324 réponses à ce sujet

[Westan Willows]

I like still spell. A spell that I like is Edwards Black Tentacles.

[Bogdanov89]

Bogdanov89 wrote...

My companions/familiars are very unreliable.

Sometimes they will charge ahead and attack without any command from me.

Sometimes they will not attack until i give the "Attack Nearest" command, even if I or they are being attacked by enemies.

Sometimes they will simply stand still and not do anything during combat (they are not stunned/dazed/paralyzed) - they will even ignore my Attack Nearest command, they will ignore all enemies attacking them or me...

Sometimes they refuse to follow and just stand in one place, regardless of the follow distance agreed to in the conversation.

Quite often the Cleric companion will actually "forget" to cast her healing spells when my health drops below the "agreed threshold" that i set up by talking to her.

Quite often the cleric/bard companions will cast buffs as soon as they see enemies, which usually means no one else is close enough to be affected by those buffs.

I tried ALL the options and distance settings available through the conversation with companions - but it just does not help at all.

Overall the companion AI is just horribly unreliable, and i am hoping to find a mod that can greatly improve the AI.

Aside from ALL those issues, i would also like to be able to customize the behaviour of my companions to a greater detail - but honestly, getting them to work in even the most basic way would be a huge improvement!

[MrZork]

Regarding companion/henchmen AI. There are a few mods that can be helpful and make associates (the generic term for henchmen/familiars/animal companions/summons) function with a bit more intelligence or more sensibly. Let me say at the outset that I don't know of any AI mod that really makes NPCs work as well as I would like. So, know going in that there are still going to be times when you can't get an associate to do what you want and in the way that makes sense to you.

That said, you really ought to give Tony K's AI mod a try. It is #1 in jmlzemaggo's great list of NWN add-ons. It will let you interact with your associates and make them a bit smarter. You can tell them not to cast or to cast certain spells or to only cast against tough opponents, etc. You can give them instructions on when to swap from ranged to melee weapons. Et cetera.

And, though this isn't what you were looking for, it also makes enemies more intelligent. That is a big plus. It the end of the day, having more challenging opponents really does make the game more fun.

The mod is not perfect. Someone else may have a recommendation for a better one, though I don't know of one. But, my experience playing with smarter associates and playing against smarter opponents is a noticeable improvement.

[MagicalMaster]

Tony K's AI is usually what I've heard to use unless the mod itself made improvements (in which case Tony K's AI might mess things up -- like in the Aielund Saga, for example). You could use Tony K's for the official campaigns for sure, though, and see if you like it.

I've also done some work on a better way to actually control companions (you can force them to attack certain enemies or move to certain locations) but that's a module specific thing -- you'd have to edit a specific module to get that "installed." You could see it in action in Siege of the Heavens in my signature if you play a Druid or Ranger with an animal companion, but that's definitely a more advanced module that requires you to understand how NWN mechanics work.

But if you're ever up for a fairly significant challenge, check it out.

[Westan Willows]

Before installing any addon you should copy your override folder and save under a new mane just in case.

[Bogdanov89]

I read the wikia pages, but i still don't quite understand the difference between Empower and Maximize spell feats.

What confuses me even more is i read that, in quite a few cases, the Empowered spell is actually more powerful than the Maximized spell - which, to me, makes no sense.

Can someone please explain all that to me in some very simple english?

Addition:

Sometimes, when i am making my character, i got a high Skill (like Heal) that is my class skill - but my attribute modifier for that skill is rather bad (negative, like a Fighter with -2 wisdom modifier).

In other cases, i got a Skill which is NOT my class skill (2 points for 1 improvement, like Persuade for Sorcerer) - but my attribute modifier for that skill is quite high (charisma on sorcerer, which is good for persuade).

In the first (fighter with Heal) example, i really don't want to waste putting skill points in Heal if my negative wisdom modifier is going to make it too weak to properly heal and remove diseases/poisons.

In the second example (sorcerer with persuade), i really don't want to waste putting skill points in the non-class Persuade if that low skill increase (1 increase for 2 points) will make that skill too weak to strongly perform.

In which of these cases is the skill actually going to be strong?
Or, in other words, are the Skill points more important OR is the skill's attribute modifier more important when determining a skill's strength/power?

Modifié par Bogdanov89, 30 janvier 2014 - 04:18 .

[MagicalMaster]

Let's say you're a level 10 caster with Fireball. This therefore does 10d6 damage (average of 35).

If you Empower it you roll 10d6 and then multiply by 1.5 (which is an average of 52.5).

If you Maximize it you roll 10 * 6 = 60.

Thus Maximize is usually better than Empower.

However, let's say you had a spell which does 1d8 + 1 per level and you're level 10.

Normal spell is 4.5 + 10 = 14.5 average.

Maximized spell is 8 + 10 = 18 average.

Empowered spell is (4.5 + 10) * 1.5 = 21.75.

Note that Empowered is now better than maximized (which is stupid, frankly).

In general, the more a spell just uses a lot of dice (and the larger the dice) the better Maximize is. The more a spell adds a flat increase without any dice the better Empower is.

[Bogdanov89]

Thank you for replying.

Can you please take a look at my added question (previous post) about skills?

Also, when you say "larger the dice" in the 10d6 example, do you mean the 10d part of it - or the d6 part of it?
For maximize, is the "10d" more important or the "d6"?

[Shadooow]

Bogdanov89 wrote...

I read the wikia pages, but i still don't quite understand the difference between Empower and Maximize spell feats.

What confuses me even more is i read that, in quite a few cases, the Empowered spell is actually more powerful than the Maximized spell - which, to me, makes no sense.

Yes indeed it doesnt make a sense and its obviously wrong. CPP fixes this issue and empower doesnt affect addittional bonuses into damage calculation. Strangely enough NWN community doesnt consider this odd at all claiming this to be bioware's intent and my fix to be a balance change. Not that it would matter as we both know the truth

[Westan Willows]

The question should be "is the skill important to you' In the case of heal I put skill point into it. I use healkits all the time. Now how often do you use persuade? 10d6 is 10 six sided dice. or 1 six sided die rolled 10 times.

Modifié par Westan Willows, 30 janvier 2014 - 04:41 .

[MagicalMaster]

Bogdanov89 wrote...

Sometimes, when i am making my character, i got a high Skill (like Heal) that is my class skill - but my attribute modifier for that skill is rather bad (negative, like a Fighter with -2 wisdom modifier).

In other cases, i got a Skill which is NOT my class skill (2 points for 1 improvement, like Persuade for Sorcerer) - but my attribute modifier for that skill is quite high (charisma on sorcerer, which is good for persuade).

In the first (fighter with Heal) example, i really don't want to waste putting skill points in Heal if my negative wisdom modifier is going to make it too weak to properly heal and remove diseases/poisons.

In the second example (sorcerer with persuade), i really don't want to waste putting skill points in the non-class Persuade if that low skill increase (1 increase for 2 points) will make that skill too weak to strongly perform.

In which of these cases is the skill actually going to be strong?
Or, in other words, are the Skill points more important OR is the skill's attribute modifier more important when determining a skill's strength/power?

Skill points wind up mattering more -- yes, your fighter might have a -1 wisdom modifier (-2 isn't even possibly by default) but that matters far less when you have 43 ranks in it.

And in terms of Persuade, a sorcerer with 20 charisma modifier at 40 will only have 41 max possible persuade -- meaning a druid with -1 charisma modifier will technically be better at persuading if they invest 43 ranks.

You'll note that both are pretty close anyway -- so a general rule of thumb is that you either need it to be a class skill OR you need a high modifier in that attribute.

There are some exceptions to this like Tumble and Appraise since, to some degree, ANY points in these are valuable -- it's not "pass/fail" like stealth.  Having 20 persuade versus a DC of 50 is no better than having 0 persuade.  But having 20 Tumble or 20 appraise is much better than having 0.

Bogdanov89 wrote...

Thank you for replying.

Can you please take a look at my added question (previous post) about skills?

Also, when you say "larger the dice" in the 10d6 example, do you mean the 10d part of it - or the d6 part of it?
For maximize, is the "10d" more important or the "d6"?

The d6.  A d4 averages 2.5.  Empowered is 3.75, Maximized 4.  Little difference.  d20 averages 10.5.  Empowered is 15.75, Maximized 20.  Big difference.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Yes indeed it doesnt make a sense and its obviously wrong. CPP fixes this issue and empower doesnt affect addittional bonuses into damage calculation. Strangely enough NWN community doesnt consider this odd at all claiming this to be bioware's intent and my fix to be a balance change. Not that it would matter as we both know the truth

It is a balance change.  The basic idea of "Empower Spell" is that it deals 50% more damage.  It soups up the spell.

However, if a spell does 1d8 + 2 per caster level, at level 40 Empower increases it from 84.5 to 86.75 if we use your method which is terrible and completely worthless.  It SHOULD go from 84.5 to 126.75.

In other words, the thing that needs to be changed is MAXIMIZE spell, not Empower spell, because Maximize doesn't account for non-dice values.  In the example above Maximizing the spell would only increase it from 84.5 to 88 -- again, completely worthless.  If anything Maximize should simply always increase a spell's damage by 70% (which is 6/3.5, or a maximized d6 divided by an average d6) if otherwise the damage would be less.  In other words, a Fireball would go 60/35 = 71% bonus, so leave it alone.  But the spell I gave would go 88/84.5 = 4% bonus, so multiply 84.5 * 1.70 = 143.65.  Could adjust it for d4 versus d8 spells or whatever if really necessary, but 70% is reasonably fair (arguably should be 84% bonus -- sqrt(1.5)^3 = 1.84, which is using Empower Spell as the basis aka 2 spell levels higher should be 50% more).

[Bogdanov89]

Amazing answers, thank you all!

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

It is a balance change.  The basic idea of "Empower Spell" is that it deals 50% more damage.  It soups up the spell.
..bblabla

three things that justify my change:
1) logic, what you just wrote is nonsense how could be maximized doing maximum of the value for caster lvl? lol
2) dnd manual and since the manual is a bit unclear in this I suggest also to read a various discussions on forums about DnD
3) fact that what I have actually done was to *unite* the spell damage calculation from HotU into non-HotU spells. Bioware itself changed their mind about damage calculation in HotU but didnt bothered to update older spells. I did that so now all spells works with the latest decision of the Bioware.

(Truth to be told, the actual empower calculation from HotU is really incorrect. If you really go through the DnD disussions, manuals and FAQ you find out that the empower should take into account the fixed values like +1 in magical missile, only the scaled bonus per caster level is not taken into consideration. I didnt changed it because of what I wrote in the third point, this is not my calculation but Bioware's. And latest. Plus there are some minor issues with few in DnD non-existing spells which breaks the balance in Empower/Maximize if this would be corrected.)

So it is a fix ? Wasnt broken just horribly advantageous so those who liked that advantage tell you that no it isn't. Think what you want it doest matter, CPP changed this reasonably.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 30 janvier 2014 - 05:16 .

[MagicalMaster]

Also, Westan's point about Persuade versus Heal is terrible.

Unless you're in a healing limited environment, which can happen, the Heal skill has little value. However, Persuade open can unlock new quests, new rewards, or bypass fights (in a good way, like not having to kill a character who you don't WANT to fight). So you might use it less but the difference is usually far greater.

Honestly, I would ignore any advice Westan gives. Listen to MrZork, Shadow, rogueknight333, myself, and a bunch of others...but don't listen to Westan.

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

1) logic, what you just wrote is nonsense how could be maximized doing maximum of the value for caster lvl? lol

You'll have to explain what the hell you mean by this.

There are spells (like Negative Energy Burst) which do 1d8 + 1 per caster level. This means a level 20 caster will deal 24.5 average damage.  If they maximize it, they will deal 28 damage (since maximize only affects the d8).  This is a 14% bonus for THREE spell levels higher and clearly broken.

My math was pretty clear.  If you're not sure what I meant by some part of it, please point to the specific section or sections and ask what I meant rather than dismissing the whole thing as nonsense.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

So it is a fix ? Wasnt broken just horribly advantageous so those who liked that advantage tell you that no it isn't. Think what you want it doest matter, CPP changed this reasonably.

From what you're saying it made Empowering Negative Energy Burst less of a percent bonus than Empowering Fireball for absolutely no good reason.  Why should empower give a 50% bonus on some spells and a 10% bonus or LESS on other spells?

[Elhanan]

Read Mod descriptions; they often have tips from the author that will aid the Player in choosing Skills, Feats, and ability choices (eg; Favored Enemies). These can include notes whether some choices are restricted or empowered within the Mod setting. Some authors like Persuade skills; some optimize perception, etc.

Same can also go for PW's, as advanced intel may be gathered from forum pages, FAQ's, or even friendly Staff gremlins that are open for questions. Very few places I have visited have had Staff that would wish someone to build a useless character, or invest in restricted abilities.

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

You'll have to explain what the hell you mean by this.

There are spells (like Negative Energy Burst) which do 1d8 + 1 per caster level. This means a level 20 caster will deal 24.5 average damage.  If they maximize it, they will deal 28 damage (since maximize only affects the d8).  This is a 14% bonus for THREE spell levels higher and clearly broken.

My math was pretty clear.  If you're not sure what I meant by some part of it, please point to the specific section or sections and ask what I meant rather than dismissing the whole thing as nonsense.

Okay, alright. I stopped reading after "maximize should be changed (improved), which really amused me since the first I was thought of was how are you maximizing the energy burst by adding a maximum value for caster level hehe. Anyway, so you suggest 70%? Well now that would be a huge balance change. You are thinking about empower and maximize in pure numerical way and highmagic way. With your change what you would actually get is a huge increase of the casters damage output, is it needed? Definitely not for a generic enviroment or even low magic. In high magic this is indeed an issue but not caused by a metamagic but rather the fact that epic spells are implemented differently than they should be in NWN and also that there is missing the epic feat for the caster level cap increase in spells.

From what you're saying it made Empowering Negative Energy Burst less of a percent bonus than Empowering Fireball for absolutely no good reason.  Why should empower give a 50% bonus on some spells and a 10% bonus or LESS on other spells?

There is no answer for this, I havent invented the DnD magic system neither spells. But I can counterargument easily because in vanilla nwn this is a complete mess where empower one one spell does 70%, 30% on other spell and maximize does 50% on the first spell and 70% on the other spell. Is that perhaps more correct? I was never trying to balance/fix maximize, only the clear issue in empower which often overcame maximized spell. So I ask you, is the fact that empowers overcame a maximize spell correct by your opinion? If yes we have nothing to debate. If not, then what are you arguing about? If a CPP instead of nerfing empower boosted maximize it would be treated even worse.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 30 janvier 2014 - 05:43 .

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Anyway, so you suggest 70%? Well now that would be a huge balance change. You are thinking about empower and maximize in pure numerical way and highmagic way. With your change what you would actually get is a huge increase of the casters damage output, is it needed?

How would you get a huge increase of the caster's damage output?  Empower would remain +50%.  Maximize ALREADY gives a 71% bonus to a spell with d6s and a 78% bonus to a spell with d8s.  In other words, having Maximize do +70% MINIMUM is a SMALLER bonus than a Fireball or Lightning Bolt gets from Maximize, stritctly speaking.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

So I ask you, is the fact that empowers overcame a maximize spell correct by your opinion? If yes we have nothing to debate. If not, then what are you arguing about? If a CPP instead of nerfing empower boosted maximize it would be treated even worse.

No, Empower should never beat Maximize WHICH IS MY ENTIRE POINT HERE.  My point is that 50% increase for Empower is GOOD and that you should change Maximize to always be better than Empower rather than making Empowering 50% of damage spells completely worthless (note: 50% is used for dramatic effect and exact percentage might vary).

However, given the alternatives of having Empower SOMETIMES be better than Maximize or making Empower COMPLETELY USELESS for many spells, I would prefer the former.  Or, to rephrase, the part that is broken and needs to be fixed is Maximize.  Don't break Empower Spell without a good reason.

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Anyway, so you suggest 70%? Well now that would be a huge balance change. You are thinking about empower and maximize in pure numerical way and highmagic way. With your change what you would actually get is a huge increase of the casters damage output, is it needed?

How would you get a huge increase of the caster's damage output?  Empower would remain +50%.  Maximize ALREADY gives a 71% bonus to a spell with d6s and a 78% bonus to a spell with d8s.  In other words, having Maximize do +70% MINIMUM is a SMALLER bonus than a Fireball or Lightning Bolt gets from Maximize, stritctly speaking.

Okay, huge is not a right word, but it would have increased the casters damage output globally a bit.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

So I ask you, is the fact that empowers overcame a maximize spell correct by your opinion? If yes we have nothing to debate. If not, then what are you arguing about? If a CPP instead of nerfing empower boosted maximize it would be treated even worse.

No, Empower should never beat Maximize WHICH IS MY ENTIRE POINT HERE.  My point is that 50% increase for Empower is GOOD and that you should change Maximize to always be better than Empower rather than making Empowering 50% of damage spells completely worthless (note: 50% is used for dramatic effect and exact percentage might vary).

However, given the alternatives of having Empower SOMETIMES be better than Maximize or making Empower COMPLETELY USELESS for many spells, I would prefer the former.  Or, to rephrase, the part that is broken and needs to be fixed is Maximize.  Don't break Empower Spell without a good reason.

Point taken. Your suggestion is actually quite good and its something to consider on a high magic world, but I had good reasons to change Empower Spell which I already explained. Did you actually read the DnD sources on this issue?

Perhaps I should also add that Dungeon and Dragons, the ruleset behind NWN was designed in a way you could describe as "low magic". The maximize spell calculation is correct by these rules. I dont know why certain spells are less beneficial maximized than others, converted to percentages. I have some ideas but Im not sure of it and it doesnt actually bother me, I didnt even fixed the calculation, I just fixed the inconsistency "where half the nwn used meters and second foots" to use the newest unit available.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 30 janvier 2014 - 06:11 .

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Okay, huge is not a right word, but it would have increased the casters damage output globally a bit.

It would have no effect on Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Acid Breath, Ice Storm, ILMS, Hammer of the Gods, Wall of Fire, Flame Strike, Firebrand, Cold of Cold, Acid Fog, IGMS, Chain Lightning, or a bunch of other spells.

What spells exactly are you concerned about suddenly getting a reason to maximize?

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Point taken. Your suggestion is actually quite good and its something to consider on a high magic world, but I had good reasons to change Empower Spell which I already explained. Did you actually read the DnD sources on this issue?

I said a good reason, not what the DnD rules say (yes, I went and looked).  Why should Negative Energy Burst do 9% more damage Empowered while a Fireball does 50% more damage Empowered?  Or why should Cure Critical Wounds do 23% more Empowered while Ice Storm does 50% more Empowered?

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I have some ideas but Im not sure of it and it doesnt actually bother me, I didnt even fixed the calculation, I just fixed the inconsistency "where half the nwn used meters and second foots" to use the newest unit available.

Well, it bothers me very much *precisely* because it is a balance change that also acts directly counter to the advice most people will get.  That also happens to be a very STUPID change.  Exactly the sort of thing a "Community Patch" should NOT do.

[Squatting Monk]

MagicalMaster wrote...

I said a good reason, not what the DnD rules say (yes, I went and looked).  Why should Negative Energy Burst do 9% more damage Empowered while a Fireball does 50% more damage Empowered?  Or why should Cure Critical Wounds do 23% more Empowered while Ice Storm does 50% more Empowered?

This isn't so much a problem with how Empowered works but with inconsistent spell design. Some have large amounts of random dice while some have large static bonuses. Barring rewriting all the spells to use the same system or changing meta-magic mechanics entirely (neither of which should be part of the community patch), we just need to acknowledge that some spells are best empowered and some are best maximized. The same tool doesn't have to be applicable in every situation.

EDIT: having said that, lemme be clear: I think the vanilla mechanic was more consistently useful given the spells as written, even if it did outshine Maximize on occasion. I would rather the CP not have altered it.

Modifié par Squatting Monk, 31 janvier 2014 - 12:51 .

[MagicalMaster]

Squatting Monk wrote...

EDIT: having said that, lemme be clear: I think the vanilla mechanic was more consistently useful given the spells as written, even if it did outshine Maximize on occasion. I would rather the CP not have altered it.

Precisely.  It's a solution that's worse than the original problem.

Like you say, I don't think an overhaul or even a partial overhaul of the spell system should be part of the community patch which is what changing Empower Spell is doing.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 31 janvier 2014 - 01:12 .

[Bogdanov89]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Squatting Monk wrote...
EDIT: having said that, lemme be clear: I think the vanilla mechanic was more consistently useful given the spells as written, even if it did outshine Maximize on occasion. I would rather the CP not have altered it.

Precisely.  It's a solution that's worse than the original problem.
Like you say, I don't think an overhaul or even a partial overhaul of the spell system should be part of the community patch which is what changing Empower Spell is doing.

Since i am using the Community Patch 1.71 RC3, can you please explain what it has changed about Empower (or Maximize, or the spell system) - but in simple english

Modifié par Bogdanov89, 31 janvier 2014 - 03:41 .

[MagicalMaster]

Empower has been changed from boosting spells by 50% to sometimes only boosting spells by 10-25% depending on the spell. That kind of stuff is why I DON'T use the "community patch" and would not recommend it to people -- it goes beyond simple bug fixes. And it's one of the reasons I don't think many people even use said patch.

Personally, I'd uninstall it if you can.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 31 janvier 2014 - 04:34 .

[MagicalMaster]

Look, I appreciate your efforts Shadow but this kind of stuff is why I can't support or use your patch. And why I won't recommend it to anyone.  It seriously bothers me.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 31 janvier 2014 - 04:01 .