. If elves what better treatment as orlsian citizens then their is a need to improves how orlsian citizens are treated along with it. It one in the same at this point.

That she was outmaneuvered and tricked has no bearing on whether or not she was backpedalling on her reform agenda.  Gaspard wouldn't kill them, he understands that he can't rule Orlais without the support of the nobility, he'd lead them off to war with Ferelden.

 

See, your trying to switch the topic of debate from making Orlais a better place for the elves to class warfare here.  That's not Briala's mission, she only cares about the elves.  That's not Celene's mission, even if she decides to address it down the line (A rather difficult beast to handle, as she depends on the support of the nobility she'd be censuring to stay in power).  Gaspard's a traditionalist, he cares about reviving the Orlesian Empire of yore, not social reform(And he would be just as dependent on the nobility).  No side in this war is fighting about the role of the commoner.  No one in this fight is fighting for the human peasants.  Saying "But she doesn't address the peasant's plight too!" doesn't undercut Celene's efforts to implement peaceful social reform for the elves.

[leaguer of one]

That she was outmaneuvered and tricked has no bearing on whether or not she was backpedalling on her reform agenda.  Gaspard wouldn't kill them, he understands that he can't rule Orlais without the support of the nobility, he'd lead them off to war with Ferelden.

 

See, your trying to switch the topic of debate from making Orlais a better place for the elves to class warfare here.  That's not Briala's mission, she only cares about the elves.  That's not Celene's mission, even if she decides to address it down the line (A rather difficult beast to handle, as she depends on the support of the nobility she'd be censuring to stay in power).  Gaspard's a traditionalist, he cares about reviving the Orlesian Empire of yore, not social reform(And he would be just as dependent on the nobility).  No side in this war is fighting about the role of the commoner.  No one in this fight is fighting for the human peasants.  Saying "But she doesn't address the peasant's plight too!" doesn't undercut Celene's efforts to implement peaceful social reform for the elves.

Of couse he would kill them. He made it a point the ones who was supporting that he would. He would stomp out anyone in his way, noble or not. And  her her being outmaneuvered does have bearing on her backpeddling. The fact that she backpeddle placed her in the trap in the first place.

 

And I'm not switch the topic. I have a valid point. Look how the state of the US was at the time of the civil right era. the common citizens were allowed fair right as a basic right non-whites were not.  How can you just say or think that policies for fair treatment for elves would even start fix things for the elves? If fair treatment mean being treated like normal Illinoisan citizens, who are treated like crap, how does that improve anything?

The fact that Celene doesn't address the peasant's plight contradicts her  implement peaceful social reform for the elves. If you fix thing so that the chevaliers focus on the elves on their train that just means both the elves and commoner human get attached by them.

[Heimdall]

Of couse he would kill them. He made it a point the ones who was supporting that he would. He would stomp out anyone in his way, noble or not. And  her her being outmaneuvered does have bearing on her backpeddling. The fact that she backpeddle placed her in the trap in the first place.

 

And I'm not switch the topic. I have a valid point. Look how the state of the US was at the time of the civil right era. the common citizens were allowed fair right as a basic right non-whites were not.  How can you just say or think that policies for fair treatment for elves would even start fix things for the elves? If fair treatment mean being treated like normal Illinoisan citizens, who are treated like crap, how does that improve anything?

The fact that Celene doesn't address the peasant's plight contradicts her  implement peaceful social reform for the elves. If you fix thing so that the chevaliers focus on the elves on their train that just means both the elves and commoner human get attached by them.

...And Gaspard's competency as a ruler lessens.  Slaughtering the nobility is a great way to make your reign short and encourage the nobility to turn against you.  As I told you, it was not backpedalling.  Burning Halamshiral was meant to allow her to continue her policies by cementing her position in power.  She fell into the trap because she analyzed the situation as a politician and not, owing to her inexperience in military matters, as a general.

 

You're the one that started going on about "But it doesn't count unless she elevates all the peasants!" when I made my point about seeking gradual peaceful reform.  You seem to be looking for reason's to downplay her efforts.  It doesn't contradict her, and its just as irrelevant as the first time you brought it up.  However badly the peasants in Orlais are treated, the laws and customs of Orlais still favor humans and bar elves from important institutions.  A human commoner can join the priesthood and become a revered mother.  An elf cannot.  Just because she decides to tackle one incredibly difficult task at a time doesn't make her efforts contradictory.

[leaguer of one]

...And Gaspard's competency as a ruler lessens.  Slaughtering the nobility is a great way to make your reign short and encourage the nobility to turn against you.  As I told you, it was not backpedalling.  Burning Halamshiral was meant to allow her to continue her policies by cementing her position in power.  She fell into the trap because she analyzed the situation as a politician and not, owing to her inexperience in military matters, as a general.

 

You're the one that started going on about "But it doesn't count unless she elevates all the peasants!" when I made my point about seeking gradual peaceful reform.  You seem to be looking for reason's to downplay her efforts.  It doesn't contradict her, and its just as irrelevant as the first time you brought it up.  However badly the peasants in Orlais are treated, the laws and customs of Orlais still favor humans and bar elves from important institutions.  A human commoner can join the priesthood and become a revered mother.  An elf cannot.  Just because she decides to tackle one incredibly difficult task at a time doesn't make her efforts contradictory.

He wants to imposed his rule via force. What do you expect?

 

And she fell into the trap because she never though Gaspard would use the game to manipulate her. If Braila was there she would of warned Celene. And remember Celene did promise Braila to allow her to handle Halamshiral. Celene orignal was not planning to burn Halamshiral to the ground but to later come in with her army as a show of force. She back peddled on that. So she did backpeddle.

 

I'm not trying to down play her efforts, I'm just pointing out that her efforts are on a tredmill. It the foundation of her reforms are not stable then they are virtually pointless. It would be like civil right laws with no group  or ground to enforce them. Part of that  foundation should be the treatment of the commoners by the nobility. If that is not address things can easily go back to point zero. Even if the laws are changes to make things more fair for elves, it means nothing if they are treated like crap like everyone commoner. Just focusing on the elves oversees the real issue.

[Vapaa]

The underlying assumption (That insurrection is the only path that can yield results and peaceful reform cannot) is flawed.

 

No, if gradually changing the society didn't work, so what else could ?

 

Reform must be managed carefully. It is a long road and certainly doesn't provide immediate relief in the present, but in the long term it's certainly a viable option. Setbacks are to be expected.

 

Celene literally spend 20 years trying to change Orlesian society, and all she got was public for supporting the elves...and that's because she's an oddball among Orlesian noble that actually care about the elves, if the next emperor is anything like the rest of the nobility, all of Celene's hard work would go down the drain.

 

It's been 700 years since the fall of the Dales, and the situation didn't improve, so what are the elves supposed to do ? wait about some more or try to make things better when they have something to make the difference ?

[efd731]

Personally, I'm fairly confused about how celene still had a leg to stand on in this war. The elves rebelled in halamshiral, she ignored it until that was no longer an option. Everyone knows she's very pro-elf and is trying to improve their conditions. Now Briala intends to start a large scale rebellion, and if anyone knows that it's her former handmaiden leading the elves, and that they have the eluvians(and apparently will be responsible for guerrilla tactics) then why aren't the nobles and their forces deserting her en-masse for gaspard? Why isn't gaspard trumpeting this news from the rooftops both to stop elves from leaving to join the rebellion(because of the knowledge that they are responsible for prolonging the war and that the major factions are aware of them) and to swell his forces by promising to stop the elven threat(and make celene look useless because she's been trying to improve the lot of traitors and rebels).