1058 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

1) No, but I will condemn the Dalish for offering the exact same situation as the humans. Both humans and Dalish require elves to live either their way, as in assimilate to their culture regardless of your feelings on it, or the highway, as in leave and good luck being a solitary elf in Thedas.

 

It's not the same situation: the Dalish don't conduct purges en mass on elven populations, so I don't see the two as equivalent to one another. The Dalish refused to submit to human rule and managed to elude the Chantry forces, living on their own and staying true to their way of life.

 

2) You keep avoiding my point. If Aneirin didn't want to convert, would the Dalish have still let him live with them for as long as he did? The answer is no. 

 

Your point was that the Dalish saved Aneirin's life because he wanted to join the Dalish, but that wasn't the case.

 

3) Again, you avoid my point. The Dalish see themselves as the 'true elves' and the City Elves as akin to lost children when this is not the case. 

 

You're conflating the view of some with all, and it's also true that some Alienage elves see themselves in a similar fashion, as view those who try to live outside the walls of the Alienage as people who throw away "being elven". As hahren Sarethia wrote, "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere."

 

4) I'm not saying it didn't. But the Dalish were far from blameless in the rising tension by doing things like watching a country suffer the Blight for almost a century and religious censorship.

 

It's not religious censorship to refuse to convert to the Andrastian Chantry.

 

5) Some Dalish view the City Elves as traitors to their race. Treason is punishable by death. 

 

As do some Andrastian elves towards those who leave the Alienage. Are you suggesting the Alienage elves execute those elves who try to come back?

[Heimdall]

Marethari says it even when Merrill isn't present, so I have a difficult time buying into the idea it's for Merrill's benefit alone when Merrill isn't required to be present for the Keeper to say that; in fact, the Keeper tells Merrill directly that she can come back at any time in her own personal quest. You also seem to be criticizing the Dalish about Zevran's mother, despite the omission of quite a bit of information; she left the clan to be with someone she loved, but things went bad. Unfortunately.

No, but she does say it in the presence of her known friend and the one that brought her away from the Dalish in the first place: Hawke. Like I said, Marethari's personal feelings and the inherent value of a First make the situation more complicated. My point here is that the Dalish aren't a fan of people leaving the clan, especially by choosing to live amongst humans as they look down on the ancestor's of the City Elves for doing.

[LobselVith8]

No, but she does say it in the presence of her known friend and the one that brought her away from the Dalish in the first place: Hawke. Like I said, Marethari's personal feelings and the inherent value of a First make the situation more complicated. My point here is that the Dalish aren't a fan of people leaving the clan, especially by choosing to live amongst humans as they look down on the ancestor's of the City Elves for doing.

 

Marethari never shied away from the fact that Merrill could come back to the clan whenever she wished, so I'm not buying the idea that Marethari only said it for Merrill's benefit. And my point was that the Dalish didn't prohibit anyone from leaving the clan, not how some felt about the departure of one of their own.

[Heimdall]

Marethari never shied away from the fact that Merrill could come back to the clan whenever she wished, so I'm not buying the idea that Marethari only said it for Merrill's benefit. And my point was that the Dalish didn't prohibit anyone from leaving the clan, not how some felt about the departure of one of their own.

Pretty much everything she said and did during DA2 was directed towards getting Merrill to give up her project with the Eluvian and return to the clan. I know what your point is, I'm not arguing against it.

[LobselVith8]

..... Oh, so that's why its a bad idea to have Merrill keep the mirror. There's now a darkspawn invasion gateway waiting to happen in Merrill's room in Kirkwall's alienage. Great.

 

It's an inert Eluvian that's either abandoned by Merrill (in Friendship) or destroyed (in Rivalry); I'm not seeing any danger posed by it when the only person who was capable of getting it working isn't interested in that path once the Keeper dies. We also don't know where the Eluvian that Merrill was constructing would have really lead to (aside from idle speculation), and it's possible to use the mirror for distant communication without activating it as a gateway.

 

Even the Magisters of the Imperium couldn't activate the full power of the original Eluvians after they sacked and destroyed Arlathan, so without Merrill's assistance, I'm doubtful anyone else is capable of completing it. Even Morrigan required a Dalish tome to activate the Eluvian of the Dragonbone Wastes, and I don't see the clans lending any assistance on the matter, especially if it's in the hands of the Chantry or the templars.

 

"I lover her too much to let her keep it."

-Allesso Hawke

 

My Hawke was human, so he didn't pretend to know anything about elven culture or technology. Merrill was the one who actually committed herself to researching their lore, after all, so he wasn't going to dispute her stance when speaking from a place of complete ignorance.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's not the same situation: the Dalish don't conduct purges en mass on elven populations, so I don't see the two as equivalent to one another. The Dalish refused to submit to human rule and managed to elude the Chantry forces, living on their own and staying true to their way of life.

 

 

Your point was that the Dalish saved Aneirin's life because he wanted to join the Dalish, but that wasn't the case.

 

 

You're conflating the view of some with all, and it's also true that some Alienage elves see themselves in a similar fashion, as view those who try to live outside the walls of the Alienage as people who throw away "being elven". As hahren Sarethia wrote, "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere."

 

 

It's not religious censorship to refuse to convert to the Andrastian Chantry.

 

 

As do some Andrastian elves towards those who leave the Alienage. Are you suggesting the Alienage elves execute those elves who try to come back?

1) The Dalish don't have the power to do that. Back in the days they had a nation, they were no better than Orlais in subjugating other elves. And since they want to reclaim that 'glory', I'm right to be concerned. 

 

2) No, my point was that they let Aneirin stay with them because he wanted to be Dalish.

 

3) From the wiki:

The Dalish elves and city elves in particular have a strange and bitter relationship, dating from the splitting of the People after the fall of the Dales. Dalish tend to view their city brethren suspiciously and with pity as "flat-ears,"^[17] virtually humans in elven skin who are "little better than their shemlen masters."^[19] They are seen as having given up on and forgotten their culture, and will need to be reminded of their past when a new homeland is founded.^[20]

So no, I am not. 

 

4) It is religious censorship to kick missionaries out of a nation. They are not allowing the Chantry to practice their faith of spreading the Chant to those who want to hear it. Why does the government of the Dales get to decide that not a single elf in their nation might be interested in hearing it. Frankly, that makes them no better than the censorship of the Dalish beliefs now. 

 

5) Wouldn't be surprised if a few have over the centuries of the Alienages' existence. Again, worst case scenario. 

[LobselVith8]

1) The Dalish don't have the power to do that. Back in the days they had a nation, they were no better than Orlais in subjugating other elves. And since they want to reclaim that 'glory', I'm right to be concerned. 

 

Felassan compares Arlathan to Orlais. The Dalish are the remnants of the Dales, not Arlathan.

 

3) From the wiki:

The Dalish elves and city elves in particular have a strange and bitter relationship, dating from the splitting of the People after the fall of the Dales. Dalish tend to view their city brethren suspiciously and with pity as "flat-ears,"^[17] virtually humans in elven skin who are "little better than their shemlen masters."^[19] They are seen as having given up on and forgotten their culture, and will need to be reminded of their past when a new homeland is founded.^[20]

So no, I am not. 

 

Citation 17 (that references the term "flat ears") is actually a link to the Alienage Culture codex, where it's addressed the city elves view the elves who try to live outside the Alienage as "flat ears"; it's the entry written by Sarethia, hahren of the Highever alienage. Citation 19 references Mithra's dialogue if The Warden is obtuse about their reason for being so close to camp with an armed entourage. Citation 20 addresses Gisharel talking about what he says when children ask why some elves live in the Alienages, and it expresses his view on the matter, not the entirety of the Dalish people.

 

4) It is religious censorship to kick missionaries out of a nation. They are not allowing the Chantry to practice their faith of spreading the Chant to those who want to hear it. Why does the government of the Dales get to decide that not a single elf in their nation might be interested in hearing it. Frankly, that makes them no better than the censorship of the Dalish beliefs now. 

 

The elves were kicking out missionaries from a neighboring empire that was created by conquering the rest of their neighbors to establish a society under the worship of the Maker, and a society who had missionaries as a result of Drakon's inability to conquer the Free Marches due to his difficulties with the Dales. As Brother Genitivi wrote, "Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will."

 

Sarethia of the Highever Alienage also addressed the issue that was caused by the elves following a different religion when he wrote, "But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors' worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit."

[Heimdall]

The elves were kicking out missionaries from a neighboring empire that was created by conquering the rest of their neighbors to establish a society under the worship of the Maker, and a society who had missionaries as a result of Drakon's inability to conquer the Free Marches due to his difficulties with the Dales. As Brother Genitivi wrote, "Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will."

...And kicking them out is still religious censorship.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Felassan compares Arlathan to Orlais. The Dalish are the remnants of the Dales, not Arlathan.

 

 

Citation 17 (that references the term "flat ears") is actually a link to the Alienage Culture codex, where it's addressed the city elves view the elves who try to live outside the Alienage as "flat ears"; it's the entry written by Sarethia, hahren of the Highever alienage. Citation 19 references Mithra's dialogue if The Warden is obtuse about their reason for being so close to camp with an armed entourage. Citation 20 addresses Gisharel talking about what he says when children ask why some elves live in the Alienages, and it expresses his view on the matter, not the entirety of the Dalish people.

 

 

The elves were kicking out missionaries from a neighboring empire that was created by conquering the rest of their neighbors to establish a society under the worship of the Maker, and a society who had missionaries as a result of Drakon's inability to conquer the Free Marches due to his difficulties with the Dales. As Brother Genitivi wrote, "Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will."

 

Sarethia of the Highever Alienage also addressed the issue that was caused by the elves following a different religion when he wrote, "But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors' worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit."

The Dalish are the remnants of the Dales, which was the remnant of Arlathan.

 

Well, there was no removing it from the wiki which they do with inaccurate information. You know that a Dalish's opinion can be the culture's opinion and the person is just a conduit for us the player to learn it, right? 

 

None of what you said disproves that what the Dales did was religious censorship. Whatever their reasons, that is what they did. 

[Heimdall]

The Dalish are the remnants of the Dales, which was the remnant of Arlathan.

Well, technically speaking it wasn't, it was built by former slaves with whatever slivers of pre-Tevinter elven culture they could find. They did hold Arlathan as their model though.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, technically speaking it wasn't, it was built by former slaves with whatever slivers of pre-Tevinter elven culture they could find. They did hold Arlathan as their model though.

That's what I mean. After a millenium of enslavement, the elves tried to rebuilt an Arlathan society. The Dales was the result. 

[Mistic]

That's what I mean. After a millenium of enslavement, the elves tried to rebuilt an Arlathan society. The Dales was the result. 

 

After a millenium of enslavement, they didn't know almost anything about their golden past and they probably invented a lot of things. Even the Dalish admit their shortcomings in lore matters. It's Felassan's advanced knowledge that would have given him away if Briala hadn't guessed before that he wasn't a real Dalish.

 

A good real life example would be Sarmatism, a cultural movement in the Polish-Lituanian Commonwealth. The nobles thought they descended from the ancient Sarmatians (a nomad tribe similar to the Scythians, who fought against the Romans several times and were famous for having warrior women). They idealized that supposed golden past, despite not having a good idea of what real Sarmatians were like, and built a unique culture, lifestyle and values out of it.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish are the remnants of the Dales, which was the remnant of Arlathan.

Of Tevinter slaves who has kept scraps of information written down, according to the developers. It's not a replica of the ancient kingdom of Arlathan; the independent Dales was an oligarchy. Claiming that the Dales is basically Arlathan is disingenuous.

Well, there was no removing it from the wiki which they do with inaccurate information. You know that a Dalish's opinion can be the culture's opinion and the person is just a conduit for us the player to learn it, right?

It's a wikipedia that's written and edited by fans, which means it isn't a perfect source of information. Also, the view of some Dalish isn't the view of most or all the Dalish. We can't properly gauge how most Dalish view the Andrastian elves any more than we can assess how many city elves denigrate the elves who try to live with humans, and who dismiss the Dalish as savages.

None of what you said disproves that what the Dales did was religious censorship. Whatever their reasons, that is what they did.

No different than the Andrastian kingdoms not wanting to convert to the Qun, which can also be argued to be religious censorship. Especially a religion that views elves and other non-humans as being "further from the Maker".

[Heimdall]

No different than the Andrastian kingdoms not wanting to convert to the Qun, which can also be argued to be religious censorship. Especially a religion that views elves and other non-humans as being "further from the Maker".

Defending yourself from an armed invasion hellbent on overturning your social order is not the same as kicking out missionaries.  Though the purges of humans and elves that did convert was certainly religious censorship.  It's a strike against your prior argument that the Dalish are looking for religious freedom.  They don't believe Andrastrianism has a place in an elven state.

[Mistic]

I was going to say that we can all agree that religious freedom doesn't exist in Thedas, but then I remembered that there's one organization that allows it: the Grey Wardens.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I was going to say that we can all agree that religious freedom doesn't exist in Thedas, but then I remembered that there's one organization that allows it: the Grey Wardens.

And soon the Inquisition.

[LobselVith8]

Defending yourself from an armed invasion hellbent on overturning your social order is not the same as kicking out missionaries. Though the purges of humans and elves that did convert was certainly religious censorship. It's a strike against your prior argument that the Dalish are looking for religious freedom. They don't believe Andrastrianism has a place in an elven state.

The Dalish historical version says they were invaded because they wouldn't convert, so the comparison may be apt. And refusing to submit to a human religion that views them as lesser than humans doesn't sway me in the slightest.

[Heimdall]

The Dalish historical version says they were invaded because they wouldn't convert, so the comparison may be apt. And refusing to submit to a human religion that views them as lesser than humans doesn't sway me in the slightest.

The Dalish version also says they threw out the missionaries before any armed conflict arose, so no, it distinctly is not.  No one's saying they should submit or convert, only let the missionaries say what they came to say and let individual elves reject them (or not) as they see fit.  At least, if there was any veracity to the idea that the Dalish are looking for religious freedom.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Dalish historical version says they were invaded because they wouldn't convert, so the comparison may be apt. And refusing to submit to a human religion that views them as lesser than humans doesn't sway me in the slightest.

Yeah, after they kicked the missionaries out. 

 

Um, the Chantry doesn't view Elves as lesser than humans. Elves are allowed to become priests/priestesses and even Templars.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish version also says they threw out the missionaries before any armed conflict arose, so no, it distinctly is not. No one's saying they should submit or convert, only let the missionaries say what they came to say and let individual elves reject them (or not) as they see fit. At least, if there was any veracity to the idea that the Dalish are looking for religious freedom.

Invading a nation to force the inhabitants to convert to your religion (which, in the Dalish version, was the inception of the war) is distinctly is similar to the Qunari wanting to impose their philosophy on others.

[Heimdall]

Um, the Chantry doesn't view Elves as lesser than humans. Elves are allowed to become priests/priestesses and even Templars.

Actually they aren't apparently allowed to join the priesthood, though Celene was in talks to change that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Actually they aren't apparently allowed to join the priesthood, though Celene was in talks to change that.

That elf you save in Sebastian's Act 2 quest becomes a Sister though. 

[Heimdall]

Invading a nation to force the inhabitants to convert to your religion (which, in the Dalish version, was the inception of the war) is distinctly is similar to the Qunari wanting to impose their philosophy on others.

Yes, but kicking out the missionaries beforehand was not (Which prompted the aforementioned invasion) , and an act of religious censorship (Nobody's saying the Chantry is innocent of such censorship, we're just saying the Dalish aren't that different)

[LobselVith8]

Yeah, after they kicked the missionaries out.

That's not justification for invasion.

Um, the Chantry doesn't view Elves as lesser than humans. Elves are allowed to become priests/priestesses and even Templars.

The discussion between Celene and Leliana (where the Empress comments on how the Divine won't say the elves are also worthy of the Maker) would suggest the Chantry does.

[Heimdall]

That elf you save in Sebastian's Act 2 quest becomes a Sister though. 

Hm, maybe they can become brothers/sisters (Like human men can) but but not revered mothers and grand clerics?