Nah, she's not that clever. The all story will more likely end up in an old fashioned bloodbath, you know, to perpetuate the tradition.
The Canadian version of a bloodbath, which will probably be fairly polite and strictly comply with environmental regulations. None of that yecchy Euro / HBO stuff 
'Wot? No bloodsplatturs on ze screen? No silly costumes? Thees ees not Orlais!'
'No, this is France 1572. Now be so kind to die, madame'
The Canadian version of a bloodbath, which will probably be fairly polite and strictly comply with environmental regulations. None of that yecchy Euro / HBO stuff
Which is fine so far, I'm not into horror books anyway.
If only his tax base would not throw himself recklessly into the dark spawn. You do know your argument far from works in the landsmeet, right?
Loghain's tax base was the people of Ferelden. You know, the poor sods who paid taxes to the king's coffers. And the ones who were getting massacred by the darkspawn at Lothering and throughout the Fereldan countryside while Loghain decided to reenact the career of the Western Roman patrician Ricimerus. They weren't recklessly throwing themselves into the darkspawn, they were doing their level best to run the hell away.
Keeping them relatively safe would probably have been a more ethical way to raise money for his regime than allowing Fereldan subjects to be enslaved by a foreign power.
Why? Because she has power and uses it?
Henry VII of England, Louis XI of France, Isabel of Castile: all historical Mary Sues. Apparently. Like I said, Celene slots into the 'new monarch' paradigm very neatly.
Loghain's tax base was the people of Ferelden. You know, the poor sods who paid taxes to the king's coffers. And the ones who were getting massacred by the darkspawn at Lothering and throughout the Fereldan countryside while Loghain decided to reenact the career of the Western Roman patrician Ricimerus. They weren't recklessly throwing themselves into the darkspawn, they were doing their level best to run the hell away.
Keeping them relatively safe would probably have been a more ethical way to raise money for his regime than allowing Fereldan subjects to be enslaved by a foreign power.
Henry VII of England, Louis XI of France, Isabel of Castile: all historical Mary Sues. Apparently. Like I said, Celene slots into the 'new monarch' paradigm very neatly.
For the benefit of others, and a refresher for myself, care to elaborate on what the 'new monarch' paradigm entails?
It's not a phrase I can ever remember hearing from my formal education, so I wouldn't be surprised if not many people understood the reference.
Loghain's tax base was the people of Ferelden. You know, the poor sods who paid taxes to the king's coffers. And the ones who were getting massacred by the darkspawn at Lothering and throughout the Fereldan countryside while Loghain decided to reenact the career of the Western Roman patrician Ricimerus. They weren't recklessly throwing themselves into the darkspawn, they were doing their level best to run the hell away.
Keeping them relatively safe would probably have been a more ethical way to raise money for his regime than allowing Fereldan subjects to be enslaved by a foreign power.
You do understand how low the chances of winning that battle in ostagard was , right?
You do understand how low the chances of winning that battle in ostagard was , right?
What does Ostagar have to do with letting the darkspawn have free reign of Ferelden? As his supporters frequently like to point out, Loghain's betrayal at Ostagar saved the bulk of his forces. But he never actually made an effort to protect Ferelden's citizens from the horde, despite the fact that "saving them from being killed by darkspawn" was apparently reason enough to sell the city elves into slavery. All he did was wage war against every noble who disagreed with him and secure his borders against an enemy that was never coming.
What does Ostagar have to do with letting the darkspawn have free reign of Ferelden? As his supporters frequently like to point out, Loghain's betrayal at Ostagar saved the bulk of his forces. But he never actually made an effort to protect Ferelden's citizens from the horde, despite the fact that "saving them from being killed by darkspawn" was apparently reason enough to sell the city elves into slavery. All he did was wage war against every noble who disagreed with him and secure his borders against an enemy that was never coming.
I really don't agree with what Loghain did. But he now has a limited army. If he sent them out to protect the majority of the citizens then he would lose most of his unit in the long run. And the fights he had with the noble was about getting their support for more troop.
I can understand his reasoning but of course the issue is that he went about the wrong way to do it. Why it has to do with Ostagar is because it the core of his problem with getting support and forming an army for the entire war.
From the previews I've read, I am extremely disappointed with the portrayal of the Orlesian Civil War. It appears to be your typical conflict between the prejudiced, militant conservative in the form of Gaspard and the tolerant, innovative and subtle Celene.
Boring.
I really don't agree with what Loghain did. But he now as a limited army. If he sent them out to protect the majority of the citizens then he would lose most of his unit in the long run. And the fights he had with the noble was about getting their support for more troop.
How do you gain more troops by waging a civil war? It expends resources on both sides, and even if you keep casaulties to a minimum, defeated armies don't automatically swear allegiance to their conqueror.
That was, in fact, the whole point of winning the Landsmeet: it would have cost far too much manpower to actually defeat Loghain on the field of battle, so all of Ferelden had to unite behind the Wardens.
Face it: every single action Loghain took only drove the country further towards destruction. Even his supposed "saving the army" is tainted, because if he hadn't been so paranoid about the Orlesians and the Grey Wardens, then Cailan might have consented to a retreat and the massacre might never have happened.
The only good thing Loghain did for Ferelden was to submit to justice at the Landsmeet.
From the previews I've read, I am extremely disappointed with the portrayal of the Orlesian Civil War. It appears to be your typical conflict between the prejudiced, militant conservative in the form of Gaspard and the tolerant, innovative and subtle Celene.
Boring.
This is the orlisans with a series with a theme of revolutions. What do you expect?
We already know how they are at their base. You expect Gaspard not to act like an orlisan noble?
How do you gain more troops by waging a civil war? It expends resources, and even if you keep casaulties to a minimum, defeated armies don't automatically swear allegiance to their conqueror.
That was, in fact, the whole point of winning the Landsmeet: it would have cost far too much manpower to actually defeat Loghain on the field of battle, so all of Ferelden had to unite to unseat him.
Face it: every single action Loghain took after Ostagar only drove the country further towards destruction, due to his monumental arrogance and blind paranoia.
As I said, I don't agree with what he did. That mean waging the civil war. That type of think was about imposing order on the noble class.Clearly he was trying to use a scare tactic to get the nobles in line. Was it right? Nope. Be with the noble upset with him letting there king die it is difficult to get them in line. Loghain falls under the knight templer troph. The" i'm right even when I'm wrong " mind set.
And Arl Emon set up the landsmeet, Not Loghain.
I'm not justifying what he did in Ostagar. I see it as the start of his down fall. I'm just pointing out the logic of his thinking. Just because I understand it does not mean I agree with what he did and felt it was ok that he did it.
This is the orlisans with a series with a theme of revolutions. What do you expect?
We already know how they are at their base. You expect Gaspard not to act like an orlisan noble?
I would have hoped for a little bit more of a nuance or depth. The scene itself is not badly written; I very much enjoyed feather jousting; but the scenario is as generic as can be.
And, quite frankly, I can't see this translating well into the game. On one side you have Celene who goes to great pains to prevent a war between Orlais and Ferelden and in the other you have Gaspard who is itching for a war and just gave Teagan his murdered aunt's sword in front of nobles from all over the continent.
Who will you choose, Inquisitor?
Hopefully, it gets better. Celene getting her hands dirty would be a start.
I would have hoped for a little bit more of a nuance or depth. The scene itself is not badly written; I very much enjoyed feather jousting; but the scenario is as generic as can be.
And, quite frankly, I can't see this translating well into the game. On one side you have Celene who goes to great pains to prevent a war between Orlais and Ferelden and in the other you have Gaspard who is itching for a war and just gave Teagan his murdered aunt's sword in front of nobles from all over the continent.
Who will you choose, Inquisitor?
Hopefully, it gets better. Celene getting her hands dirty would be a start.
You already knew about that from DAO. Celene was trying to get peace with fereldin from the first game.
And we knew what type of man Gaspard was from the Asunder.
Added it more complex then just one being benevolent and one being malevolent.
Gaspard has the support of the Chavaliers. He has the army backing him, the thing you need to fight the thing coming out of the fade.
Celene is basically the right ruler at the wrong time, And Gaspard is the wrong ruler with the needed army.
It just like the battle of kings with the dwarves in DAO.
Also, I'll state this now. Celene can fight in a way you don't expect.
So in that preview chapter... Birds fly south for the winter in a continent where warm weather is to the north?
So in that preview chapter... Birds fly south for the winter in a continent where warm weather is to the north?
Good catch. Tweet Weeks about this.
Fresh from the Twitter thread:
"Celene is Patrick Weekes' self insert." BEST ADVANCE CRITICISM EVER. My secret wish to be a gay Orlesian empress revealed!
I am rolling, guys. I can't even... stahp...LMAO
How odd.
How odd.
I can live with Patrick Weekes identifying as a gay empress, but an Orlesian? Pervert.
Remember kids, being Orlesian is a choice, and you should be very ashamed of yourself.
For the benefit of others, and a refresher for myself, care to elaborate on what the 'new monarch' paradigm entails?
It's not a phrase I can ever remember hearing from my formal education, so I wouldn't be surprised if not many people understood the reference.
You do understand how low the chances of winning that battle in ostagard was , right?
I really don't agree with what Loghain did. But he now has a limited army. If he sent them out to protect the majority of the citizens then he would lose most of his unit in the long run. And the fights he had with the noble was about getting their support for more troop.
I can understand his reasoning but of course the issue is that he went about the wrong way to do it. Why it has to do with Ostagar is because it the core of his problem with getting support and forming an army for the entire war.
I can live with Patrick Weekes identifying as a gay empress, but an Orlesian? Pervert.
Remember kids, being Orlesian is a choice, and you should be very ashamed of yourself.
Good catch. Tweet Weeks about this.
Isn't it a bit late to point things like this out in terms of revision?
I apologize!
The New Monarchs are a historical trope, especially popular in the middle of the twentieth century, used to describe a group of leaders from the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries that appeared to mark a sort of transition from decentralized states to more centralized ones in similar ways. The usual ones cited are Henry VII of England, Louis XI of France, and the Most Christian Monarchs of Castile and Aragon, Isabel and Ferran II, but other contemporaries are also often included. According to the proponents of the New Monarchy trope, these rulers curbed the independence of their aristocracy, established various forms of institution that augmented royal power in 'progressive' ways, and increased state revenue.
Essentially, the New Monarchs helped to unify and organize states on a more rational basis. These efforts ended up paying off when their successors embarked on the whirlwind of activity that was sixteenth-century European political history. Without the institutions that the New Monarchs created, it is difficult to imagine the first wave of European colonization happening in the same way - or, conversely, it is hard to see how Europe would have been embroiled in the interminable wars that characterized much of the sixteenth century, either. (You know: the Habsburg-Ottoman wars, the Valois-Habsburg wars, the Italian Wars, the periodic paroxysms of internal violence that afflicted the Holy Roman Empire, and all the fighting in Scandinavia and throughout the Baltic littoral.)
There are plenty of reasons to claim that this is, uh, 'over-periodization' - that historians overemphasize the similarities between these monarchs while failing to note the similarities between them and their predecessors and successors. But there's enough there for the historical trope to survive into the modern day. Many moons ago, in my high school AP European History course, we were still going over New Monarchies and the closely related concept of the Military Revolution.
I don't believe we have any specific knowledge of what Ferelden's chances of winning at Ostagar were. We have a collection of self-serving and/or biased claims from people closely associated with one side or the other of the battle. Alistair believed that the Fereldans would have won if Loghain had supported the king; Loghain claimed that it was a doomed effort. Neither is a reliable observer; neither of them, in fact, had any possible way of even knowing. Loghain could only see the Tower of Ishal's signal, not the darkspawn horde, and Alistair was stuck up in the tower itself with no view of the battle.
However, we can point out some reasons for and against fighting at Ostagar.
Firstly, the Ostagar was fortified, and fortified well. That's extremely handy to have, especially in a space like the Korcari Wilds where it's difficult to maneuver large armies. Tying one's army to fortifications therefore offers most of the advantages of protection without the drawback of losing one's ability to maneuver; the Fereldans couldn't have maneuvered all that much anyway.
Secondly, Ostagar enjoyed the benefit of a good supply line. Positioned as it was at the end of the Imperial Highway, the best transportation infrastructure in Thedas, it was relatively easy to shuttle troops and supplies down to it - or, conversely, to retreat from it if things got too hot. Keeping a large force in the field is extremely difficult, especially for medieval armies, and with the Highway there the task was infinitely simpler.
Thirdly, by fighting in a forward position, the Fereldan army reduced the threat to the civilian populace. In the Korcari Wilds, the only people who were at risk were the Chasind. By keeping the darkspawn away from Ferelden proper for as long as possible, the king's army protected the people, the tax base, and the country's food sources. North of Ostagar, the country opens up considerably. It's easier to maneuver large armies, and defensive positions assume less value. Ostagar, used as a defensive bastion and a point d'appui, had excellent utility as a blocking position for an outnumbered Fereldan army. The spawn would not find it easy to maneuver around it (if, indeed, the darkspawn army could maneuver at all); they would almost have to attack. But even withdrawing as far as Lothering gives the spawn more space to get around a blocking force. If you have a smaller force, you want to use choke points if your goal is to prevent a larger enemy from moving past you. Ostagar was the best spot to service that ambition.
It's difficult to understand an argument for retreating from Ostagar, actually. The fortress provided a large number of force multipliers to the Fereldan army; tactically, it was likely to be the best place in the entire country to face down an enemy army, apart from Redcliffe or Denerim itself. But if the darkspawn were attacking Redcliffe or Denerim, the entire country would have been practically subsumed by the Blight. That's a problem. Retreat has a serious cost. One could not propose to simply keep an 'army in being' in the field while the darkspawn ravage the Fereldan countryside. The spawn would destroy the Fereldans' sources of food and shelter, would poison the very land that they fight on. You need domestic industry - cottage industry, in this time period - to keep an army armed and armored, and to keep horses shod and healthy; if the darkspawn are destroying that industry, you're screwed. You can't keep an army together without food and supplies.
The only reason to withdraw from Ostagar would be if withdrawal would allow more allied forces to link up with the army. Otherwise, the Fereldans would have yielded territory and positional advantages without gaining anything in return. Yet Loghain refused to countenance the assistance of allied forces. He did not want Orlesian aid, either from the Empire or from the Wardens. He took actions that could only have resulted in the opposition of Redcliffe, the only other major unengaged Fereldan force. What was left? Howe's men from Amaranthine, who were still busily murdering Couslands and the part of Highever's military that hadn't already gone to Ostagar? Would that make up for the loss of the king's forces and the Grey Wardens? It's hard to imagine that it would. So Loghain proposed to retreat from Ostagar, yield a valuable forward defensive position, get a significant chunk of the army killed, and dramatically increase the danger to the populace and resources of Ferelden, and in exchange he would be getting...uh...a bunch of guys from Arl Howe. I don't believe that that improves his chances of taking on the Blight.
If Loghain believed that reinforcements were either unnecessary or a Bad Thing, he should have supported staying at Ostagar. If he thought that Ostagar was doomed, then he should have demanded reinforcements to compensate for the loss of the Ostagar position. Instead, he chose the worst of both possible paths: no reinforcements and no Ostagar battle.
Loghain, in fact, seems to have held bizarrely contradictory opinions about the Blight. After Ostagar, he claimed that the darkspawn were too strong and that the Fereldan army was doomed if it fought them. Okay, then why devote the bulk of your attention to enemies within Ferelden and to Orlais? If the darkspawn were an existential menace, surely they would take priority over the Orlesians. If Loghain did think that the darkspawn were too strong to fight at Ostagar, then that is indicative of gravely muddled military thinking, and does not constitute a vote of confidence in his favor. If you believe that Loghain was a competent commander who understood the benefits and drawbacks of the major options available to the Fereldan army, then you must concede that his ultimate policy was not motivated by that sober understanding of the darkspawn and what he was up against. Other concerns - greed, resentment, anger, personal squabbles with the king - were in the mix as well.
We cannot know if Loghain's decision tipped the Battle of Ostagar in the darkspawn's favor. It's impossible to figure out, short of Word of God. Fundamentally, battle is a lottery. Any action involving thousands, or tens of thousands of individual people is inherently random. The best a commander can do is give his troops the best chance to win: with a good plan, with good force multipliers, by minimizing the enemy's own advantages. Tactically, the Ostagar position was probably the best place for the Fereldans to fight. Operationally, it made sense to fight at Ostagar as long as possible. Leaving Ostagar would almost certainly not improve Ferelden's chance to end the Blight.
If he failed to protect the majority of Ferelden's subjects, then he would lose all of his troops in the long run. You cannot fight an army without civilians supporting it: as recruits, as taxpayers, as food suppliers, as lodgers, and as emotional and psychological support.
Loghain's previous experience of war was in the rebellion against Orlesian rule. But the Orlesians weren't the darkspawn. They could not wipe out Ferelden's inhabitants and have any hope to rule the country afterward. Orlais simply wanted to insert its own leaders and clients into the existing Fereldan power structure. They had to fight Moira, Maric, Loghain, and the other rebels with the disadvantage of not being able to destroy the insurgency's base of support. Against the Orlesians, Loghain could keep an army-in-being together. Against the darkspawn, he could not. The spawn destroyed Ferelden's power structure and slaughtered its civilians. If Loghain proposed to keep his army together, live off the land, and move from position to position whittling down the darkspawn until he could mount a River Dane-style decisive battle and destroy them, he would lose his army to attrition and lack of supply long before he would even sniff a decisive battle. To defeat a Blight, you need the Grey Wardens; to fight darkspawn, you need to keep them as far away from civilian infrastructure for as long as possible. Loghain wanted to do neither of those things.
yah boo monarchy sucks, down with empresses
1. Using the argument of fortification is destroyed based on the fact of how quickly they lost and were overwhelmed.
Fordification is a concept defensive war fare where usually it matters not who has the majority number. If a fort is fortitude and if it faces an army, the fact of the structure of how the fort is built will slow down the amount of units of the apposing army can attack. They would have go around the defence of the fort to attack, which are the very walls them selves. That gives time for units to attack and kill the other opposing army in small amounts, funneling them to their deaths. A smaller army normally do this tactic to larger armies to ware them out of buy time.
The fact that the army in ostagar fell so quickly points out to how overwhelming the darkspawn are. If it were fortified enough to stop the dark spawn then Loghan leaving the field would not be enough for them to fall so quickly. It would of taken around a week to do so.
So lets not kid ourselves. Winning at ostagar was a low chance.
2. That really is not the case. Loghan was imposing a of the majority of the citizen who was near him and left the southern part of ferelden as fodder the draw the dark spawns attention.He was already in a state of resupplying and getting reserve troops. No amount of protecting citizens is the south would improve that. When facing an army that overwhelms your's in battle it's impossible to save every city. The only real tactic available is protecting key locations and supply lines, which he did. It just turns out that it's too late to do that with southern ferelden. Ironically, every key point he control became ares when we took over and the army he build became ours as well.
Winning with a war does not mean saving every citizen. It means finding a way to beat the enemy in the long run.
While this is a fascinating conversation, I'm not sure what it has to do with the novel.
Important question: Will there be sex scenes? And I don't mean any of that fade-to-black nonsense.
Yes, because for me it can be unpleasant surprize.
While this is a fascinating conversation, I'm not sure what it has to do with the novel.
Important question: Will there be sex scenes? And I don't mean any of that fade-to-black nonsense.
Yes, because for me it can be unpleasant surprize.
It's fade to black and low discription nudity.
Have you already read it, or has this been asked previously?
One occasion towards the begining of the book was fade to black. I didn't read more than a couple of pages past the first chapter, so I can't speak as to the rest of the book.
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