1058 réponses à ce sujet

[Vapaa]

...okay, but the network in Masked Empire was described as spanning Orlais, not Thedas.

 

It was described to span across the whole ofg the Elvenhan, and the Elvenhan was not limited to what is actually Orlais; its former capital was situated in what is now the Tevinter imperium.

 

What do the eluvians so gor you?  Give you great big short cuts all over the place.  You still have to organize and train some semblance of an army even a gurellia one.

 

The Dalish, they are the perfect candidates for hit and run attacks.

 

Meanwhile the rulers of orlais will simply say, we are going to crack down on all city elves and any dalish.  Support will be fine for the first short while until elves are really taking it in the teeth from orlais.  Orlais has shown they will be ruthless in putting down a rebellion, even an 'elf lover' like celene.

 

Good luck about that, it's the civil war, the nobles are fighting each other. What was the first thing Celene did after exiting the eluvian world ? Set a plan to crush the elves ? no, she claimed Halamshiral back and was ready the go all out against Gaspard's faction...and that also holds true for Gaspard.

[The Baconer]

The Dalish can feed their small clan , but they wouldn't be able to feed the city elves , they are mostly hunter ...They can't produce lots of food.

There's no way the whole city elf population can use the Eluvian , they are too many of them.They do not know the land much outside their alienage , they have no food , and no mean to produce some (most farms belong to humans) ,they don't know how to fight , they have no weapons.(I think they were throwing rocks or something at Halamshiral)And the Eluvian network is dangerous ...tombs , thin veil , dead ends etc...And I'm not sure they could grow food in the strange inbetween world.

All the humans have to do if the elves start causing a mess , it's simply purging the alienages.

 

I know that they probably won't be able to sustain both their own communities and all of the city elves, but given that their potential range for hunting, fishing etc. would be essentially all of Orlais, while before they were limited by human presence. And if the webways (the "inbetween worlds") do actually offer shelter, then that means they don't have to deal with dropping temperatures, and they don't have to spend the energy they normally would finding ways to keep warm. They certainly wouldn't be put down in a single winter.

 

I'm not arguing for the elves being able to wage war effectively, I'm only saying that MisterJB's hypothetical plan would actually end much, much worse for the humans than it would for the elves.

[Heimdall]

It was described to span across the whole ofg the Elvenhan, and the Elvenhan was not limited to what is actually Orlais; its former capital was situated in what is now the Tevinter imperium.

And that doesn't mean Briala can access the entire network. Like I said, the Masked Empire described the network Briala controlled to span Orlais, not Thedas.

[Vapaa]

And that doesn't mean Briala can access the entire network. Like I said, the Masked Empire described the network Briala controlled to span Orlais, not Thedas.

 

Who described it ?

[Beerfish]

It was described to span across the whole ofg the Elvenhan, and the Elvenhan was not limited to what is actually Orlais; its former capital was situated in what is now the Tevinter imperium.

 

 

The Dalish, they are the perfect candidates for hit and run attacks.

 

So the dalish are going to quickly get in line to help the city elves who they consider one step from shemlen at the risk of themslelves without another thought?  The dalish clans are no more cooperative than the the orlais nobles a lot of the time.

 

 

Good luck about that, it's the civil war, the nobles are fighting each other. What was the first thing Celene did after exiting the eluvian world ? Set a plan to crush the elves ? no, she claimed Halamshiral back and was ready the go all out against Gaspard's faction...and that also holds true for Gaspard.

 

Celene and Gaspard both immediately put their differneces aside when in the eluvian network for the common good.  If they perceive that the elves are bigger threat they will set aside differences until the common threat is gone and then they will go back to be at each oithers throats.

[Heimdall]

Who described it ?

Felassan, I believe.

[polemists02]

I just don't see dalish and city elves working together. I mean I think city elves would love it but dalish seem to hate them and have no intention of ever helping them. That was pretty clearly established in the book.

City elves alone. You could get a elite group trained and so hit and strike runs but from sounds of things she mentioned using it for supplies and messengers.

Either way I am fairly sure all four factions. Dalish, Celine, Gaspard and city elves will want the inquisitor on their side. All these factions could use additional armies to make plans work.

Personally I look forward to meeting gespard,bralia, and Celine, in game.

[LobselVith8]

So the dalish are going to quickly get in line to help the city elves who they consider one step from shemlen at the risk of themslelves without another thought?  The dalish clans are no more cooperative than the the orlais nobles a lot of the time.

 

Zathrian killed the bandits who had Lanaya enslaved, and brought her to the clan. The same clan rescued a young Aneirin when he was left for dead. Pol was welcomed into the Sabrae clan. Ariane's clan welcomed an elven mage from the Circle. Aside from Clan Virnehn, the Dalish have shown a willingness to lend aid to Andrastian elves, and even welcome them to their community. One of their primary historians, and their hahren, talk about wanting to include the city elves into an independent kingdom, and Paivel talks about how the Dalish and the city elves can learn from one another.

 

Celene and Gaspard both immediately put their differneces aside when in the eluvian network for the common good.  If they perceive that the elves are bigger threat they will set aside differences until the common threat is gone and then they will go back to be at each oithers throats.

 

If that was the case, wouldn't Celene and Gaspard put aside their differences because of the Breach?

[Dermain]

Zathrian killed the bandits who had Lanaya enslaved, and brought her to the clan. The same clan rescued a young Aneirin when he was left for dead. Pol was welcomed into the Sabrae clan. Ariane's clan welcomed an elven mage from the Circle. Aside from Clan Virnehn, the Dalish have shown a willingness to lend aid to Andrastian elves, and even welcome them to their community. One of their primary historians, and their hahren, talk about wanting to include the city elves into an independent kingdom, and Paivel talks about how the Dalish and the city elves can learn from one another.

 

The main problem with using those as examples of the Dalish wanting to help city elves is that in all of these cases they are helping a single city elf. They have never tried to "liberate" an alienage, and I doubt they would willingly decide to help ALL of the elves in Orlais at once.

[LobselVith8]

I just don't see dalish and city elves working together. I mean I think city elves would love it but dalish seem to hate them and have no intention of ever helping them. That was pretty clearly established in the book.

 

Clan Virnehn is an atypical clan, and they don't even adhere to the tradition of avoiding magic that involves spirits. I don't see why anyone would think Clan Virnehn represents most or all of the Dalish.

 

City elves alone. You could get a elite group trained and so hit and strike runs but from sounds of things she mentioned using it for supplies and messengers.

 

If Briala could reach out to the Night Elves who fought during the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden, they could help train the Orlesian elves.

 

Either way I am fairly sure all four factions. Dalish, Celine, Gaspard and city elves will want the inquisitor on their side. All these factions could use additional armies to make plans work.

Personally I look forward to meeting gespard,bralia, and Celine, in game.

 

I certainly hope the player has agency in siding with, and dealing with, these factions. I'd really like to meet Briala, and help the elves gain their freedom.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Zathrian killed the bandits who had Lanaya enslaved, and brought her to the clan. The same clan rescued a young Aneirin when he was left for dead. Pol was welcomed into the Sabrae clan. Ariane's clan welcomed an elven mage from the Circle. Aside from Clan Virnehn, the Dalish have shown a willingness to lend aid to Andrastian elves, and even welcome them to their community. One of their primary historians, and their hahren, talk about wanting to include the city elves into an independent kingdom, and Paivel talks about how the Dalish and the city elves can learn from one another.

The problem is that either it was coincidental(Lanaya) or they helped City Elves who wanted to become Dalish(Pol, Aneirin). There is really no evidence that they want to help elves who have no desire to be Dalish. 

[LobselVith8]

The main problem with using those as examples of the Dalish wanting to help city elves is that in all of these cases they are helping a single city elf. They have never tried to "liberate" an alienage, and I doubt they would willingly decide to help ALL of the elves in Orlais at once.

 

I'd say their willingness to help Aneirin, who they found wounded and in need, shows that not every Dalish lacks the compassion that the Keeper and warleader of Clan Virnehn. We're also not aware of an Alienage who ever requested their assistance in the past, and given the willingness of some clans to provide sanctuary and shelter to elves in need, I think it's plausible some clans would have provided aid. Of course, I don't imagine a clan would try to "liberate" an Alienage without a request for help being made, especially when not everyone in an Alienage looks positively upon the Dalish; some of them denigrate them as savages, after all. The Dalish way of life isn't an easy one, and it's completely optional; you can leave if you want, but they welcome those who want to join.

 

That said, with the Orlesian civil war raging on, I wouldn't be surprised if some elves took this opportunity to try to reclaim control of the Dales from Orlais. After the massacre of Halamshiral, I'm sure some elves want to see the region freed from human rule.

[Vapaa]

Felassan, I believe.

Where ? I don't see it.

 

On the other hand, on page 361 we can read "the eluvians were hers now, all of them"

 

 

So the dalish are going to quickly get in line to help the city elves who they consider one step from shemlen at the risk of themslelves without another thought?  The dalish clans are no more cooperative than the the orlais nobles a lot of the time.

 

I wouldn't worry about that, when Briala is in control of the most iconic, powerful and valuable magitech of the elven people, and the Dalisgh are nothing if not suckers for this sort of thing.

 

 

Celene and Gaspard both immediately put their differneces aside when in the eluvian network for the common good.  If they perceive that the elves are bigger threat they will set aside differences until the common threat is gone and then they will go back to be at each oithers throats.

 

Will they really ? because when the walked out of the eluvians they sure were more concerned with the civil war.

 

I personally think the situation will evole to a three-way standoff and the Inquisition will be the key force in the conflit, like Shepard in the Quarian/Geth conflict.

[Mistic]

The problem is that either it was coincidental(Lanaya) or they helped City Elves who wanted to become Dalish(Pol, Aneirin). There is really no evidence that they want to help elves who have no desire to be Dalish. 

 

Well, Aneirin enjoyed a great deal of freedom to live by his own, but he also had the Dalish tattoos and followed the elven gods, so yeah, what you say still applies.

 

The problem with Dalish relationships with their city brethren, even in the most positive cases, is that they expect that they would want to be like them. The idea that maybe the City Elves would be happy with being Andrastian and having more human customs, yet still consider themselves true Elvhen, seems unthinkable to the Dalish.

 

I wouldn't worry about that, when Briala is in control of the most iconic, powerful and valuable magitech of the elven people, and the Dalisgh are nothing if not suckers for this sort of thing.

 

Or the Dalish could be angry because a City Elf not only did steal years of effort made by a Dalish Clan when claiming the Eluvians "for the elves of Orlais", but was also an accomplice in the total destruction of said clan.

[polemists02]

Good points but thinking back to Merrill in DA 2. Maybe a bad example but, clearly she cared that her people were reduced to a alienage. She kept fooling with the mirror tho rather then say help her people get equality.

On a side notes and I have tried to read most posts here. In DA 1 if you did the dalish origin didn't Duncan mention just touching the mirror tainted you? I thought all the mirrors were tainted. How could a single mirror be tainted?

[Mistic]

On a side notes and I have tried to read most posts here. In DA 1 if you did the dalish origin didn't Duncan mention just touching the mirror tainted you? I thought all the mirrors were tainted. How could a single mirror be tainted?

 

Apparently, the Eluvian network is created by linking mirror A to mirror B, with some places that serve as breathing rooms and then a central chamber from which you can take the path you need. A possible explanation would be that the mirror in the Dalish origin was connected to another mirror placed in the Darkspawn-infested Deep Roads (remember that it wasn't just the Taint; after the activation, darkspawn started appearing in the ruins).

 

And now that I think about it, it means that Merrill's efforts were doomed form the start. As we discovered in TME, each eluvian is linked to another eluvian. So either Merrill's mirror would be connected to the Darkspawn mirror, or it would be connected to a minor chamber which wasn't purified yet.

[Vapaa]

 

Or the Dalish could be angry because a City Elf not only did steal years of effort made by a Dalish Clan when claiming the Eluvians "for the elves of Orlais", but was also an accomplice in the total destruction of said clan.

 

The Dalish stance concerning the city elves varies from clan to clan, but the fascination for the elves's lost lore is a constant.

 

And a pragmatic mind, which is often a trait of the Dalish, would argue that the destruction of a clan is a price worth paid for the reactivation of the eluvian network.

[Mistic]

The Dalish stance concerning the city elves varies from clan to clan, but the fascination for the elves's lost lore is a constant.

 

And a pragmatic mind, which is often a trait of the Dalish, would argue that the destruction of a clan is a price worth paid for the reactivation of the eluvian network.

 

I don't doubt that. What I'm trying to say is that they could demand to be in control of the Eluvians, instead of Briala. As you say, lost lore is serious business for them, so maybe they wouldn't be very happy with a "traitorous human-loving flat-ear" having the control of one of the most powerful artifacts of the ancient elven civilization. "We are the last of the Elvhenan" and all that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

One of the things that I think people tend to overlook with the whole "Dalish elves care nothing for the City Elves" angle is that there's more than just sentiment that's a factor at play here.

 

The fact is, regardless of how many Dalish consider them to be "true elves" or not, City Elves are, in fact, simply not their people in practice. They have little to no influence over what happens to them whether they actually like them or not. City Elves are subjects of human nations and the Dalish clans are independent so Their societies are separated and rarely even have the chance to interact. For the Dalish to have any ability to help the City Elves in any significant way, they'd have to be actively challenging humanity on a much greater scale and they have neither the means nor the desire to do so. And if they did, the war and death that would come with fighting humans would bring with a lot of other problems and criticism.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

Celene and Gaspard both immediately put their differneces aside when in the eluvian network for the common good.  If they perceive that the elves are bigger threat they will set aside differences until the common threat is gone and then they will go back to be at each oithers throats.

For the last time. It was not Celene and Gaspard. It was Gaspard only. Celene was look for ways to off Gaspard, even during the fights and only did not because of the magic users on his side. Gaspard was the only one that was willing to keep his word and that was only because he wanted to increase his chances to escape the eluvians. They never stopped fighting because of a common good. It was to escape the eluvians in which Gaspard never tried to betray anyone.

[leaguer of one]

The main problem with using those as examples of the Dalish wanting to help city elves is that in all of these cases they are helping a single city elf. They have never tried to "liberate" an alienage, and I doubt they would willingly decide to help ALL of the elves in Orlais at once.

Added every clan is different.

[leaguer of one]

Yes, but we don't know if Briala has access to the ones outside Orlais

If she explore long enough.

[Vapaa]

I don't doubt that. What I'm trying to say is that they could demand to be in control of the Eluvians, instead of Briala. As you say, lost lore is serious business for them, so maybe they wouldn't be very happy with a "traitorous human-loving flat-ear" having the control of one of the most powerful artifacts of the ancient elven civilization. "We are the last of the Elvhenan" and all that.

 

In that case Brial can just leave and find a more agreeble clan, but like a said the Dalish are pragmatic, in DAO it didn't matter if your were a CE or even huma, they welcomed your help and were grateful, it's just unlike them to turn their back on help, let alone the key to recover their lost nation.

[polemists02]

Yes it is the key but if you recall the one dalih mentions to Bralila that if she have it to dalish they might help and briala just laughs at her. I think the key is Brialia herself wants nothing to do with the dalish. She even mentions as much. So unless the player convince her or someone steals the key I am fairly certain bralia won't turn to dalish for anything.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yes it is the key but if you recall the one dalih mentions to Bralila that if she have it to dalish they might help and briala just laughs at her. I think the key is Brialia herself wants nothing to do with the dalish. She even mentions as much. So unless the player convince her or someone steals the key I am fairly certain bralia won't turn to dalish for anything.

 

That very same scene in the book features Briala telling Mihris to tell the other clans she's willing to work with them but only if they are willing to help her pan elven goals.