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A game dev's perspective on ME3 fan requests


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#251
marcelo caldas

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[/quote]

Agree. ME2's main plot is simple and pretty straigtforward but it was interesting and well written for the most part (Horizon is a derp fest tho) but it's pretty good. 

And dat Suicide Mission.... Easily the best finale in gaming history. Maybe RE4 and Bioshock are close but ME2 is better I think. 

But like I said, I'm really liking ME1 on PC. It's pretty cool. 

[/quote]

Agreed.
ME1 - best plot/idea/history
ME2 - best game/most fun
ME3 - best gameplay and multiplayer, best shiitty ending, best dlc (citadel)

Modifié par caldas, 26 janvier 2014 - 10:28 .


#252
TurianRebel212

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I got the mods and stuff. Thanks tho. I am really, really liking ME1. I get about 75 frames and it's utterly gorgeous. But the biggest thing is how well the shooting and combat are on PC. Very good, a lot better than XB. I think I can finally tackle insanity on ME1 since the combat isn't so clunky as it is on XB.

#253
TurianRebel212

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[quote]caldas wrote...


[/quote]

Agree. ME2's main plot is simple and pretty straigtforward but it was interesting and well written for the most part (Horizon is a derp fest tho) but it's pretty good. 

And dat Suicide Mission.... Easily the best finale in gaming history. Maybe RE4 and Bioshock are close but ME2 is better I think. 

But like I said, I'm really liking ME1 on PC. It's pretty cool. 

[/quote]

Agreed.
ME1 - best plot/idea/history
ME2 - best game/most fun
ME3 - best gameplay and multiplayer, best shiitty ending, best dlc (citadel)
[/quote]

Pretty much this. I fall in line with this almost exactly. 

Citadel DLC was a masterpiece. Easily the best thing about ME3. 

#254
AlanC9

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ImaginaryMatter wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
Not entirely, not when certain facts are known about it, such as the option to sacrifice humanity and the Reapers being made into "good guys" even more than they were in ME3's ending.  Any amount of exposition wouldn't be able to change those things. 


Are those really facts though? For all we know the writing team might have decided to change or revise those things after actually working on an actually story or working through several drafts. I'm not a writer myself but I assume those kinds of things happen. All I'm saying is that it's just a big 'what if' question that doesn't have an answer because there are to many unknowns.


So it's not the actual DE plot we're talking about, but a hypothetical total rewrite that only keeps the name?

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 janvier 2014 - 10:45 .


#255
Han Shot First

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Argentoid wrote...

All to deem Shepard as the bad guy all along. What a twist.


An alternate universe where Drew K stays on to helm ME3 would have been amusing.

The BSN would have been flooded with "OMG Drew is terribad why couldn't Mac Walters have wrote the ending?!!!111" threads.

#256
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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I don't mind being the bad guy. But I can already do that with ME3, as it already stands. I don't always play this way, but I'm a bit compelled to play Shepard as the human Saren at times. And I don't mean Synthesis Saren. I mean the bitter soldier he was before that. I hate Turians as much as he hates humans. A part of me sees Krogans, Rachni, Quarians, and Geth as too much of a problem to have around too. What a headache. And I love nailing Asari. "So ageless and superior". And of course, I hate Reapers and Cerberus. To quote Me2 Jack: "The galaxy is going to be a lot emptier place when I'm done with it." lmao

Modifié par StreetMagic, 26 janvier 2014 - 11:20 .


#257
chevyguy87

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[quote]TurianRebel212 wrote...

[quote]caldas wrote...


[/quote]

Agree. ME2's main plot is simple and pretty straigtforward but it was interesting and well written for the most part (Horizon is a derp fest tho) but it's pretty good. 

And dat Suicide Mission.... Easily the best finale in gaming history. Maybe RE4 and Bioshock are close but ME2 is better I think. 

But like I said, I'm really liking ME1 on PC. It's pretty cool. 

[/quote]

Agreed.
ME1 - best plot/idea/history
ME2 - best game/most fun
ME3 - best gameplay and multiplayer, best shiitty ending, best dlc (citadel)
[/quote]

Pretty much this. I fall in line with this almost exactly. 

Citadel DLC was a masterpiece. Easily the best thing about ME3. 

[/quote]

This right here, Ill never forget the opening sequence for ME1. That to me is the best opening to a game Ive ever played. ME2 I played so many times I never got bored with it. ME3 had great controls and thats about it.

#258
chemiclord

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chevyguy87 wrote...

ME1 - best plot/idea/history
ME2 - best game/most fun
ME3 - best gameplay and multiplayer, best shiitty ending, best dlc (citadel)


I'd say more along the lines of:

ME1 - Best overall story.  If for no reason than there wasn't anything prior to it they could mess up... but that opening premise and execution was stellar.  It's clear that ME1 had the most time for story development; simply because the storytelling is as solid as it gets in the series.

ME2 - Best overall characters.  Bioware games, especially since the Neverwinter days, have found their wheelhouse in characters and character development.  Not to say that EVERY character is amazingly crafted, but it has easily become the strength of the studio, and nowhere does that character skill show than here.

ME3 - Best overall game mechanics.  The story gets impaled viciously (and in many cases rightfully so), but there's little debate in my mind that this is the most mechanically robust and polished game in the trilogy and quite possibly in Bioware's entire stable.  Little things like how characters now move around and interact with each other was a very nice touch that seems sadly overlooked far too often, for example.

#259
Iakus

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chemiclord wrote...

ME3 - Best overall game mechanics.  The story gets impaled viciously (and in many cases rightfully so), but there's little debate in my mind that this is the most mechanically robust and polished game in the trilogy and quite possibly in Bioware's entire stable.  Little things like how characters now move around and interact with each other was a very nice touch that seems sadly overlooked far too often, for example.


Just goes to show that mechanics can't carry a narrative-based game.

#260
chemiclord

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iakus wrote...

Just goes to show that mechanics can't carry a narrative-based game.


Well, considering that ME1 is my least favorite of the series because it's such a chore to play through, I'd argue that narrative alone isn't particularly all that great either.  Dead serious, it took me a year to pick up ME2 until friends convinced me it wasn't anything that painful slog of ME1.

I'm still not entirely fond of that game, even though narratively it's the most sound... although in the spirit of honesty, I wasn't exactly blown away by ME1's story either.  It was a good tale, make no mistake, with moments of excellence to be sure (Soveriegn's speech on Virmire was the closest to a Lovecraftian chill I've ever experienced in a game)... but it often kinda was "Meh... moving on..."

And I still kinda get a giggle from people who are enraged about the sudden appearance of the Catalyst with next to no warning and in the same breath sigh with wistful nostalgia about the sudden appearance of Vigil, who does damn near next to the same thing narratively for ME1's story.

Modifié par chemiclord, 27 janvier 2014 - 12:03 .


#261
Iakus

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chemiclord wrote...

And I still kinda get a giggle from people who are enraged about the sudden appearance of the Catalyst with next to no warning and in the same breath sigh with wistful nostalgia about the sudden appearance of Vigil, who does damn near next to the same thing narratively for ME1's story.


Vigil doesn't destroy the galaxy if you call it on hits bull...poop

#262
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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You're going into Ilos and the Crucible Beam expecting to encounter something Prothean or Reaper based (respectively). The difference is that you expect an ally of sorts from anything Prothean. You don't expect that from the Reapers. The Catalyst tries to pose as a benefactor- and you're autodialogued to acknowledge it. That's infuriating for people who've been fighting Reapers going on 5/6 years of games.. and then throughout ME3 itself. It's just a really "de-protagonizing" moment (for lack of a better word) and takes a lot of the steam out of the story. Imo.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 27 janvier 2014 - 12:15 .


#263
dreamgazer

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iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

And I still kinda get a giggle from people who are enraged about the sudden appearance of the Catalyst with next to no warning and in the same breath sigh with wistful nostalgia about the sudden appearance of Vigil, who does damn near next to the same thing narratively for ME1's story.


Vigil doesn't destroy the galaxy if you call it on hits bull...poop


He might, if you pitched a fit and told him that you didn't believe him. 

"Fine. Find the Conduit yourself, you goober. And you're definitely not getting this datafile."

Modifié par dreamgazer, 27 janvier 2014 - 12:27 .


#264
marcelo caldas

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StreetMagic wrote...

You're going into Ilos and the Crucible Beam expecting to encounter something Prothean or Reaper based (respectively). The difference is that you expect an ally of sorts from anything Prothean. You don't expect that from the Reapers. The Catalyst tries to pose as a benefactor- and you're autodialogued to acknowledge it. That's infuriating for people who've been fighting Reapers going on 5/6 years of games.. and then throughout ME3 itself. It's just a really "de-protagonizing" moment (for lack of a better word) and takes a lot of the steam out of the story. Imo.


this

#265
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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People landed on Ilos expecting to find something Prothean related, people did not expect to find the Reaper-king living on the Citadel.

#266
dreamgazer

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Lizardviking wrote...

People landed on Ilos expecting to find something Prothean related, people did not expect to find the Reaper-king living on the Citadel.


Why wouldn't you, after the Reapers have obtained control of the Citadel?

Living on? Nah.  Current residing on? Very possible, especially after seeing the row of organic bodies leading forward. 

#267
ShadowLordXII

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I understand the spirit of the developer's response and yes, there is a difference between an amateur and a professional developer. Developers likely start out with lots of ideas, but have to downsize due to the context of budget and time-frame. So when some "super-fan" shows up and says that your hard work and effort sucks, here's how I would do things way better, the developer has a right to be offended.

But Gerry Pugliese does not speak for all "armchair designers".

Take BelatedMedia's "What If" take on the Star Wars Prequels. It's universally agreed that the films were inferior to the original trilogy and each episode had inherent problems with characters, plot, setting, and etc. But BM isn't trying to say that George Lucas sucks as a writer and merely did their "What If" Takes for recreational exploration on how to make the Prequels not suck that takes George's concepts, themes and ideas and tweaks them so that the theoretical films would have more life, substance and cohesion to them.

As far as the developer's comments on a finite budget are concerned, why isn't "so and so" possible? How come BW had a budget to give Liara, Ashley and Kaiden a legit love scene, but Garrus, Tali and other LI's were only given "Fade to Black" scenes? How come the former three characters were given more budget priority? How come you had enough of a budget for StarChild, but not for a true utilization of the War Assets? How come you had enough of a budget for Rachni Queen Clone, but not for Tali's face? Or enough of a budget for Kai Leng, but not another squadmember?

I won't pretend to know everything that happens in Game Development and I see what the developer is saying. But if a game like Colonial Marines, Soul Calibur V or Sonic 06 sucks, then why shouldn't someone be able to make up their own private alternative that asks, "What If this game/movie didn't suck?" It won't change reality, but it's not doing any harm to that developer's earnings and chances are, most people won't even read it.

Or how about "Armchair" Reinterpretations that focus on story rather than actual mechanics of gameplay? Especially if it's a terrible story like FFXIII or the endings to ME3 or even that Spiderman Comic: One More Day? I somewhat view this as more akin to a restuarant customer who sees a hard-working chef, tastes his food, doesn't like something in it and asks why it can't be prepared in another way or why it doesn't have a certain ingrediant. That's not to say that the chef is terrible (unless he really is that bad, in which case he'll be fired soon anyway), but customers do have a right to ask questions about the food that they're paying to eat right?

Now without the context of budget, time restraints or clashing team vision then amatuer writers/fans don't truly understand game development or it's hickups. But that doesn't make all of us spoiled and self-indulged losers who think that we know better. I won't pretend that some of us aren't, but does that mean we can't be critical of something that sucks or try to make something better even if only to appeal to what we personally wanted from whatever turned out to suck and for no other comercial gain?

#268
chemiclord

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I do believe that the developer's response was specifically aimed at the 500+ page list of corrections from a "fan," I don't think it was intended as a general chastising of fan bases as a whole.

#269
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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dreamgazer wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

People landed on Ilos expecting to find something Prothean related, people did not expect to find the Reaper-king living on the Citadel.


Why wouldn't you, after the Reapers have obtained control of the Citadel?

Living on? Nah.  Current residing on? Very possible, especially after seeing the row of organic bodies leading forward. 


It is a rather important detail. People don't expect the Reaper leader to actually live on the citadel since it feels like it goes against what they've learned in ME1, and Bioware did not do much to try to explain how all that worked.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 27 janvier 2014 - 12:55 .


#270
chemiclord

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dreamgazer wrote...

Living on? Nah.  Current residing on? Very possible, especially after seeing the row of organic bodies leading forward. 


The point I'm trying to make here isn't that the Catalyst or Vigil is good storytelling.  In fact, they're both BAD storytelling.

I could accept saying one is definitely WORSE (and would even agree), but to loathe one and love the other doesn't entirely follow for me.

Modifié par chemiclord, 27 janvier 2014 - 12:56 .


#271
Argentoid

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Lizardviking wrote...

People landed on Ilos expecting to find something Prothean related, people did not expect to find the Reaper-king living on the Citadel.


The moment I finished ME2, the moment I realised that ME3 would have some kind of DEM ending where you would meet the creator of the Reapers.

Yes, I swear, I thought of that.

Modifié par Argentoid, 27 janvier 2014 - 12:56 .


#272
liggy002

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You can point to time and money all that you want. I will agree that these are, obviously, the major factors that affect game production. Still, I see other projects, such as the Witcher 3, and I know that ME3 could have been a far better game. Yes, development is a highly involved and time consuming process, but the main fault lies with the publisher. The fact of the matter is that ME3 was rushed and it suffered in quality as a result. The publisher did not give Bioware enough room to breathe (development time) and they ran out of time.  The result is that rushed mess of an ending. While it is true that greater expenses will cut into your bottom line profit, it should not be forgotten that "going the extra mile" will preserve your customer loyalty. To sum up, if you ****** off your fans, you will lose out on future sales.

Modifié par liggy002, 27 janvier 2014 - 01:26 .


#273
chris2365

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liggy002 wrote...

You can point to time and money all that you want. I will agree that these are, obviously, the major factors that affect game production. Still, I see other projects, such as the Witcher 3, and I know that ME3 could have been a far better game. Yes, development is a highly involved and time consuming process, but the main fault lies with the publisher. The fact of the matter is that ME3 was rushed and it suffered in quality as a result. The publisher did not give Bioware enough room to breathe (development time) and they ran out of time.  The result is that rushed mess of an ending. While it is true that greater expenses will cut into your bottom line profit, it should not be forgotten that "going the extra mile" will preserve your customer loyalty. To sum up, if you ****** off your fans, you will lose out on future sales.


I think that is the main thing I pointed out in the OP. It's one thing to give extra time and money just for it's own sake, and it's another to give extra time and money to acheive Mass Effect 3's scope and ambition, and I think Bioware/EA underestimated what some fans wanted.

#274
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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chris2365 wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

You can point to time and money all that you want. I will agree that these are, obviously, the major factors that affect game production. Still, I see other projects, such as the Witcher 3, and I know that ME3 could have been a far better game. Yes, development is a highly involved and time consuming process, but the main fault lies with the publisher. The fact of the matter is that ME3 was rushed and it suffered in quality as a result. The publisher did not give Bioware enough room to breathe (development time) and they ran out of time.  The result is that rushed mess of an ending. While it is true that greater expenses will cut into your bottom line profit, it should not be forgotten that "going the extra mile" will preserve your customer loyalty. To sum up, if you ****** off your fans, you will lose out on future sales.


I think that is the main thing I pointed out in the OP. It's one thing to give extra time and money just for it's own sake, and it's another to give extra time and money to acheive Mass Effect 3's scope and ambition, and I think Bioware/EA underestimated what some fans wanted.


Underestimated or simply mistaken. I think they might've went into ME3's development phase early on, when they didn't get enough feedback on ME2 yet. It's only a guess on my part, but it seems like they were under the impression that people hated it or something. Maybe they listened to the wrong focus groups or read message boards like this one. Either way, there wouldn't be that much of a window for ME2 to settle in fans' minds yet (it was released in early 2010. Not sure when they started working on ME3). I bet all they were hearing at the time was how ME2 was the "worst game of all time", and that they needed to "take back Mass Effect" (lol).

it's an ugly cycle though. Me2 was probably developed in relation to negative feedback to ME1 as well. I mean, we lost the Mako in that one. Some jerkass fans gave them the impression that exploration sucks.

#275
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Just to add, I wish Casey Hudson would go with his gut more. Every time I hear about the things he likes about Mass Effect, I'm in agreement. But he adjusts things according to fan feedback. It was fan feedback that got exploration changed, it was fan feedback that streamlined the hub experience a bit (Casey liked how the first two hours or so of ME1 was just small quests and dialogue on the Citadel. He wants people to get lost and immersed in it, like it's a real place. But people complained about it. Not enough action apparently). Last but not least, one of his favorite characters is Jack.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 27 janvier 2014 - 02:56 .