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[Mistic]

And soon the Inquisition.

 

I hope so. Since the beginning, I've been getting the feeling that the Inquisition would be an equivalent of the Grey Wardens, but about supernatural problems. Maker/Creators/Stone know that Thedas needs one.

 

Still, Thedas may have salvation after all. At least they get that an organization whose goal is to save the world shouldn't discriminate. That's much, much more that what can be said of the rest of the continent.

 

The Dalish historical version says they were invaded because they wouldn't convert, so the comparison may be apt. And refusing to submit to a human religion that views them as lesser than humans doesn't sway me in the slightest.

 

The Dalish historical version also says that they kicked out the missionaries before any harm was done. So yeah, a proof of lack of religious freedom. That other countries do the same doesn't speak well of the Dalish, but ill of everyone.

 

Also, the Chantry doesn't view other races as lesser than humans. In fact, Leliana herself says in TME that the official stance is that "elves are the children of the Maker, just as we are, and just as deserving of His grace". When it's said that elves and dwarves have turned even further from the Maker than humanity is because most of them followed pagan religions even after Andraste brought "the true faith", so they need "saving". Another thing is the racism that exists in every society in Thedas... except Qunari and Grey Wardens.

 

That's not justification for invasion.

 

True, but we were talking about religious freedom and the Dalish, not if the war was just or not.

 

The discussion between Celene and Leliana (where the Empress comments on how the Divine won't say the elves are also worthy of the Maker) would suggest the Chantry does.

 

The institution does. The religion itself, as I just pointed out, not.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's not justification for invasion.


The discussion between Celene and Leliana (where the Empress comments on how the Divine won't say the elves are also worthy of the Maker) would suggest the Chantry does.

True. Cutting a swath of death and destruction through Orlais, who had nothing to do with the Chantry other than they believed in the religion, is however.

But this is about religious censorship, which the Dales did. So why should I expect the Dalish won't follow suit in their new nation if they are in charge? 

 

And as I said, they are allowed to at least become Sisters and Templars. And give them the same rites such as weddings. Why would they do that if the religion sees them as lesser? People in the religion might, but the religion itself no. 

 

 

Hm, maybe they can become brothers/sisters (Like human men can) but but not revered mothers and grand clerics?

Possibly. Still between that and letting them become Templars the Chantry is ironically one of the nicest organizations to the elves. 

[Heimdall]

Possibly. Still between that and letting them become Templars the Chantry is ironically one of the nicest organizations to the elves. 

There are elf Templars?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There are elf Templars?

Yep. They are rare, but they do exist. In fact, Evangeline was at one time going to be written as an elf. 

[Mistic]

Possibly. Still between that and letting them become Templars the Chantry is ironically one of the nicest organizations to the elves. 

 

Well, "nicest" would be debatable. Grey Wardens and Qunari are actually nicer to elves than them so far. The Chantry could have done much more at this point.

[Heimdall]

Yep. They are rare, but they do exist. In fact, Evangeline was at one time going to be written as an elf. 

Oh, well, score one point for Chantry inclusiveness. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, "nicest" would be debatable. Grey Wardens and Qunari are actually nicer to elves than them so far. The Chantry could have done much more at this point.

I said one of the nicest, not nicest. They are in third place.

[Mistic]

I said one of the nicest, not nicest. They are in third place.

 

Not even that. The Circles allow elves to reach the top of the top. Orsino was First Enchanter in Kirkwall, and Fiona is the Grand Enchanter of all Circles. Then if you count purely elven organizations such as the Dalish themselves, it's hard for the Chantry to be even in the top 5.

 

And then there's the Inquisition. But we shall see

[LobselVith8]

I hope so. Since the beginning, I've been getting the feeling that the Inquisition would be an equivalent of the Grey Wardens, but about supernatural problems. Maker/Creators/Stone know that Thedas needs one.

Still, Thedas may have salvation after all. At least they get that an organization whose goal is to save the world shouldn't discriminate. That's much, much more that what can be said of the rest of the continent.

I guess having a non-Andrastian at the helm could help contribute to that, in runs where the Inquisitor isn't a human noble. It might be something of an adjustment for some Andrastian soldiers in the proto-Inquisition.

The Dalish historical version also says that they kicked out the missionaries before any harm was done. So yeah, a proof of lack of religious freedom. That other countries do the same doesn't speak well of the Dalish, but ill of everyone.

Also, the Chantry doesn't view other races as lesser than humans. In fact, Leliana herself says in TME that the official stance is that "elves are the children of the Maker, just as we are, and just as deserving of His grace". When it's said that elves and dwarves have turned even further from the Maker than humanity is because most of them followed pagan religions even after Andraste brought "the true faith", so they need "saving". Another thing is the racism that exists in every society in Thedas... except Qunari and Grey Wardens.

Leliana certainly says that in private to the Empress, and Celene points out the Divine won't publicly say that.

True, but we were talking about religious freedom and the Dalish, not if the war was just or not.

Conversations shift, especially on BSN, as you can tell. It's not something that we'll know with any certainty for the time being, until the time an independent elven homeland is an optional path to pursue; hopefully, Inquisition will provide that option with the Dales.

[Heimdall]

Conversations shift, especially on BSN, as you can tell. It's not something that we'll know with any certainty for the time being, until the time an independent elven homeland is an optional path to pursue; hopefully, Inquisition will provide that option with the Dales.

Nobody else has brought that up though, you did when nobody else was talking about kicking the missionaries out in relation to the war's causes.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Not even that. The Circles allow elves to reach the top of the top. Orsino was First Enchanter in Kirkwall, and Fiona is the Grand Enchanter of all Circles. Then if you count purely elven organizations such as the Dalish themselves, it's hard for the Chantry to be even in the top 5.

 

And then there's the Inquisition. But we shall see

I was actually considering the Circles as part of the Chantry since they are, well were, connected but I digress. I don't count Elven-run organizations since they would obviously be in first then.

 

As for Inquisition, well supposedly the player can be Anti-Elf as easily as Pro-Elf so...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Oh, well, score one point for Chantry inclusiveness. 

Why a  face? 

[Heimdall]

Why a  face? 

Well, its sort of a drop in the bucket, isn't it?

[Heimdall]

Not even that. The Circles allow elves to reach the top of the top. Orsino was First Enchanter in Kirkwall, and Fiona is the Grand Enchanter of all Circles. Then if you count purely elven organizations such as the Dalish themselves, it's hard for the Chantry to be even in the top 5.

 

And then there's the Inquisition. But we shall see

Well, the elven only organizations don't get any points for inclusiveness, they'd have to have humans for that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, its sort of a drop in the bucket, isn't it?

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. And in their defense, that's a pretty big first step. 

[Heimdall]

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. And in their defense, that's a pretty big first step. 

Hm, maybe make that two steps, they let dwarves join too, remember Brother Burkel?  Overall, the Chantry isn't terribly bothered by race, I think.  Other faiths?  That's another matter.

[Mistic]

I guess having a non-Andrastian at the helm could help contribute to that, in runs where the Inquisitor isn't a human noble. It might be something of an adjustment for some Andrastian soldiers in the proto-Inquisition.

 

In a rare case of optimism from my part, I think that it may be the case even with the most bigoted Human Noble at the helm. Just like in DA:O and Awakening. your Warden-Commander could be the nº1 racist in Thedas, yet the Grey Wardens as an organization didn't have that limit.

 

Leliana certainly says that in private to the Empress, and Celene points out the Divine won't publicly say that.

 

True, but remember that you were talking about your lack of interest to "submit to a human religion that views them as lesser than humans" when the Chantry missionaries were mentioned. First, the religion itself doesn't have that in its commandments, so that wouldn't be a problem as long as the missionary leaves out what humans think of elves. Second, the Chantry's stance on elves worsened after the Exalted March. Before that, conversion would have been actually easier.

 

Chantry missionary: "We are all the Maker's children! We all deserve His grace! And look, look, your hero Shartan was actually one of Andraste's disciples! Part of the Chant of Light was written by him!"

 

Well, the elven only organizations don't get any points for inclusiveness, they'd have to have humans for that.

 

Yeah, but we were talking about which organizations in Thedas were nicest to elves, not about equality. Of course, elven organizations just have it too easy in that area

[Heimdall]

True, but remember that you were talking about your lack of interest to "submit to a human religion that views them as lesser than humans" when the Chantry missionaries were mentioned. First, the religion itself doesn't have that in its commandments, so that wouldn't be a problem as long as the missionary leaves out what humans think of elves. Second, the Chantry's stance on elves worsened after the Exalted March. Before that, conversion would have been actually easier.

 

Chantry missionary: "We are all the Maker's children! We all deserve His grace! And look, look, your hero Shartan was actually one of Andraste's disciples! Part of the Chant of Light was written by him!"

Quite right, its probably important to remember that a good deal of Chantry ill feeling towards elves probably only emerged after the Exalted March on the Dales.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Hm, maybe make that two steps, they let dwarves join too, remember Brother Burkel?  Overall, the Chantry isn't terribly bothered by race, I think.  Other faiths?  That's another matter.

RIP Brother Burkel. 

[LobselVith8]

In a rare case of optimism from my part, I think that it may be the case even with the most bigoted Human Noble at the helm. Just like in DA:O and Awakening. your Warden-Commander could be the nº1 racist in Thedas, yet the Grey Wardens as an organization didn't have that limit.

I meant it might be an added factor with a non-human Inquisitor, as I think it would be logical for the organization to have a different stance than most groups (like the chevaliers) if the leader isn't human.

True, but remember that you were talking about your lack of interest to "submit to a human religion that views them as lesser than humans" when the Chantry missionaries were mentioned. First, the religion itself doesn't have that in its commandments, so that wouldn't be a problem as long as the missionary leaves out what humans think of elves. Second, the Chantry's stance on elves worsened after the Exalted March. Before that, conversion would have been actually easier.

Chantry missionary: "We are all the Maker's children! We all deserve His grace! And look, look, your hero Shartan was actually one of Andraste's disciples! Part of the Chant of Light was written by him!"

That didn't seem to do much to motivate the elves to follow the Andrastian faith in the first place.

Yeah, but we were talking about which organizations in Thedas were nicest to elves, not about equality. Of course, elven organizations just have it too easy in that area

You could be right about the Inquisition. A Dalish run Inquisition holds possibilities for me. I rather like the prospect of one of the People being in a position to help all the Elvhen.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You could be right about the Inquisition. A Dalish run Inquisition holds possibilities for me. I rather like the prospect of one of the People being in a position to help all the Elvhen.

I'd still rather be a City Elf than a Dalish. They'd be more in touch with the plight of their kind. 

[LobselVith8]

Quite right, its probably important to remember that a good deal of Chantry ill feeling towards elves probably only emerged after the Exalted March on the Dales.

It seemed to stem from their elven faith, which both the city elves and the Dalish comment on in their historical accounts.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It seemed to stem from their elven faith, which both the city elves and the Dalish comment on in their historical accounts.

I don't think that's what Heimdall was saying. The ill feelings may have begun with the different religions, but grew to what they are now by what each race has done to the other. 

[Mistic]

That didn't seem to do much to motivate the elves to follow the Andrastian faith in the first place.

 

We have to remember that there wasn't an organized form of Andrastianism when Andraste was executed. Even in territories conquered by Mafertah's armies, Andrastianism was in the minority or heavily divided in different sects.

 

The first form of organized Andrastianism was, ironically enough, the Imperial Chantry of Tevinter. But since it had effect only in the Imperium, it didn't make any conversions outside it. It wasn't until Drakon founded the Orlesian Chantry that Southern Thedas knew an organized form of Andrastianism that could manage missions, conversions and holy wars. However, by that time the Dales had already established itself as an insular kingdom who wasn't too keen on strangers. Given that the missionaries were kicked out, the elves didn't even have a chance to be motivated or not.

 

And there must be something in that faith that may convince elves because Shartan himself, the leader of the rebel slaves, converted and became one of Andraste's devotees.

[Heimdall]

We have to remember that there wasn't an organized form of Andrastianism when Andraste was executed. Even in territories conquered by Mafertah's armies, Andrastianism was in the minority or heavily divided in different sects.

The first form of organized Andrastianism was, ironically enough, the Imperial Chantry of Tevinter. But since it had effect only in the Imperium, it didn't make any conversions outside it. It wasn't until Drakon founded the Orlesian Chantry that Southern Thedas knew an organized form of Andrastianism that could manage missions, conversions and holy wars. However, by that time the Dales had already established itself as an insular kingdom who wasn't too keen on strangers. Given that the missionaries were kicked out, the elves didn't even have a chance to be motivated or not.

And there must be something in that faith that may convince elves because Shartan himself, the leader of the rebel slaves, converted and became one of Andraste's devotees.

And we don't know how many elves did or didn't believe in some form of Andrastrian faith from the start. It's not like all elves are descended from those that settled in the Dales.