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[Vapaa]

 The elves rebelled in halamshiral, she ignored it until that was no longer an option.

 

That's false, Briala went there to kill the human lord in order to appease the elves, she marched on Halamshiral because of the play was greatly threatening her reputation and she risked to lose the support she has among the nobles. She has the support of the Marquis de Chevin, one of the most powerful nobles that rallied other nobles and whose army is actually just outside Val Royeux, she also tricked Comte Pierre into giving her Halamshiral and Lady Seryl of Jader is a die hard loyalist.

 

Celene has support, so does Gaspard, that's why sh*t hit the fan.

[Heimdall]

No, if gradually changing the society didn't work, so what else could ?


Celene literally spend 20 years trying to change Orlesian society, and all she got was public for supporting the elves...and that's because she's an oddball among Orlesian noble that actually care about the elves, if the next emperor is anything like the rest of the nobility, all of Celene's hard work would go down the drain.

It's been 700 years since the fall of the Dales, and the situation didn't improve, so what are the elves supposed to do ? wait about some more or try to make things better when they have something to make the difference ?

Gradually changing society is working, Celene has secured rights for elves to enroll in Orlais's most prestigious academic institution and lessened if not removed restrictions on elven merchants. She's even in talks with the Divine about allowing elves to enter the priesthood. She's just started to make progress, now is not the time to cast her methods aside just because Gaspard was able to use it against her.

[Vapaa]

Gradually changing society is working, Celene has secured rights for elves to enroll in Orlais's most prestigious academic institution and lessened if not removed restrictions on elven merchants. She's even in talks with the Divine about allowing elves to enter the priesthood. She's just started to make progress, now is not the time to cast her methods aside just because Gaspard was able to use it against her.

 

After twenty years of rule, and how benevolent will the next ruler be ?

 

Changing the society was sensible when there was no other solution, now the elves can have the upper hand with the eluvians.

[Mistic]

After twenty years of rule, and how benevolent will the next ruler be ?

 

Changing the society was sensible when there was no other solution, now the elves can have the upper hand with the eluvians.

 

Normally, drastic changes are easy because you have to balance the wishes of those who want them, those who don't want them and those who just don't care. We shouldn't forget that changes are already difficult today, when the state has the famous "monopoly on violence". In a feudal society were those who don't agree with you have armies of their own, it's even trickier.

 

On the bright side, Celene's reforms may be easier to implement if she wins the civil war. Because those who would oppose her should be with Gaspard. Victors in civil wars tend to have the luxury of imposing their views on the losing side.

[Heimdall]

He wants to imposed his rule via force. What do you expect?

And she fell into the trap because she never though Gaspard would use the game to manipulate her. If Braila was there she would of warned Celene. And remember Celene did promise Braila to allow her to handle Halamshiral. Celene orignal was not planning to burn Halamshiral to the ground but to later come in with her army as a show of force. She back peddled on that. So she did backpeddle.

I'm not trying to down play her efforts, I'm just pointing out that her efforts are on a tredmill. It the foundation of her reforms are not stable then they are virtually pointless. It would be like civil right laws with no group or ground to enforce them. Part of that foundation should be the treatment of the commoners by the nobility. If that is not address things can easily go back to point zero. Even if the laws are changes to make things more fair for elves, it means nothing if they are treated like crap like everyone commoner. Just focusing on the elves oversees the real issue.

Celene knew Gaspard was manipulating her, she was just unable to see it as a military situation. Politically her move was sound. She failed to understand that she would be outmaneuvered militarily. She did not backpeddle, the situation changed and she realized that the previous plan would not enough. It was enough for the rebellion to quietly vanish. By ending it decisively, she would not only silence the rebellion, but make it impossible for Gaspard to attack her by claiming she was soft on the elves ever again, he would lose support. That's not backpeddling, that's adapting.

A real issue shared by most of Thedas. Once again, it's not relevant here. The issues are both real, but not to be conflated.

[leaguer of one]

Celene knew Gaspard was manipulating her, she was just unable to see it as a military situation. Politically her move was sound. She failed to understand that she would be outmaneuvered militarily. She did not backpeddle, the situation changed and she realized that the previous plan would not enough. It was enough for the rebellion to quietly vanish. By ending it decisively, she would not only silence the rebellion, but make it impossible for Gaspard to attack her by claiming she was soft on the elves ever again, he would lose support. That's not backpeddling, that's adapting.

A real issue shared by most of Thedas. Once again, it's not relevant here. The issues are both real, but not to be conflated.

She found out when it was too late. That's my point. Of cousre she would know who was responsible when it happens. I meant with Braila there she had a chance to stop it before it happened.. The issue is that her reaction cost people their lives, the elves she was trying to up lift and the people who fallowed her. If she was about to counter Gaspard's play before it happened the rebellion would of ended on it's own.

 

And my point has a real relevance. Seriously, would thing be better if elves are treated like any other commoner human?

[Beerfish]

After twenty years of rule, and how benevolent will the next ruler be ?

 

Changing the society was sensible when there was no other solution, now the elves can have the upper hand with the eluvians.

Of they can be bombed back to the stone age so to speak when the power of orlais determines they are a real threat.  Most people would rather have a suspect lot in lfie than live than die due to some ideal of some person who has taken it upon themsleves to 'make things right'.

[LobselVith8]

Of they can be bombed back to the stone age so to speak when the power of orlais determines they are a real threat.  Most people would rather have a suspect lot in lfie than live than die due to some ideal of some person who has taken it upon themsleves to 'make things right'.

 

Gaspard and Celene might be preoccupied with the civil war, in the same way Ferelden was during the Fifth Blight; the necessity of the Inquisitor to deal with the Breach while everyone is distracted would suggest this could be the case. If Briala's faction is a group the Inquisitor can align with, then it's also possible she might be able to succeed in helping the elves of Orlais.

[leaguer of one]

Of they can be bombed back to the stone age so to speak when the power of orlais determines they are a real threat.  Most people would rather have a suspect lot in lfie than live than die due to some ideal of some person who has taken it upon themsleves to 'make things right'.

Like the elves are happy as they are now. The uprising in the book makes it clear they want change no matter how.

[Vapaa]

Of they can be bombed back to the stone age so to speak when the power of orlais determines they are a real threat.  Most people would rather have a suspect lot in lfie than live than die due to some ideal of some person who has taken it upon themsleves to 'make things right'.

 

Briala didn't invent elf rebellion, the situation is already ignited, the elves want their freedom.

 

And I want to see the power of Orlais (which one by the way ? they're already at each other throats) try to fight the elves when they have the eluvians.

[MisterJB]

And I want to see the power of Orlais (which one by the way ? they're already at each other throats) try to fight the elves when they have the eluvians.

Harvest everything, don't leave a single sack of wheat; evacuate the people(maybe only the essential ones, less mouths to feed) to the cities and purge them of elves; search everything for a possible Eluvian; wait until winter's through.

 

Your move, elves.
 

[The Baconer]

Harvest everything, don't leave a single sack of wheat; evacuate the people(maybe only the essential ones, less mouths to feed) to the cities and purge them of elves; search everything for a possible Eluvian; wait until winter's through.

 

Your move, elves.
 

 

That sounds like a disaster.

[Vapaa]

Harvest everything, don't leave a single sack of wheat; evacuate the people(maybe only the essential ones, less mouths to feed) to the cities and purge them of elves; search everything for a possible Eluvian; wait until winter's through.

 

Your move, elves.
 

 

Elves can use eluvians to go everywhere in Theadas, not just Orlais, so just make a rally point in the Free marches, and they can strike anywhere in Orlais in mere hours.

 

Also, eluvians reveal themselves if you're searching for it.

[MisterJB]

That sounds like a disaster.

Why? Not taking into consideration the possibility of an invasion by an actual power like Nevarra, what could the elves possibly do in this situation?

It cancels the Eluvian's main strength which is mobility because it presents neither easy targets nor supply lines that can be disrupted. No matter how many elves Briala managed to recruit, their chances of taking any city would be zero and the cities would outlast them since the elves would have no food.

[The Baconer]

Why? Not taking into consideration the possibility of an invasion by an actual power like Nevarra, what could the elves possibly do in this situation?

It cancels the Eluvian's main strength which is mobility because it presents neither easy targets nor supply lines that can be disrupted. No matter how many elves Briala managed to recruit, their chances of taking any city would be zero and the cities would outlast them since the elves would have no food.

 

I suppose the elves might be hard-pressed for nourishment but if they're going to be running with the Dalish (who already have their own methods for getting food, and now you've widened their viable range for hunting and gathering exponentially ) then it probably won't be as foolproof a plan as you believe. Meanwhile you've likely got massive overcrowding in the cities, ideal conditions for disease, all while letting the elves and whoever else might decide to take advantage of this situation have free reign over the countryside. You mentioned only taking the "essential people", but what does that even mean? Is there even a real plan here? And what happens to the people who get left behind? And then of course, there is the entire process the mass harvest and the transportation of everything back into the main cities, which itself would be a great opportunity for the elves to use the eluvians to cause disruption and chaos.

 

EDIT: Not to mention if their little "webways" offer protection from the elements than the elves could very well be sitting pretty for the winter while the humans in their cities fester and die off.

[Vapaa]

I suppose the elves might be hard-pressed for nourishment but if they're going to be running with the Dalish (who already have their own methods for getting food, and now you've widened their viable range for hunting and gathering exponentially ) then it probably won't be as foolproof a plan as you believe. Meanwhile you've likely got massive overcrowding in the cities, ideal conditions for disease, all while letting the elves and whoever else might decide to take advantage of this situation have free reign over the countryside. You mentioned only taking the "essential people", but what does that even mean? Is there even a real plan here? And what happens to the people who get left behind? And then of course, there is the entire process the mass harvest and the transportation of everything back into the main cities, which itself would be a great opportunity for the elves to use the eluvians to cause disruption and chaos.

 

And that's if the Orlesian nobles were not fight each each other....and they are.

[Heimdall]

Elves can use eluvians to go everywhere in Theadas, not just Orlais, so just make a rally point in the Free marches, and they can strike anywhere in Orlais in mere hours.

Also, eluvians reveal themselves if you're searching for it.

The network we know about was specified to spread throughout Orlais, whether it spreads beyond that is unknown.

[Vapaa]

The network we know about was specified to spread throughout Orlais, whether it spreads beyond that is unknown.

 

We know it spreads beyond, as it was omnious in the Elvenhan, and the Elvenhan spanned all across Theads.

[Heimdall]

We know it spreads beyond, as it was omnious in the Elvenhan, and the Elvenhan spanned all across Theads.

Yes, but we don't know if Briala has access to the ones outside Orlais

[Reznore57]

I suppose the elves might be hard-pressed for nourishment but if they're going to be running with the Dalish (who already have their own methods for getting food, and now you've widened their viable range for hunting and gathering exponentially ) then it probably won't be as foolproof a plan as you believe. Meanwhile you've likely got massive overcrowding in the cities, ideal conditions for disease, all while letting the elves and whoever else might decide to take advantage of this situation have free reign over the countryside. You mentioned only taking the "essential people", but what does that even mean? Is there even a real plan here? And what happens to the people who get left behind? And then of course, there is the entire process the mass harvest and the transportation of everything back into the main cities, which itself would be a great opportunity for the elves to use the eluvians to cause disruption and chaos.

 

EDIT: Not to mention if their little "webways" offer protection from the elements than the elves could very well be sitting pretty for the winter while the humans in their cities fester and die off.

 

The Dalish can feed their small clan , but they wouldn't be able to feed the city elves , they are mostly hunter ...They can't produce lots of food.

There's no way the whole city elf population can use the Eluvian , they are too many of them.They do not know the land much outside their alienage , they have no food , and no mean to produce some (most farms belong to humans) ,they don't know how to fight , they have no weapons.(I think they were throwing rocks or something at Halamshiral)And the Eluvian network is dangerous ...tombs , thin veil , dead ends etc...And I'm not sure they could grow food in the strange inbetween world.

All the humans have to do if the elves start causing a mess , it's simply purging the alienages.

 

The Dalish would have been a better choice , they move a lot , they have mages etc...they can hide the old and the young in the forest with a couple of hunters ...etc.

But again the only thing the elves can do is being a pain in the ass , and try to annoy humans until they are tired and willing to talk.

A real war is impossible.

[Vapaa]

Yes, but we don't know if Briala has access to the ones outside Orlais

 

The eluvians form are a unique network.

[Heimdall]

The eluvians form are a unique network.

...okay, but the network in Masked Empire was described as spanning Orlais, not Thedas.

[Beerfish]

Gaspard and Celene might be preoccupied with the civil war, in the same way Ferelden was during the Fifth Blight; the necessity of the Inquisitor to deal with the Breach while everyone is distracted would suggest this could be the case. If Briala's faction is a group the Inquisitor can align with, then it's also possible she might be able to succeed in helping the elves of Orlais.

She might but as I said in a previous post Gaspard and Celene both clearly showed they are able to put aside differences long enough to deal with a bigger picture problem.  They both also showed in the book that the welfare of O'Rlais it self trumps their own agendas.  They could just as easily say 'we'll hold off fighting each other until we take care of the bigger threat to orlais, that being the elves.'

[Beerfish]

Like the elves are happy as they are now. The uprising in the book makes it clear they want change no matter how.

You speak just like a pro mage person.  Assuming that every elf or every mage will be jumping for joy at some new found freedom when the laternative is for the powers that be come down hard on them and make things much much worse.

[Beerfish]

Briala didn't invent elf rebellion, the situation is already ignited, the elves want their freedom.

 

And I want to see the power of Orlais (which one by the way ? they're already at each other throats) try to fight the elves when they have the eluvians.

What do the eluvians so get you?  Give you great big short cuts all over the place.  You still have to organize and train some semblance of an army even a gurellia one.  Meanwhile the rulers of orlais will simply say, we are going to crack down on all city elves and any dalish.  Support will be fine for the first short while until elves are really taking it in the teeth from orlais.  Orlais has shown they will be ruthless in putting down a rebellion, even an 'elf lover' like celene.