430 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

TheChris92 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

No Chris, he's talking about alot of times no matter what you picked in the wheel, Shepard said the exact same dialog.

That's not how he worded it though. 

"Dialog Wheel Disconnect", wherein what is on the wheel in NO way matches what is spoken by Shepard,

 I understood this as a complaint about what Shepard says, does not match up to the respective response you choose in the wheel itself. In other words -- Paraphrasing being misleading. If that wasn't what he was talking about then he needs elaborate himself.

Ah, if that then I also agree as the paraphrasing was horrible in the ME series, Deus Ex:HR did a good job with paraphrasing as it would show what Jensen would say when you selected an option, something that DA:I will also have.

[Dean_the_Young]

StreetMagic wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Take Jack. (Oo-er.) I never saw Jack as 'the Human Biotic.' While that covered Kaiden's role and premise as the mature, exceptional, representative figure who identified with and represented the biotic population as a whole. He was polite, measured, and restrained, just as they had to be. He was well intentioned and defferential. He had an undercurrent and latent potential to want to throw off those self-imposed restrictions, rise above the skeptics and oppressive authority figures, and use that power as he saw best. That was being a biotic in Humanity. That was being Human in the Council system. That was being a Human Biotic.

That was never Jack.

Kaidan didn't turn out to be a compelling character for many (and even now, looking at that infographic, he's still the most unpopular.). I remember Hudson stating in some interview how often he died in Virmire. I think his general story is cool personally, but it didn't really click enough.

How does Kaiden not being interesting challenge his narrative role as the expy for Human biotics? It might be fair to say that the plot thread of the plight of Human biotics was never particularly compelling for most characters... but that doesn't mean a more interesting human biotic character becomes the better thematic representative for them. It may just mean that the narrative thread of human biotics was a minor, largely uninteresting one that was dropped after ME1. Jack certainly didn't pick up any of the threads begun in ME1, and ME3 doesn't even remember them.

That's where Jack comes in. It's a ressurection of the human biotic theme, in a better way. As for her being a Cerberus labrat, that makes it even better. It's part of the human biotic theme too, in terms of how humans themselves were trying to push the boundaries to get results. I think that's more compelling than Vyrrnus. Vyrrnus was just being a Turian dick. Cerberus was obsessed specifically for human dominance reasons. It goes back to other shady things Alliance and Cerberus had been doing to get a leg up on everyone (AI research, Cerberus and Grayson in the novels, etc). Kaidan's story is tied up more in human/alien relations.

Sure... but where does any of this make Jack the better representative of Human biotics? Kaiden's politics towards the Council has parallels with Human biotics and Human society, but Jack doesn't even have that. It's not even like Teltin can make a good comparison to the plight or suffering of Human biotics either: Teltin was such an over-the-top infliction of stupid-evil suffering and abuse (and not even abuse that makes sense for its goal), while most of the Biotic suffering was tied to health complications that have largely been resolved in the backstory.  Jack really has little in common with those concerns, unlike Kaiden who identified and shared them (the migranes), and even how she comes by her powers is radically different to the meddling of Human biotics.

You've certainly made a case for why you find Jack and Cerberus more interesting, but not really how they represent the Human Biotics.

[Dean_the_Young]

Br3ad wrote...

Nah, man, Javik is hella important. We wouldn't know about the backstories of a lot of races without him being there. His revelation of asari being made as a race of strippers turned saviors was humorous, and definitely needed for many a online arguments about asari as the dominant race of the galaxy.

Point conceded.

[Fixers0]

RiouHotaru wrote...
ME3 took away the illusion entirely, but made each dialog option distinct and different.  No longer is there a waffling in tone or intent, the messages, while few in choice, are very separate from one another.  And yes, there is more auto-dialog.  But in my personal opinion?

Have we played the same game? because last time I checked the very first dialogue option provided in ME3's prologue resulted in the following two options:

"You know we're not Ready if it is them, not by a long shot" (Paragon)
"It's the Reapers and we're not ready for them, not by a long shot" (Renegade)

Wow, that's big difference, it's worth nothing that none of the five dialogue wheel option provided in the prologue invoke a different response bt the reciever. The worst one must be the fifth, were the difference between the Paragon and Renegade exists out of but a single word.

[Dean_the_Young]

StreetMagic wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Kaiden's politics towards the Council has parallels with Human biotics and Human society

No, it doesn't. You're seeing things too much in a Paragon light. Kaidan's always been set up as the human apologist - a part humanity or Shepard wasn't forced to follow. Ashley (in me1) was the one who'd snicker about everything in the Council (whether in her face to face dialogues or her banter on the Citadel) while Kaidan would stand in awe of them or make excuses for Udina. That was his real role as a human. The Apologist.

Which is how Biotics were supposed to ingratiate themselves to Human society as a whole: by being differential to the common concerns, conciliatory, and deferring to authority to deal with things right. Taking a strong stance and assertiveness is what fuels the fears of Biotics, so being the Paragon is the ideal way for Paragons to act. Kaiden is a textbook case of the 'disprove the suspicion by example' method of dealing with prejudice, which entails a mix of the moral virtue and personal repression to avoid conflict with the established authority in order to placate fears. In species terms, that's the Council, but the same relationship exists for Biotics.

It's the Renegade Kaiden that breaks free of that deferrence and reveals what he's really thinking and wanting. The one who has been patient long enough, that is no longer self-conscience about the identity, and wants changes now- that's the mentality and tension that the Biotic terrorists and cult have, and why they're scary (and analogues for Humanity). They were a potent force, they were chaffing at the social restrictions, and they were exasperated by what they saw as an uncarring and/or indifferent leadership that wouldn't change if they didn't act.

For the politics, that sort of Renegadism applies to the Council. But for Kaiden, it also reflects his identity as Human Biotic and his approach to society. Which makes sense, sense there were notable parallels between the relationships of Human Biotics to Humanity as with Humanity to the Council.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fixers0 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
ME3 took away the illusion entirely, but made each dialog option distinct and different.  No longer is there a waffling in tone or intent, the messages, while few in choice, are very separate from one another.  And yes, there is more auto-dialog.  But in my personal opinion?

Have we played the same game? because last time I checked the very first dialogue option provided in ME3's prologue resulted in the following two options:

"You know we're not Ready if it is them, not by a long shot" (Paragon)
"It's the Reapers and we're not ready for them, not by a long shot" (Renegade)

Wow, that's big difference, it's worth nothing that none of the five dialogue wheel option provided in the prologue invoke a different response bt the reciever. The worst one must be the fifth, were the difference between the Paragon and Renegade exists out of but a single word.

Did you pay attention to the dialogue exchange that followed it, and compare/contrast the differences between both what Shepard says (the autodialogue) and the responses of the other party?

Because Riou wasn't referring to the number of dialogue wheel options, but how the conversations differed along the tracts.

[Fixers0]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Did you pay attention to the dialogue exchange that followed it, and compare/contrast the differences between both what Shepard says (the autodialogue) and the responses of the other party?

Yes

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because Riou wasn't referring to the number of dialogue wheel options, but how the conversations differed along the tracts.

Indeed, which is exactly what my response was about, if you would have actually read my post. None of the five standard dialogue options present  in the prologue invoke a different response.

Modifié par Fixers0, 26 janvier 2014 - 04:36 .

[von uber]

StreetMagic wrote...

That's also why Liara makes me sick in ME1.

Blimey, must have been a right mess around your keyboard when you finished the game then

You do know there is the part when you say 'I am not going to be a puppet of the Asari' and she apologises? So the game recognises it at least.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]StreetMagic wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]StreetMagic wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Kaiden's politics towards the Council has parallels with Human biotics and Human society

[/quote]

No, it doesn't. You're seeing things too much in a Paragon light. Kaidan's always been set up as the human apologist - a part humanity or Shepard wasn't forced to follow. Ashley (in me1) was the one who'd snicker about everything in the Council (whether in her face to face dialogues or her banter on the Citadel) while Kaidan would stand in awe of them or make excuses for Udina. That was his real role as a human. The Apologist.
[/quote]Which is how Biotics were supposed to ingratiate themselves to Human society as a whole: by being differential to the common concerns, conciliatory, and deferring to authority to deal with things right. Taking a strong stance and assertiveness is what fuels the fears of Biotics, so being the Paragon is the ideal way for Paragons to act. Kaiden is a textbook case of the 'disprove the suspicion by example' method of dealing with prejudice, which entails a mix of the moral virtue and personal repression to avoid conflict with the established authority in order to placate fears. In species terms, that's the Council, but the same relationship exists for Biotics.

It's the Renegade Kaiden that breaks free of that deferrence and reveals what he's really thinking and wanting. The one who has been patient long enough, that is no longer self-conscience about the identity, and wants changes now- that's the mentality and tension that the Biotic terrorists and cult have, and why they're scary (and analogues for Humanity). They were a potent force, they were chaffing at the social restrictions, and they were exasperated by what they saw as an uncarring and/or indifferent leadership that wouldn't change if they didn't act.

For the politics, that sort of Renegadism applies to the Council. But for Kaiden, it also reflects his identity as Human Biotic and his approach to society. Which makes sense, sense there were notable parallels between the relationships of Human Biotics to Humanity as with Humanity to the Council.

[/quote]

You almost convinced me, but his deferrence isn't to be admired imo. At least Jack keeps her edge when she comes to similar conclusions (I mean, Kahlee tries to get her to stop cussing and superficial things like that and Jack defers to her. And romanced Jack jokes a bit about her changes. "You just want to see me in an Alliance uniform, don't you? Perv.."
[/quote]Ok. So what?

The point of being a representative character isn't to be admired, edgy, or interesting. It's to be a more accurate reflection of the primary themes and concerns of the subject being represented. Jack's character identity is great for being the Cerberus Victim, but it doesn't have terribly much to do with or in common with Human Biotics as a whole.

[quote]
I'll take that over Alenko any day. But this may come down to Paragon/Renegade alignment. They both can carry the theme, but in different ways. The good thing is, they both hate Cerberus. That's a whole other (unproductive) way to carry the theme forward.
[/quote]
Besides the adopted persona and aspect of the Biotic (and Human) mentality being expressed, how does it matter at all to the question of which human, biotic character is the narrative reflection of Human Biotics?

It's completely fine to like Jack a billion times better than boring old Alenko, but that doesn't make her the thematic Human Biotic character. Having the traits of a group isn't enough: there's a reason that Tali is The Quarian, intended to represent or describe the common-quarian viewpoints and opinions, while the Admiralty Board admirals are a bunch of charicatures rather a collective representation of Quarian views.


[quote]
But back to "deference" angle. Humanity doesn't necessarily need to behave their best. That's one of cool themes in the first novel, with Ambassador Goyle. She almost does the same thing, but then stops herself.. Humanity doesn't need to apologize for being humanity. They can play along, but they don't necessarily need to be Paragon or whatnot. And in the games, that's always been left in the player's hands too. Thankfully.
[/quote]

That's also why Liara makes me sick in ME1. She's kind of like Wynne in Dragon Age.. trying to push you into living up to some Asari ideal of Spectres (like Wynne does with Wardens).

[/quote]
At worst, Liara in ME1 just tried to passively guilt you into it by going 'this is why people fear you humans.' She never personally disliked it. (Or at least, didn't care when it came to, well, Shepard.)

Honestly, I think it would have been more interesting had she implicitly been trying to pull a Benezia for Shepard.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fixers0 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Did you pay attention to the dialogue exchange that followed it, and compare/contrast the differences between both what Shepard says (the autodialogue) and the responses of the other party?

Yes

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because Riou wasn't referring to the number of dialogue wheel options, but how the conversations differed along the tracts.

Indeed, which is exactly what my response was about, if you would have actually read my post. None of the five standard dialogue options present  in the prologue invoke a different response.

Oh, I did read your post. It was just so awkwardly argued that I couldn't tell if you were rying to argue a different point entirely. There was the factual inaccuracy as well, since there are responder differences in the Earth section, but your post could have been read to be making an entirely different argument than what you apparently intended.

[Dean_the_Young]

What is it Aethelya says back to her?

Liara: "Shepard listens to me!"
A: "And yet you're single."


It's a pity you have to hit some subtle ME2 trigger for that, IIRC.

[RiouHotaru]

TheChris92 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

No Chris, he's talking about alot of times no matter what you picked in the wheel, Shepard said the exact same dialog.

That's not how he worded it though. 

"Dialog Wheel Disconnect", wherein what is on the wheel in NO way matches what is spoken by Shepard,

I understood this as a complaint about what Shepard says, does not match up to the respective response you choose in the wheel itself. In other words -- Paraphrasing being misleading. If that wasn't what he was talking about then he needs elaborate himself. But I do get the problem about the middle option sometimes being exactly the same as, say the upper right option. Something I wish they would have worked with a bit further in the sequels.

Yeah, ME2 had a lot of the paraphrasing being utterly dissimilar, and sometimes completely different than what Shepard said, the most infamous example of which is the dialog wheel choices when initiating a relationship with Thane.  The upper-right choice, which allows you to begin a relationship arc, says "I want you, Thane."  But what Shepard actually says?  Is completely different.  But the paraphrasing is so misleading I know it caused quite a few people to avoid it because they were worried what Shepard would say.  Luckily, what she says is far better said.  But the paraphrasing was horrid.

ME1 had a lot of "No-matter-what-you-pick-Shepard's-line-is-exactly-the-same" Which I refer to as "Fake-wheel" because in those instances there's just NO point in picking whatever.  The dialog wheel might as well not exist, aka "Fake" because your choice results in absolutely nothing different being said or reacted to.

"Fake Wheel" = Response the same regardless of choice

"Dialog Wheel Disconnect" = Paraphrasing is misleading

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 26 janvier 2014 - 06:40 .

[Fixers0]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Oh, I did read your post. It was just so awkwardly argued that I couldn't tell if you were rying to argue a different point entirely. There was the factual inaccuracy as well, since there are responder differences in the Earth section, but your post could have been read to be making an entirely different argument than what you apparently intended.

Your point?

In the stock prologue the 1st, 2nd,3rd and 5th dialogue all lead to same reaction, the 4th dialogue options does indeed have a very minor difference but after that the conversation goes on in the same manner regardless of chosen dialogue  and with no further choices.

Modifié par Fixers0, 26 janvier 2014 - 06:41 .

[Fixers0]

RiouHotaru wrote...
ME1 had a lot of "No-matter-what-you-pick-Shepard's-line-is-exactly-the-same" Which I refer to as "Fake-wheel" because in those instances there's just NO point in picking whatever.  The dialog wheel might as well not exist, aka "Fake" because your choice results in absolutely nothing different being said or reacted to.

Unfortunantly,  the amount of times in Mass Effect 1 that all dialogues would lead to the same result is quite low and when you offset them against the total amount of dialogue wheel options present in the game, it's rather insignificant.

[marcelo caldas]

ME3 problem was bad writing, bad ideas, etc.
If you copy and paste Oblivion's (the movie) ending into ME3 it improves 100%, and with less scenes and less dialog, less budget, less time to develop.  Just shepard, Anderson and AI (not starbrat, just a regular AI and no hologram).

So, the article means nothing, says nothing.
Hire better writers next time BW, they'll come up with something good and match it with your schedule/budget.

Modifié par caldas, 26 janvier 2014 - 07:18 .

[dreamgazer]

Fixers0 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
ME1 had a lot of "No-matter-what-you-pick-Shepard's-line-is-exactly-the-same" Which I refer to as "Fake-wheel" because in those instances there's just NO point in picking whatever.  The dialog wheel might as well not exist, aka "Fake" because your choice results in absolutely nothing different being said or reacted to.

Unfortunantly,  the amount of times in Mass Effect 1 that all dialogues would lead to the same result is quite low and when you offset them against the total amount of dialogue wheel options present in the game, it's rather insignificant.

False.

[NeonFlux117]

caldas wrote...

ME3 problem was bad writing, bad ideas, etc.
If you copy and paste Oblivion's (the movie) ending into ME3 it improves 100%, and with less scenes and less dialog, less budget, less time to develop.  Just shepard, Anderson and AI (not starbrat, just a regular AI and no hologram).

So, the article means nothing, says nothing. Hire better writers next time BW.

Yep. Scrubz are gonna scrub. Mac Walters is King of Scrubs.

Derpy 'rieting' is just that. Derpy.

Best thing BW could do is go get back Drew K. Put him as lead writer. Put back Mac to character writer.

But.... EA and stuff.

[dreamgazer]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Derpy 'rieting' is just that. Derpy.

Best thing BW could do is go get back Drew K. 

How is bringing back the guy responsible for telepathic plants, mental ciphers, Project Lazarus, "Ah yes, Reapers" and the pointless plot of ME2 going to make thing any less "derpy" again?

But, yeah, Drew K. fanboys are certainly going to scrub. 

[dreamgazer]

caldas wrote...

If you copy and paste Oblivion's (the movie) ending into ME3 it improves 100%

LOLwut?  How does the very minor differences between the two endings, aside from the bull involving the clones' memories, improve things in any way?

[AlanC9]

dreamgazer wrote...


How is bringing back the guy responsible for telepathic plants, mental ciphers, Project Lazarus, "Ah yes, Reapers" and the pointless plot of ME2 going to make thing any less "derpy" again?

Because NeonFlux117 likes Drew K.'s brand of derp?